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@secularmerlin
Given that we do not have freewill
Says who? You and your sock puppet?
Recreating Objectives
Posts
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@fauxlaw
Says logical necessity.
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@Theweakeredge
Because power leads to corruption, especially PHYSICAL power
Well the only "power" we are talking about is the power to manipulate energy to create form, and eventually worlds. Not the power over others. Maybe "power" is a misleading term. TBH there is no need for the power over others I'll explain below!
that's why I would want any god to have similarly just gods to rule over them - as a back up.
This is an interesting point and actually is true in some ways I can explain but at some point we have to deal with infinite regression. Somewhere at some point there is only One Origin. We usually refer to that Origin as God. Demi gods are a whole other topic, but there are superior entities that rule over parts of creation, and they are subject to God. The reason for these types of beings is they are also an outlet for God's power, creativity and expression. But this is all to create the illusion of many different types of experiences. This might sound really weird, but creation has an overriding board of justice made up of very enlightened, advanced beings that make decisions.
This might sound fantastical but there are several groups that oversee creation, because we are dealing with multiverses within creation, two groups I can think of are the Karmic Board of Justice and the Galactic Federation of Light.
But in order to reduce the chances of such corruption ever happening, then they do not have the direct ability to create or destroy.
Follow me here for a bit, corruption would indicate a need or possibly to gain some advantage point out of desperation or some bizarre desire no? like say the desire to gain power over others maybe for some political gain, perhaps some type of business move, could even be some sexual gratification (trafficking), maybe to dominate or capture some area of the world....some type of control that would necessitate the need to put others at a disadvantage and possibly put others in harms way to fulfil a sense of satisfaction?
What if God does not have those needs? because to God there's nothing to gain over others, and there's no need of wealth or politics or advantage points? what if God does not desire or need the very things that manifest corruption? The one thing different about the state of existence God exists in is that it is a state of completion in terms of self sustainment, although God may have conscious "needs", we could say or desires to express Itself because that is what is innate to consciousness as an experience but basically there are no advantage points to be gained because It is a self-sustaining Reality. One way to look at it is that the Creator is a singular Reality, there is no other God or friend, or family member, or neighbor, or equal to make a decision to gain something over....
One thing I want you to consider here is that I'm not shutting down your ideas, I'm just bouncing around thoughts so that we can possibly see eye to eye somehow. So I'm just going to present a common definition of corruption only in hopes of making my point that to become corrupt requires features that God doesn't really have or have need of.
"Corruption is a form of dishonesty or criminal offense undertaken by a person or organization entrusted with a position of authority, to acquire illicit benefit or abuse power for one's private gain."
The only angle we could derive anything of use here in relation to the Creator is a position of authority but again, there is nothing God would need from its creation, creation is nothing but an expression of Itself it serves no purpose of criminality, dishonesty, abuse or private gain for God other than simply being an outlet for creativity. If you don't agree with that I won't argue the point I just want to give you another way of thinking about God, hopefully in a more positive light. God does not have personal needs for money, sex, land, politics or really any criminal activity and even if there was a small chance it were possible it wouldn't matter, anything God does with It's creation It does to itself, it kind of defeats the purpose.
If we take away the ability of God to create we take away everything that makes up who we are and what creation is altogether...which is a creative product of God.
That's a recipe for disaster, we fear what we don't understand and you should never have to fear the one protecting you
Right, but what if you don't have to fear that? I mean we could go either way here if we're just hypothesizing right? why take one road and not the other? to me at least, it just seems like a leap in logic that really might not be necessary.
Yes yes they can be superhuman and all that, but they are not so far above humans that we can't even comprehend their power.
I don't think that is necessary, humans are tiny versions of God so there is no need to think there's something we can't comprehend. Humans are just stepped way down to a finite version of conscious awareness. Really it's our embodiments that limit what we are, outside of embodiments there is no real distinction from us and God.
These are all great points to bring up though, hopefully we can agree on something here.
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@Outplayz
Oh man, you had to say this didn't you. Well, you know my answer... i'm going to be a vampire and anyone that wants to join, be my victim, enemy, wars, death, killing, happiness, all of it... i want that all, plus being a vampire. I want to go though the struggle of drinking human blood, i want to go through the regret of those i eat, i want that long stretch of peace and love, then... vampire hunters manifest to screw me for a couple years. One thing i found fun i can add to this is being a vampire in a super-hero type reality... therefore, i'd be the most powerful super-hero since they'd be my food. But again, the above would matter... i'd want to win, and get my ass kicked. What else can you ask for really? As to god, i'd hope he find my reality fun and comes and hangs out... either as an enemy (it be fun punching god), my vampire slave, my vampire slave bitch, or just a friend... who knows, whatever god's feeling. Not my choice =)
Yep I remember, and I'm glad you chimed in because you make a great example of uninhibited creativity and what really is possible for an infinite number of creative souls of all types. Creation is much like anime, but we happen to be stuck in this part of creation which really is very limited it its ability to create. Part of the reason is because earth is either a habitation for newer, immature souls or much more rare, a place where really advanced beings come to help lower or newer souls advance. So if this place was more suited for the unrestricted creativeness of what the soul could do we would be in a lot more trouble. Look at the devastation some humans here conjure up with just limited powers....
But your vision here stirs up images that I think are very beautiful. Like for example other planets within other solar systems that have different looks to them because of the arrangement of their galaxy, stars and planets. Perhaps this type of setting would fit perfectly with a darker planet, perhaps one really close to a moon where it is visually huge as it orbits around that planet like these images below!
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That's what I want people to start thinking about, is the dynamics of creation and what is possible. Most people think about our universe as uninhabitable but it's only an assumption based around ignorance because each habitable solar system develops bodies that correspond to its environments. Just because humans cannot inhabit other parts of the universe is irrelevant for one, they were not created to do so (outside of spacecraft) and two, they evolved accordingly as products of their environment. Perhaps the beings that evolve in your world will look completely different. Perhaps also with the need to drink blood from other creatures lol.
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@fauxlaw
.
FAUXLAW, the runaway from biblical axioms, and now the #1 Bible fool upon this forum, and the #1 record holder of running away from godly posts, and who has called Jesus a LIAR many times at the expense of committing the Unpardonable Sin, and goes against Jesus in taking care of the poor,
YOUR CONTINUED BIBLE STUPIDITY IN POST #60 REGARDING THE FACT THAT YOU DO NOT HAVE FREE WILL!: "Why have free will if you're going to just sit on the fence, anyway?"
I must ask a very simple question that even your perceived knowledge can answer, okay? Why do you want to remain the #1 Bible ignorant fool, AND, the #1 runaway from substantiated biblical axioms that I have presented to you ad infinitum?: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5877-any-thoughts-on-salixes?page=3&post_number=73
Therefore, I easily schooled you upon the fact that YOU DO NOT HAVE FREE WILL, even as a pseudo-christian that you represent, do you understand? When you take this Satanic position, you are not only being an outright Bible stupid fool, but you are calling Jesus a LIAR as shown in the my following link in explicitly showing that you do not have free will, period: www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5849-the-problem-of-suffering?page=3&post_number=72
As is embarrassingly shown regarding the link above, you still runaway from it in discussion with grade school non sequiturs, and what does that truly say about your faith? CORRECT, you don't have a faith in Christianity because you keep running away from it, understood Bible fool?
FAUXLAW, you are a disgrace to Jesus and this forum.
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@fauxlaw
Why have free will if you're going to just sit on the fence, anyway? There are three kinds of people:1. Make things happen2. Watch what happens3. Wonder what happened.The first kind have free will, and choose to make things happen.The second & third sit on the fence, willingly abdicating both free will and choice, and accomplish nothing. The second kind may actually benefit from wha the first kind do, but do not contribute to making. The third kind are a lost cause altogether.You clearly support 2 & 3. Congratulations.
You got all of this from “Choice and free will are not the same thing”? Do you understand what this conversation is about?
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@EtrnlVw
to be stuck in this part of creation which really is very limited it its ability to create.
I don't believe this creation is limited. It's actually unlimited, but it's up to what this creation is that will determine where it will end up. If this creation is suppose to advance into becoming what created it, then we need to work together and figure out simulations, or something else that i'm not aware of bc simulations are current day knowledge. But this creation could also be an apocalypse, and that's its end. Hard to know for obvious reasons, but if we had infinite time... even this creation can understand what created bc the fact is... we are the creators therefore we are good enough to figure it out.
soul could do we would be in a lot more trouble.
Well, bottom line, even if we create multiple simulations, you have to experience one. Unless, somehow you can experience multple, but even then... that is an experience. So, it's not really trouble, this is just one experience. The only difference with a vampire existence is slightly different rules. But, overall, it would play out just like this experience. Governments, wars, business, work, fun, family, etc. An experience is just what it is. You can't have multple happening at once, which i guess is your point when you say trouble. If people came here for a human experience, they aren't here for a vampire experience and may never want to. You have to pick one even if we had multple simulations happening at once in a computer.
Perhaps also with the need to drink blood from other creatures lol.
Oh my dude, it would be so much more than that. It's funny how clearly i can imagine it. But truthfully, i don't know what i would do next. So far, it seems like i am a fantasy based type character. I don't think that will ever change, even with age... i prefer that over any other type of reality. Which makes it weird bc i'm in this reality and at best, i'd call this reality a drama. I hate dramas... so why am i here? I imagine bc there is infinite experiences and at least in this drama, there are things and people i love.
Anywyas, i knew exactly what you were doing with this question, that's why i joined. But let me say, i've had this belief for more than 20 years now and i've asked this question over and over again... and some people, just can't answer it, or they feel uncomfortable answer it... that's very curious to me. Last person i asked this too was my unlce, which not only is a scientist, but science of the brain... he's agnostic at best, and his only answer was he'd prefer a world where his daughters don't suffer. But i found that interesting bc literally, he is successful enough where my cousins will never truly suffer. The suffering they will have i believe is healthy and a part of every experience. Thought you may find that interesting.
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@Double_R
Of course free will and choice are not the same thing. Free will is like a menu that is even sometimes posted on a restaurant window, even while the restaurant is closed. Choice is making a selection when the kitchen is still open. The hunger is sated by the eating. The choice includes the responsibility of accepting consequence; paying for the meal. The end game is the nutrition value gained from the meal. None of those items in the sequence are the same thing, and they all function for different purposes, but there are objectives to be planned and executed all the same. What is the range of choices. In Singapore, a 9 x 12 mile island, there are sufficient international restaurants that I once spent a ten-week sojourn in Singapore, and never ate at the same restaurant twice.
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@BrotherDThomas
you are a disgrace to Jesus and this forum.
according to you and your pocket mouse. Not exactly the crowd I worry about.
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@secularmerlin
Logical necessity? What logic? So far, it has been missing in action. Another syllogism coming? I do have an umbrella.
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@fauxlaw
you are a disgrace to Jesus and this forum.
YOUR ONCE AGAIN LAME RESPONSE: "according to you and your pocket mouse. Not exactly the crowd I worry about."
Unfortunately for you I drastically and easily show you to be the #1 Bible fool of this forum, and the #1 runaway from biblical axioms as shown below in the following link:
Therefore, Jesus and I are the crowd you have to worry about, understand simple math? Huh? Jesus does not like stupid people of His creation because you keep running away from His true words as shown in the link above. Therefore you are guilty of Jesus' inspired words herein: “For my people are foolish; they know me not; they are stupid children; they have no understanding. They are ‘wise’—in doing evil! But how to do good they know not.” (Jeremiah 4:22)
I have to ask you, why do you make it so easy for me to show how Bible stupid and ignorant you are? Is it the fact that you are so Bible stupid and ignorant to begin with? LOL!
Once again, you are like a "sitting duck" for me in easily taking your child like rhetoric and easily trashing it in the name of Jesus.
NEXT?
why do you make it so easy
Does this really want a response?
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@fauxlaw
Determinism =/= freewill
Indeterminism =/= freewill
Determinism + Indeterminism =/= freewill
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@secularmerlin
David Hume does not move in my circle. Sorry.
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@fauxlaw
David Hume does not move in my circle. Sorry.
Reverse argument from authority. Arguments stand or fail independently of the identity of the person who made them.
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@zedvictor4
There is also the option of a steady-state universe.
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@janesix
For sure....Theories abound.
But steady state requires the continuous creation of matter.
So same old questions still persist.
Though the basic question is, how can anything exist at all....And therefore applies to all theories.
As I often say...All theories start at 1, never 0.
Can you explain 0 - 1?