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@triangle.128k
no it doesn't
The determinism syllogism
Posts
Total:
151
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@Bones
It kinda does. Human consciousness easily resembles the singularities of physics and mathematics. The whole world is inside your head.
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@triangle.128k
Consciousness refutes determinism
CONSCIOUSNESS IS (EITHER) CAUSED (OR) UNCAUSED
(IFF) CONSCIOUSNESS IS CAUSED (THEN) IT IS NOT "FREE"
(IFF) CONSCIOUSNESS IS UNCAUSED (THEN) IT IS NOT "WILL"
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@badger
It kinda does. Human consciousness easily resembles the singularities of physics and mathematics. The whole world is inside your head.
CONSCIOUSNESS IS (EITHER) CAUSED (OR) UNCAUSED
(IFF) CONSCIOUSNESS IS CAUSED (THEN) IT IS NOT "FREE"
(IFF) CONSCIOUSNESS IS UNCAUSED (THEN) IT IS NOT "WILL"
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@fauxlaw
What caused "you" ?That has two answers. Physically, may parents. Spiritually, God, the Father.
ARE YOUR GOD'S THOUGHTS AND ACTIONS CAUSED (OR) UNCAUSED ?
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@3RU7AL
Does an infant dream of eating lobster ?
No, but their physiology is similar to that of an adult. I consider my perception somewhat Aristotelian and I believe these things (and ideas) take time.
...ARE (EITHER) CAUSED (OR) UNCAUSED
ok. I'm not sure how to react to this. I've read all of your related posts concerning this and I've nothing to add. I might if I self-study some philosophy but I don't have time for that right now.
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@3RU7AL
CONSCIOUSNESS IS (EITHER) CAUSED (OR) UNCAUSED(IFF) CONSCIOUSNESS IS CAUSED (THEN) IT IS NOT "FREE"(IFF) CONSCIOUSNESS IS UNCAUSED (THEN) IT IS NOT "WILL"
I'll give it you. Either way, we're here.
At final judgement, should it come to that, I'll take responsibility for my choices.
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@MarkWebberFan
(IFF) CONSCIOUSNESS IS CAUSED (THEN) IT IS NOT "FREE"
(IFF) CONSCIOUSNESS IS UNCAUSED (THEN) IT IS NOT "WILL"
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@Bones
I don't understand how your conclusion relates to your premises.
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@3RU7AL
Self-caused
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@fauxlaw
Self-caused
Oh good, CAUSED and therefore DETERMINED.
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@3RU7AL
Nope. Not how you mean determinism. God's thoughts are his own; ours are ours, alone.
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@fauxlaw
Fallacy of presumption. By saying God's thought you are assuming God exists.
Special Pleading fallacy. Assuming that God has special characteristic, namely, avoids the argument 3RU7AL proposes.
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@fauxlaw
Saying self caused is literally the text book example of circular reasoning.
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@TheUnderdog
Premise 1 Every human choice or action is driven by past events.
- Name an action which isn't driven by something which happened in the past.
- ie. You eat because you're hungry, you drive because you want to get somewhere
Premise 2 We do not control past events.
- Truism
Conclusion 1 Human free will does not exist.
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@Bones
Since we currently debate this issue, and, not wanting to influence potential voters, I'll thank you to cease and desist mentions like this.
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@Bones
Fallacy of presumption. By saying God's thought you are assuming God exists.Special Pleading fallacy. Assuming that God has special characteristic, namely, avoids the argument 3RU7AL proposes.
Let's be as generous as possible here.
(IFF) a self-caused god exists (THEN) that god's thoughts and actions are (EITHER) CAUSED (OR) UNCAUSED
(IFF) SCG ACTS ACCORDING TO ITS IMMUTABLE NATURE (THEN) SCG MUST ACT ACCORDING TO ITS IMMUTABLE NATURE (LIKE A STAR, OR A PLANET)
(IFF) SCG ACTS ACCORDING TO UNCAUSED IMPULSES (THEN) SCG ACTIONS ARE FUNCTIONALLY INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM RANDOM
PERFECT GOD = PERFECT WORLD
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@fauxlaw
Nope. Not how you mean determinism. God's thoughts are his own; ours are ours, alone.
ARE GOD'S THOUGHTS CAUSED (OR) UNCAUSED ?
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@3RU7AL
Exactly. And the common excuse of "well what about free will" doesn't work because even if we are generous and assume that free will is real, "perfect" being's wouldn't choose to sin.
For example, if God created the first perfect beings (in his image after all) them the perfect beings would perfectly educated their children, creating more perfect beings. The off-spring, being taught by the perfect parents would also be perfect and also teach their children to be perfect. The fact that evil exists means that either God didn't do a good job in creating the first "perfect" being, or he just doesn't exist.
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@3RU7AL
Asked [your #125] and answered [my #131]
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@fauxlaw
Asked [your #125] and answered [my #131]
CAN YOUR GOD CHANGE ITS MIND ?
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@Bones
The fact that evil exists means that either God didn't do a good job in creating the first "perfect" being, or he just doesn't exist.
100% THIS.
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@3RU7AL
Yes. Although man is his most advanced creation, he decided to grant other animals abilities beyond ours. Such as my spirit guide, the frog. It has, within that entire species, vocal expressions that far exceed the ability of man to produce. In fact, no other creature ha the vocal range as has the frog.
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@fauxlaw
Yes. Although man is his most advanced creation, he decided to grant other animals abilities beyond ours. Such as my spirit guide, the frog. It has, within that entire species, vocal expressions that far exceed the ability of man to produce. In fact, no other creature ha the vocal range as has the frog.
That's astoundingly amazing !
My only question is, "DID SOMETHING CAUSE YOUR GOD TO WANT TO CREATE THE VOCAL RANGE OF THE FROG (OR) DID YOUR GOD CREATE THE VOCAL RANGE OF THE FROG FOR NO-REASON (NO-CAUSE)?"
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@fauxlaw
Right, and how does an all-powerful, all-knowing god "change" its mind (without learning something new)?
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@3RU7AL
I am suspicious, and in fact believe there will come a time when we will converse with all other animals, and also have ability to communicate with plants, as well as with all of one another of our own species.
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@3RU7AL
"All-knowing," or omniscient, is. I think, an attempt to describe God as being so far ahead of us that we are compelled to say he knows all things. I'm not so sure, because I think there is an endless body of knowledge, and it is possible that God, himself, is still learning. Either that, or he does, indeed know all, but has yet to experience all. That is, application of all knowledge in practical use. If, indeed, God knows all, seems to me eternity would get boring. I'm hoping he is still finding new things to know, just to keep living an in interesting, challenging concept.
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@fauxlaw
If, indeed, God knows all, seems to me eternity would get boring.
If not simply a foregone conclusion.
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@3RU7AL
If not simply a foregone conclusion.
Eternity and boring is just his distraction from the issue at hand.
God/Universe is deterministic cause and effect. Free will is first limited by;
1} human limited ability, to pull themself out of plane tailspining toward Earth, --finite set of inviolate cosmic { eternal } principles aka physical laws---,
2} #1 above,
3} #1 above,
etc eternally :--)) F-law still blocks me cause he fears truth from ebuc. Strange but true