Why Did Jesus Have To Die To Forgive Our Sins?.....

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,312

3

2

04.03.2021 08:49AM

3

2

04.03.2021 08:49AM

......it simply makes no sense!

This is a question that has niggled at me for years but I have never once read a convincing answer explaining why he had to die ?

By all accounts it stems back to the Garden of Eden and "original sin", but this doesn't explain why Jesus had to die for forgiveness our sins.

God- being god could just as well have said - `ok Stephen all that was in the past and you are no more responsible for what those pair - Adam & Eve -did back at the beginning no more than you are responsible for the slave trade that I am still allowing to happen over a quarter of the globe' , - but he didn't. Why?.

Odd it is that he was making "new" covenants every once in a while but never included a pardon for the past.

We are called to "wash away our sins" by John the Baptist yet when we undergo this ritual, we , it seems, still need a man to then suffer and die for our forgiveness for sins that have already been "washed away" in the baptism ritual.

#2

Debates: 167

Posts: 3,837

5

8

11

04.03.2021 09:31AM

5

8

11

04.03.2021 09:31AM

Christianity only became popular after some Roman monarch said he’d believe in it. If it’s be true then everyone would believe in it.

Topic's author

#3

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,312

3

2

04.03.2021 10:49AM

3

2

04.03.2021 10:49AM

-->

@Intelligence_06

Christianity only became popular after some Roman monarch said he’d believe in it.

Yep. I know. Milvian Bridge ect etc

I want to know why Jesus, it is said, had to pay for our forgiveness with his life?

#4

Debates: 167

Posts: 3,837

5

8

11

04.03.2021 11:41AM

5

8

11

04.03.2021 11:41AM

-->

@Stephen

Because the whole story is used to unite the will of the people and not trying to be truthful to everything. It doesn’t have to be true. The whole motive is just to make people do good things and not bad things.

Why would a god first not directly and reliably tell you that it is real and that religion is the correct one, but punish you for eating a hamburger or having an orgy with 5 other men? Exactly no. The whole thing is based on the morality of the past and isn’t even reliable now.

#5

FLRW

Debates: 0

Posts: 5,087

3

4

8

FLRW

04.03.2021 01:33PM

3

4

8

04.03.2021 01:33PM

The promise of Christianity is that all believers will someday be raised from the dead. God demonstrated his power to bring the perished back to life, and these ten accounts from the Bible prove it.
The most famous return, of course, is that of Jesus raised from the dead. Through his sacrificial death and resurrection, he conquered sin forever, making it possible for his followers to know eternal life.
But who did Elijah and Elisha have a hand in bringing back to life? Who did Jesus call back from the dead? And who did Peter and Paul resurrect? There are ten Bible episodes of people God raised back to life.

Well, that is how the myth goes anyway.

Topic's author

#6

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,312

3

2

04.03.2021 02:31PM

3

2

04.03.2021 02:31PM

-->

@FLRW

@Intelligence_06

You are both preaching to the converted.

I was hoping someone could give me a real reason why Jesus had to die for us to have forgiveness from the theist perspective.

#7

Debates: 2

Posts: 2,140

3

7

04.03.2021 05:26PM

3

7

04.03.2021 05:26PM

-->

@Stephen

.

Stephen,

I think we discussed this matter a while back, where I proposed that Jesus really didn't die to begin with. What I have had to accept as a TRUE Christian, is the Biblical FACT that when Jesus was raised from His 3 day tomb nap in a Zombie form, He therefore really didn't DIE for our sins because He came back to life, and to be a true sacrifice, you have to remain DEAD!

The irony is the fact that Jesus came to planet earth to die for our sins; "It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost" 1 Timothy 1:15). BUT AGAIN, He did not truly die because He arose on the third day of dying on the cross, which is hardly a true sacrifice. Whereas, we can only wonder in how our US soldiers would have wanted the same situation to come back to life after they were killed in WW2 fighting for the USA, where this is a TRUE SACRIFICE, period!

Bottom line, JESUS DID NOT DIE in the true sense of the term to be a sacrifice, therefore He didn't die for our sins! 2+2=4, oil and water don't mix, and Christians still have our sins, period!

.

#8

Debates: 0

Posts: 2,193

3

5

04.03.2021 10:24PM

3

5

04.03.2021 10:24PM

-->

@Stephen

Well, not thinking too much into it... dying for "everyone" is the ultimate way to show you love "everyone." I can't think of another way to show that you truly love everyone. even the people that deserve hate. It's honestly how i define love. If i'd die for you, that means i love you. There are degrees to that, which makes this story interesting... bc if i knew i would die saving someone, but still did it... that means i "truly" love that person.

Topic's author

#9

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,312

3

2

04.04.2021 06:00AM

3

2

04.04.2021 06:00AM

-->

@Outplayz

[....] if i knew i would die saving someone, but still did it... that means i "truly" love that person.

I am sure most people would without thinking but I don't think love comes into it, do you really love the complete stranger that you have just saved from drowning?

But this thread is about Jesus and the need for a blood sacrifice in order for our forgiveness where don't see there is any need whatsoever for anyone to die. And oddly enough,the bible in part appears to agree with me.

Topic's author

#10

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,312

3

2

04.04.2021 06:27AM

3

2

04.04.2021 06:27AM

-->

@BrotherDThomas

Stephen,

I think we discussed this matter a while back, where I proposed that Jesus really didn't die to begin with.

We have and I agree. But there are millions of people that call themselves Christians that don't agree and from their stand point,Brother, they seem to accept that a blood sacrifice was needed in order to forgive us our sins.

What I have had to accept as a TRUE Christian, is the Biblical FACT that when Jesus was raised from His 3 day tomb nap in a Zombie form, He therefore really didn't DIE for our sins because He came back to life, and to be a true sacrifice, you have to remain DEAD!

I agree brother. I believe Jesus survived the cross and have said so many times.

............arose on the third day of dying on the cross, which is hardly a true sacrifice.

Correct, hardly giving ones life if you haven't actually give your life , is it , Brother?

Whereas, we can only wonder in how our US soldiers would have wanted the same situation to come back to life after they were killed in WW2 fighting for the USA, where this is a TRUE SACRIFICE, period!

That truly is.

Bottom line, JESUS DID NOT DIE in the true sense of the term to be a sacrifice, therefore He didn't die for our sins! 2+2=4, oil and water don't mix, and Christians still have our sins, period!

Well I would still like an explanation for why Christians believe the blood sacrifice was required to forgive us our sins.

In Mark 3:31 we hear from Jesus saying;

" Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed .....", .....but leaves out why he "must"?

How does one person dying for the forgiveness of others actually work? Why did god demand the blood sacrifice in the first place?

I personally believe all this to be a big lie and also I believe the blood sacrifice was not at all needed and is a complete fabrication made up by the biblical authors and Christians. I also believe the bible itself proves that a sacrifice wasn't needed and that it was not a case that anyone "must " die either,: such is the contradictory nature of these unreliable scriptures.

#11

zedvictor4

Debates: 22

Posts: 11,223

3

6

zedvictor4

04.04.2021 06:41AM

3

6

04.04.2021 06:41AM

-->

@Intelligence_06

Well stated.

The Jesus tale, is an archaic morality tale created by men for men.

And nowadays more or less, relevant or irrelevant depending upon the degree of religious oppression one is formatively subjected too.

And a GOD principle might be pertinent to human existence.....But why would it be that stupid?

#12

Debates: 0

Posts: 2,193

3

5

04.05.2021 04:07AM

3

5

04.05.2021 04:07AM

-->

@Stephen

I am sure most people would without thinking but I don't think love comes into it, do you really love the complete stranger that you have just saved from drowning?

That's what i meant with degrees. I would save someone from drowning, but i wouldn't jump into a lake with crocodiles for a stranger, but i would for someone in my family bc i truly love them. Idk, i just think dying for everyone is the ultimate way to show love in this reality. So if Jesus meant what he said, then i can't think of another way for him to prove it. I just find that interesting. I'm not Christian, so i don't know what the Bible says about it... i just think that part of the story is interesting.

Topic's author

#13

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,312

3

2

04.05.2021 05:55AM

3

2

04.05.2021 05:55AM

-->

@Outplayz

So if Jesus meant what he said,

And what was it that Jesus actually said about dying for our "forgiveness"?

#14

Debates: 0

Posts: 7,093

3

04.05.2021 12:42PM

3

04.05.2021 12:42PM

-->

@Outplayz

Rescue workers routinely risk their lives to save others. I don't think they do it out of love.

#15

Polytheist-Witch

Debates: 1

Posts: 4,188

3

6

Polytheist-Witch

04.05.2021 02:58PM

3

6

04.05.2021 02:58PM

-->

@Stephen

It's in the script. Read a different one and he didn't. But if you need a backstory the covering of sin with the blood of animals is in the Old Testament.

#16

Debates: 0

Posts: 2,193

3

5

04.05.2021 07:18PM

3

5

04.05.2021 07:18PM

-->

@Stephen

I'm not sure, can you please elucidate? I'm sure it's different in the Bible... haven't read it in ages. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a contradiction to how i'm thinking of it.

#17

Debates: 0

Posts: 2,193

3

5

04.05.2021 07:22PM

3

5

04.05.2021 07:22PM

-->

@secularmerlin

Rescue workers routinely risk their lives to save others. I don't think they do it out of love.

Sure, but again, that's why i said degrees. I'm sure if the rescue worker thought there is a high chance of being hurt themselves, they wouldn't do it. But on the flip side, if it's a mom's baby... the degree to which she may also die saving the baby doesn't even compute. Idk... this is tricky bc i'm defining love by the level of self-sacrifice. I don't think everyone defines love how i do, so i may have a bias. But, what other way can you "prove" you love "everyone"... that means even a person i'd normally smile if they died. If you die for "everyone" ... i think that's the only way you can prove you actually loved everyone. If we're going off my self-sacrifce type definition.

#18

Debates: 0

Posts: 7,093

3

04.05.2021 08:05PM

3

04.05.2021 08:05PM

-->

@Outplayz

I am not sure how we could accurately measure the "degree" especially since humans suffer survivors bias.

#19

Debates: 0

Posts: 2,193

3

5

04.06.2021 02:13AM

3

5

04.06.2021 02:13AM

-->

@secularmerlin

Ya, i don't know how you would measure it either. All i'm saying in regards to the OP, Jesus dying for everyone is a pretty iron clad way to prove he died for everyone. Any other way could be debated. Like, "you said you love that murder but you truly didn't" say, if he just advocated for murders rather than die for them. I find that element interesting in the story... and not only that, he got tortured and died. If he died, it would maybe be debated as a whim... but, he knew what would happen to him, went through hell, and died for everyone. I can't think of any other way one could prove they did that to save everyone... including those no human i know would die for. It's just interesting how the story played out that way to me.

Topic's author

#20

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,312

3

2

04.06.2021 05:14AM

3

2

04.06.2021 05:14AM

-->

@Polytheist-Witch

It's in the script. Read a different one and he didn't.

I don't think it is is the scrip at all. I have read nowhere in the bible where Jesus says that he was sent to pay a ransom and must die that we may be forgiven.

Topic's author

#21

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,312

3

2

04.06.2021 05:21AM

3

2

04.06.2021 05:21AM

-->

@Outplayz

So if Jesus meant what he said,

And what was it that Jesus actually said about dying for our "forgiveness"?

I'm not sure, can you please elucidate?

Well you have said " so if Jesus meant what he said". I am simply asking you what it is that you believe he said? We are talking about a blood sacrifice for forgiveness.

I'm sure it's different in the Bible...

What is different in the bible?

I wouldn't be surprised if there is a contradiction to how i'm thinking of it.

Well, Jesus in the bible says nothing concerning coming to earth to pay a blood sacrifice for our forgiveness. Does it?

Topic's author

#22

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,312

3

2

04.06.2021 05:59AM

3

2

04.06.2021 05:59AM

-->

@secularmerlin

@Outplayz

Outplayz wrote: Jesus dying for everyone is a pretty iron clad way to prove he died for everyone.

No it isn't. And if any of the scripture is to be believed then Jesus came ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel . Not England or Wales or Scotland or the natives of Papua New Guinea or the Aborigines of Australia.

#23

Debates: 0

Posts: 7,093

3

04.06.2021 12:11PM

3

04.06.2021 12:11PM

-->

@Outplayz

Jesus dying for everyone is a pretty iron clad way to prove he died for everyone.

Tautologies are necessarily true. If jesus died for everyone then he died for everyone but we don't actually know that this event took place or if it did what the actual motives are. I can construct a tautology too.

he knew what would happen to him, went through hell, and died for everyone.

And then came back and then went back to being the yahweh. At best/worst you can argue that jesus had a bad weekend that cost him nothing. I might have a bad weekend for someone in need even if I don't specifically love or even know them.

#24

Debates: 0

Posts: 7,093

3

04.06.2021 12:13PM

3

04.06.2021 12:13PM

-->

@Stephen

No it isn't. And if any of the scripture is to be believed then Jesus came ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel . Not England or Wales or Scotland or the natives of Papua New Guinea or the Aborigines of Australia.

Excellent point. At the very least there are far to many interpretations and not enough evidence to say anything definitive.

Topic's author

#25

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,312

3

2

04.07.2021 08:00AM

3

2

04.07.2021 08:00AM

I have mentioned a few times now that it was never a case that Jesus came to die for our forgiveness that we may live and dwell in "paradise/heaven". But like many claims made by Christians the bible has it own way of debunking what they claim and believe.

First of all Jesus claims that he was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel. Matthew 15:24. These would be the 12 Jewish tribes that made up Israel, gods " son". Exodus 4:22 and not some tribe from a remote island in the Pacific or South American rain forest.

No, we are talking Palestine in the time of the failed messiah Jesus, also known as - the Christ. And, it appears that Jesus was very much alive and well,and not dead or even resurrected when he started going around forgiving people at will, and the bible makes this clear. And the bible always has a knack for contradicting what later Christians come believe without reason.

The bible clearly states that Jesus said to people "your sins are forgiven". Example Mark 2:5 to the paralysed man ; "“Son, your sins are forgiven.” see also Matthew 9:4-7

This was blasphemy according to the priesthood , "He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?” Mark 2:7. Jesus 's response to this charge comes via Mark 2:10

"the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins": and we can see from this that Jesus it appears was forgiving people on a regular basis.

The priesthood had notched up another charge to level against him but non the less, Jesus carried on going around just forgiving people all over the place and even while he hung on the cross, which is interesting for another reasons when we take the time to read the words Jesus is said to have actually spoke:

“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” (Luke 23:34). Amazing isn't it. Jesus asks god to forgive his mockers and persecutors. Why? Why didn't Jesus himself forgive them as he had been forgiving others including those that hung by his side!?

Anyway, regardless. Jesus, the BIBLE states , was forgiving people even before he was arrested and crucified showing that there was absolute no reason for a blood sacrifice to forgive sins..

#26

Debates: 2

Posts: 2,140

3

7

04.07.2021 10:12PM

3

7

04.07.2021 10:12PM

-->

@Stephen

@PGA2.0

@fauxlaw

.

Stephen,

Since the term "Christian" is defined as a follower of Jesus the Christ, and since we agree with the JUDEO-Christian Bible in that Jesus was sent ONLY for His Jewish creation, and to none other, then when was the last time you asked a pseudo-christian in what sect of Judaism they belonged too? When you proffer such a statement to these ignorant fools, they look like a deer in the headlights of an oncoming semi truck!

YOUR ONCE AGAIN REVEALING OXYMORONIC QUOTE: “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” (Luke 23:34). Amazing isn't it. Jesus asks god to forgive his mockers and persecutors."

The problem with myself in having to accept that Jesus is the serial killer Yahweh God incarnate, then relating to your statement above, when Jesus said "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing" postulates that Jesus was literally talking to Himself as God! It's like Jesus saying: "Hello God, its me, you!" As if the dumbfounded of the Bible pseudo-christians like FAUXLAW, PGA2.0, ETERNLVW, et al weren't enough to contend with within this forum, then we have to try and decipher situations of Jesus being God, the Son of Himself, and the Holy Ghost being the aforementioned two, AND to try and remain intelligent looking in the aftermath.

It isn't easy to be a TRUE Christian like myself in the 21st Century of understandings. :(

.

#27

fauxlaw

Debates: 77

Posts: 3,565

4

7

10

fauxlaw

04.07.2021 10:26PM

4

7

10

04.07.2021 10:26PM

It isn't easy to be a TRUE Christian like myself in the 21st Century of understandings. :(

Too bad that 21st century "understanding" is merely dictionary-to-dictionary translation of biblical text, when dictionaries do a frankly piss-poor job of teaching culture unless one believes one can have access to something Stephen and Thomas, along with much of Christendom, have already dismissed as irrelevant: modern revelation.

#28

Theweakeredge

Debates: 33

Posts: 3,457

4

7

10

Theweakeredge

04.07.2021 10:56PM

4

7

10

04.07.2021 10:56PM

-->

@Outplayz

Well... I mean if you had omnipotent power, then no, "dying" or "sacrificing" yourself temporarily doesn't do anything except piss me off. It's superficial. Jesus spent three days there - and he is LITERALLY GOD. You know - the dude who made hell. No - it would show more love to... maybe - end world hunger? Stop cancer? Something like that - ya know?

#29

Debates: 0

Posts: 2,193

3

5

04.08.2021 02:19AM

3

5

04.08.2021 02:19AM

-->

@secularmerlin

I hear what your saying my man. Maybe i should stop saying Jesus, bc i really don't believe any of that so it may be confusing things (and the fact he came back and became god... that's actually kinda funny). I guess what i'm finding interesting is the action... probably bc it's how i express love myself. If i had to prove i love everyone, that's the only way i can think of proving it which is why it's interesting to me.

#30

Debates: 0

Posts: 2,193

3

5