God’s Own Unwillingness to Show “proof” of His Existence.

Author: Stephen

Posts

Total: 104
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,322
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2


Example:Thomas, a disciple of Christ.

Thomas had witnessed with his own eyes “miracles” performed by Jesus such as raising - back to life, the dead 4 days old  rotting corpse of Lazarus the friend that “Jesus loved” and wept over. (No mention of Jesus ever shedding a single tear over “the greatest prophet" his cousin John the Baptist).

Jesus, Thomas’ rabbi , is crucified, dead and entombed. And then,depending on which version we choose to believe, Jesus first appears either to, Mary, or some Marys’ or Peter or Cleopas etc? But suddenly, Thomas,on hearing about the once “dead” corpse of Christ walking around and being alive again,   refused to believe Jesus is indeed alive after the crucifixion and after laying for three days in a private tomb belonging to a rich friend in private walled garden..(Joseph of Arimathea obviously won’t be entering into the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 19:24).

Thomas did not believe it was truly him despite being told, twice!, prior to the incident by Jesus son of god, that he would rise again in three days.!? And despite his own witnessing of the miracle of miracles the“raising of Lazarus”?. Why follow a man right up until his death, hanging on every word of all his preaching that he will rise from the dead, then suddenly,  and without explanation, refuse to believe what  he was being told by Mary, or the Mary’s or Peter or Cleopas or anyone? There is no indication given before this time that Thomas had any reason to disbelieve or “doubt” his master god/Jesus.

Oddly, when Mary – the first to see him- tried to touch Jesus on seeing him in the private garden owned by his rich friend, he refused her,but when Thomas required physical proof Jesus invited Thomas to touch him and feel the wounds in his body, as to  offer physical proof.

As is usual with these ambiguous half stories we are never told what happened there-after and we are simply left with  Jesus saying: , “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”.John20:29.What does that actually mean? Can we only take that to mean believed through faith alone and without a single piece of hard physical evidence?

The point is, why doesn’t god extend and afford the same privilege of proof to humans alive today?

Those today that doubt gods/Jesus' existence are no different than Thomas,requiring physical proof and he was a disciple of Jesus himself.   If Thomas had been born just a year on from the crucifixion, or even living today, would he be refused a place in the heavenly paradise because he would not believe for the lack of physical proof?

Is it too much to ask and question? I am often accused by Christians of“mocking and humiliating” them (all untrue ), but at least I am not killing them.     Yet Paul made it his mission to seek out and destroy Christians although he was born after the death and accession of Christ. Then one day, without even asking never mind believing, in a flash he got a visit from god himself !!!!!? Again, how this happened also varies depending on who’s “gospel truth” one chooses to believe, but it was an appearance by the lord god himself, all the same... according to the bible.

Why isn’t Jesus  willing to show the disbelievers today the same degree of physical proof? Why should we be treated any different from Thomas –a disciple - and Paul a disbelieving persecutor and murderer of early Christians?

Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,949
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
God was active as back in the day.

He revealed himself to heaps of people.
He even got all them guys to do that book thing for him.
Then nothinggggggggggggģggggggggggggggg.

Not a thing. 
 
It's almost like. 
Well. 
It's almost like he died.  He cease to  be. 

He obviously had a greater effection for people whom lived some one maybe two thousand years ago.
 
He doesn't care much for the today's run of mill Christians.

His not even going to do the second coming thing in our life time.  

I was hoping  he might do a update on that book he had them guys do for him. 
Like. 
A book of Eric 17 : 33.

And have like ( Rodney write a few versus )
And Sandra.
Cecil and shlt.

But No..  NOTHING.
 
I bet he is to fixated on gazing at his collection of stars that he seemed to put a incredible  lot of effort into  to bother about the silly humans.  
 
Buttttttttt. 
Just because ya can't prove he is " still around " doesn't mean we should not ummm, ( blindly )  obey to everything he asks of you for the rest of your life. 

Just pretend he is there.
 




FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 5,122
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8

Why doesn't God appear on the Jim Bakker Show in a burning bush?



fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
Y’all ignore that Jesus told Thomas that he was blessed for seeing and believing, but that the greater blessing is had by faith when not seeing. .
“Faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen.”
why would God appear to you with your indifference?
Who are you to tell God he does not speak?
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,322
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
Y’all ignore that Jesus told Thomas that he was blessed for seeing and believing, but that the greater blessing is had by faith when not seeing. .

Well I had guessed that it was inevitable that the matter of faith would be mentioned.   But  how could the point of faith have been" ignored " when the intended meaning to John20:29  is, as I clearly point out above, about faith. Paragraph 5 #1.  

Yet Jesus mentions nothing to Thomas about his lack of  faith on such a miraculous and momentous occasion! . Not a single word.  Yet Jesus is quick to  snap on other occasions when it come to the  lack of faith among his apostles.  For instance, on at least three occasions Jesus reprimands his apostles concerning their lack of faith. 

It appears that          "Y`all ignore"  :

Jesus' response to The apostles "worrying" about tomorrow :
Matthew 6:30: “Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

Jesus' response to The apostles "worrying" that they may lose their lives in a storm:
Matthew 8:26: “And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

Jesus' response to The apostles "worrying" that they hadn't any bread:
Matthew 16:8: “Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?

Luke repeats Matthew 6:30 where the apostles are " "worrying" about tomorrow:
Luke 12:28: “If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?

All the above seem reasonable things for a mere mortal to be concerned about yet they are reprimanded by Jesus for their lack of faith. Thomas on the other hand -who should know better - because he seen a "dead" man being raised to life with his own eyes - receives no such reprimand.  Nothing.   Jesus, in this instance it appears, simply tells Thomas to stop being silly and invites him to put his fingers in his wounds. No, there isn't any  "O ye of little faith" directed at Thomas, instead, to have a lack of faith on this occasion seems to be a cause for celebration!


"Faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen"

This kind of faith>> Jesus cried: " My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me"?  


why would God appear to you with your indifference?

Only "indifference"?   Why would god himself  appear to someone that had made it his life's work to hunt down and murder Christians?  

Paul Tells of His Past Life
Acts 22: 4 “I worked hard and killed men and women who believed as I believe today. I put them in chains and sent them to prison.

The Church Persecuted and Scattered Acts 8:1-3 
On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria.  Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him.  But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off both men and women and put them in prison. 

I can only assume being "indifferent" towards Christians and Jesus is a much more serious offence to god than hunting down and killing and imprisoning members of his flock. 



 








zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,275
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@fauxlaw
Some might regard "faith" as wishful thinking.

And who are we?.....We are here.....And as far as we are able to know, a GOD isn't.

Faith or knowledge.....Your choice.
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 167
Posts: 3,837
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
It is easy. If God doesn't want to show that he exists, then we wouldn't want to believe in God. If God actually wants people to believe in him, he should be assertive about it, not whatever this is happening.
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@fauxlaw
why would God appear to you with your indifference?
Who are you to tell God he does not speak?
IF some god(s) exist and IF said god(s) care if I believe they exist THEN the most expedient path to that out come would be a direct personal dialogue.

IF some god(s) exist and IF said god(s) are indifferent about my belief in them or unable to communicate with me THEN it is identical from my perspective to a total absence of god(s).
“Faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen.”
Faith, as used in this context, would seem to be a possible evidence for literally any position and therefore does not actually act as definitive (read sufficient) evidence for any.
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 5,122
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8

God spoke to me when I was 12. He said that he was killing my 7 year old cousin with leukemia and there was nothing I could do about it.


secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@FLRW
That seems like the act of a right bastard.
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@secularmerlin
Faith, as used in this context, would seem to be a possible evidence for literally any position and therefore does not actually act as definitive (read sufficient) evidence for any.
You have defined belief, not faith. One can believe anything they wish, but that belief, alone, compels no one to action. Further, belief is not necessarily linked to truth, whereas, "And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope  for things which are not seen, which are true." - Alma 32: 21

Faith must be expressed in only things which are already true, or it is not faith.
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@fauxlaw
Faith must be expressed in only things which are already true, or it is not faith.
And how do we determine if a thing is true?
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@secularmerlin
And how do we determine if a thing is true?
Ask someone who knows what is true. Read James 1: 2-5. Actually the entire chapter is relevant, so read it all.
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@fauxlaw
What does asking someone something have to do with the bible? The bible is not a someone. 
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@fauxlaw
How do you determine whether or not someone, once you have distinguished them from a book, knows what is true?
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,303
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@fauxlaw
but that belief, alone, compels no one to action.
What if I believe you will attempt to kill me in my sleep?

Wouldn't that seem to "compel me to action"?
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,303
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@secularmerlin
IF some god(s) exist and IF said god(s) care if I believe they exist THEN the most expedient path to that out come would be a direct personal dialogue.
I'm still waiting for my talking donkey and holy hit-man.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,303
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Intelligence_06
If God doesn't want to show that he exists, then we wouldn't want to believe in God. If God actually wants people to believe in him, he should be assertive about it, not whatever this is happening.
Good point.
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@secularmerlin
What does asking someone something have to do with the bible? The bible is not a someone. 
Did I say this process of dicovery of truth is limited to the Bible? Any truth can be obtained by this means described by James. And here's a virtual repeat, with some addiotnal information, from the Book of Mormon, Moroni 10: 4, 5.
It's a simple formula:
Read and study, ponder what is read.
Ask God, in the name of Christ if what you have read is true or not, but there are conditional commitments:
1. Ask in faith 
2. Be sincere
3. Have real intent to know.
4. If your query is a sincere desire to know, the truth will be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5. By that power, the truth of all things may be known.
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@3RU7AL
 to your #16, First, common sense should tell you that even if I had such an idea, I could not carry it out. Have to find you, first. But, since your belief is not true, it is not going to happen. Therefore, what action is needed on your part?
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,303
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@fauxlaw
1. Ask in faith 
2. Be sincere
3. Have real intent to know.
4. If your query is a sincere desire to know, the truth will be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5. By that power, the truth of all things may be known.
What conflict resolution mechanism do you rely on if two or more "true believers" use this method and divine conflicting information?
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@fauxlaw
Faith must be expressed in only things which are already true, or it is not faith.

Ask in faith 
Why are you smuggling in this new definition of faith? How do you ask in faith about something you are unclear about the truth of if you can only ever Express faith about things you already know are true?

This raises more questions than it answers and we haven't even touched on what a holy ghost is or how you know there is one.

3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,303
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@fauxlaw
Therefore, what action is needed on your part?
It would seem to warrant some defensive strategy.
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@3RU7AL
Some "true believers" may call themselves such, but, if they don't follow the path outlined, are they, really? Faith is much more than merely saying "Jesus! I believe!" One's actions, not their words, demonstrate, their faith, or lack of it even when claimed.
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@secularmerlin
Express faith about things you already know are true?
If you already have a perfect knowledge of something, there is no need to apply failth, Faith, as I've said, is applied to things which are unseen, but which are true without our knowledge of it. Plenty of unknowns out there that can be known. Start there with faith, and if it is not true, you will have no resulting knowledge.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,303
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@fauxlaw
Some "true believers" may call themselves such, but, if they don't follow the path outlined, are they, really? Faith is much more than merely saying "Jesus! I believe!" One's actions, not their words, demonstrate, their faith, or lack of it even when claimed.
So, would you say that "true-true believers" will always divine the same answer?

And the only way to detect the real "true-true believer" is to wait for confirmation of their predictions?

Are real "true-true believers" almost never mistaken?
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,569
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
-->
@Stephen
Why isn’t Jesus  willing to show the disbelievers today the same degree of physical proof? Why should we be treated any different from Thomas –a disciple - and Paul a disbelieving persecutor and murderer of early Christians?
if you put in no effort to know Jesus, why should he reach out to you?
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,303
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Stephen
Why isn’t Jesus  willing to show the disbelievers today the same degree of physical proof? Why should we be treated any different from Thomas –a disciple - and Paul a disbelieving persecutor and murderer of early Christians?
Great question.
Soluminsanis
Soluminsanis's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 73
0
1
5
Soluminsanis's avatar
Soluminsanis
0
1
5
-->
@Dr.Franklin
"if you put in no effort to know Jesus, why should he reach out to you?"


OHHHH!! 


(MIKE DROP)

3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,303
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Dr.Franklin
if you put in no effort to know Jesus, why should he reach out to you?
How much effort did Balaam demonstrate?