Liberal logic

Author: TheUnderdog

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thett3
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@Double_R
Again, it has nothing to do with whether there is any current intent to hold down people of color. We’re talking about a system that was built on racism and even though those rules have since changed, the effects of those rules still remain prevalent today. That is systemic racism
Intent does matter, actually. I’ve never understood this argument. The entire system was not built on racism, that’s a ridiculous statement to make. Give me some specific facets of “the system” that are inherently racist regardless of the intentions of the people running them and we can talk about it. Is the right to a trial by jury racist? Is the right to bear arms racist? Is the corporate tax structure racist?

 We live in a society where wealth begets wealth, and where the wealth in our country was largely built during a time period where the rules for all were not the same. Plus Kids born into poor families are far more likely to be poor when raising their own kids, this cycle is basic human nature. So while I’m sure you might claim it’s all about the individual, I have a hard time believing you would see it that way if your family’s lower class standing could be traced all the way back to a period where your ancestors were regarded as property.

Hmmm 

We probably agree here more than you think. While I don’t quite believe that poverty of any specific can be traced back to the antebellum south, that’s pretty ridiculous considering the manifest examples of people and groups coming out of poverty, I do agree that at least some of it can be traced to the 1950s-1970s. But probably less than you think. Ultimately however you need to focus on how newly created wealth is captured in the future as opposed to re litigating existing wealth. That road has been traveled before and it doesn’t typically work out. I’ve brought up ideas that could help the working class in this thread, and suggest it’s a better path forward than endless race baiting 

This isn’t just about numbers, in fact that has almost nothing to do with it. If a 747 falls out of the sky killing 200 people and the cause is never found, that affects more than just the 200 people who were killed, it impacts every single person who steps on a plane afterward
All youre doing here is making an argument against media spectacles. A jet falling from the sky actually shouldn’t impact someone’s willingness to fly because the risk is still so ridiculously low to the point that the most dangerous part of your journey is the drive to the airport. You can drive any narrative simply by what you choose to report. If I were given full control of the media I could convince people of things that are objectively false like that the vaccine is dangerous by reporting constantly on the small number of people who had complications and refusing to discuss the statistics. 

You say later black people are reluctant to call the police because they’re afraid of what might happen. We just went through the statistics. To be shot while unarmed and not attacking a police officer is vanishingly rare, the risk of dying in a plane crash is actually a pretty good comparison. If black people have truly been made more reluctant to call the police this could account for some of the gigantic increase in murder rates in major cities, the victims of which are mostly other black people. Remind me again about why police brutality is what we need to focus on above all else?  

You say “listen to people’s experiences” which is kind of funny because in a different thread I told you that conservatives have been getting consistently deplatformed from social media for the last four years and you didn’t believe me. You “listen to the experiences” you want to listen to, as everyone does 
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Double_R
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@thett3
The entire system was not built on racism, that’s a ridiculous statement to make. Give me some specific facets of “the system” that are inherently racist 
Again, we live in a capitalistic society where wealth begets wealth, and where for hundreds of years the wealth in our society was gained by one race who enslaved the other and then did nothing to make up for their exploitation. How is this complicated?

I’ve brought up ideas that could help the working class in this thread, and suggest it’s a better path forward than endless race baiting
There is nothing race baiting about telling people that your life matters or pointing to the facts about where we are and how we got here. This conversation only gets contentious when people pretend it either didn’t happen or doesn’t matter.

All youre doing here is making an argument against media spectacles.
Do you think black people only experience racism via media spectacles? Do you think there are statistics to capture every time a black person is called a n*gger or told to go back to Africa? Media spectacles are your validation, not theirs.

You say “listen to people’s experiences” which is kind of funny because in a different thread I told you that conservatives have been getting consistently deplatformed from social media for the last four years and you didn’t believe me.
I never said listen to peoples experiences in the context of whether you should believe what they are claiming is true over the statistics or established facts. Throughout this thread you have been constantly dragging the conversation to where you want it to be instead of what it actually is. I jumped on this thread criticizing All Lives Matter and to criticize the criticisms of BLM, mainly the charge that it’s all about power, manipulation, and/or elevating black people over white people or whatever stupid charge is being made instead of what it actually is... a response to centuries of black peoples lives being valued less than those of white  people, if not correct then at the very least reasonable. So when I say listen to their experiences, I’m talking about understanding where they are coming from before criticizing it, because statistics do not capture that.

Your conservative example is not a comparison.  The only relevant experience they can offer is the very thing we are discussing and therefore is captured purely in statistics. But more importantly... there is no comparison between treated a particular way because of your political views and being treated a particular way because of your skin color, so no I don’t give a rats ass about their experiences. You have a right to say whatever you want and I have a right to say whatever I want in response to it. That’s how society works and that is exactly how it should work.
thett3
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Again, we live in a capitalistic society where wealth begets wealth, and where for hundreds of years the wealth in our society was gained by one race who enslaved the other and then did nothing to make up for their exploitation. How is this complicated?
You’re talking about inherited wealth here. If I recall correctly Ta Nehisi Coates made the same argument in his famous case for reparations essay. Unfortunately it doesn’t really hold up well. If you just look at a compound interest calculator, every family should be rich, even those whose ancestors had meager savings. The reality is that people of all races are extremely good at squandering money, especially when they themselves didn’t earn it. If you don’t believe me, look at studies of what happens to inheritances, at the fates of most lottery winners, or what happened to the descendants of families who were given large and productive farms stolen from the Cherokees in the 1830s. Shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations, as they say. 

We have robust data about inheritance from the Federal Reserve, and it does indeed reveal that there is a large disparity between white and black families about who receives an inheritance. 30% of white families do, and 10% of black families do. For those who receive an inheritance the median amount is the same, a little under $90,000. So 20% more white families receive an inheritance than black families do. I’m happy to concede that at least some of that wealth wasn’t allowed of black people due to policies like redlining. I don’t think you can chalk it all up to that but for the sake of argument I will grant it. So if there were no racist policies and blacks and whites were totally equal, an additional 20% of black families would get a median of ~$90k. The black-white wealth gap is $164k between families so this accounts for around 10% of the wealth gap (90k x 0.2)/164k. This suggests very strongly that the black-white wealth gap is mostly NOT due to the distant past. 


The vast majority of the wealth currently being inherited or transferred between generations was created in the post-war period so anything that happened before then is not really relevant. Take it from someone who has studied these things extensively, the amount of wealth that still exists within families from the antebellum south is vanishingly small. When I really did a lot of digging I was surprised to find that some actually does still exist (I honestly assumed that none did) but you have to go out of your way to find wealthy families who have been rich since the antebellum era. Some have even been wealthy since colonial times. But again this is incredibly rare. I would estimate maybe 10,000 people nationwide have family money this old 

The meat of my question is really what structures about America are specifically racist? It seems to me that the country wasn’t built on racism, instead it was built in conjunction with racism. The 3/5ths compromising is obviously racist and the textbook definition of dehumanizing but that doesn’t mean that the Supreme Court is also racist because it’s in the same document. Seriously I am asking you this in good faith. We are told that America is systemically racist, well which systems, and how? 

Do you think black people only experience racism via media spectacles? Do you think there are statistics to capture every time a black person is called a n*gger or told to go back to Africa? Media spectacles are your validation, not theirs.
I have no idea how often individual incidents of racism happen. I do know how often unjustified police killings of unarmed black men happen, and they are vanishingly rare. What happened to George Floyd was bad but that doesn’t mean it’s any more likely to happen to someone else as Flight 93 means we shouldn’t fly on airplanes. Far, far more black people were killed in the lawlessness unleashed by this summers unrest than are unarmed and killed by the police. I mean, isn’t it a little weird to you that when the overwhelming violent threat to black life is criminality, and the overwhelming threat to black economic security is the decline of well paying blue collar jobs and the de industrialization of the country, organizations (fully supported by big capital) that claim to be for black people overly focus on police violence and never talk about economics at all unless it’s to advocate blatantly divisive policies like reparations? I mean do you ever wonder why Apple or whoever is so gung ho on BLM 

You have a right to say whatever you want and I have a right to say whatever I want in response to it.
I mean it’s superfluous to this thread but I just thought it was funny. But why don’t you care? Don’t you want to know what the other half of the country thinks? If I said the stuff I’ve been saying in this thread on YouTube or Facebook I would be looking at a permanent ban, even though it is well sourced and reasoned (even if you disagree.) The point is that actually I don’t have the right to say what I want because monopolistic providers will shut me down, and mobs of leftists will try to make me lose my job. 
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@thett3
You’re talking about inherited wealth here.
Are you familiar with the statistics on how many people rise from their parent's wealth levels and how many fall? It's actually astonishing to note that wealth mobility is alive and well in America and it goes in both directions.

According to wikipedia, 57% increased wealth, 7% lost wealth.

Only 36% of the people remained in the same wealth bracket, which shows that it's not the norm for wealth to beget wealth and poverty to beget poverty.
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@Greyparrot
Yeah, people have it all wrong. The idea that the majority of whites families are benefiting from houses bought in the 1950s just isn’t accurate, to say nothing of slavery. I think that mobility in America has really been hurt by deinustrialization and pushing everyone into college but it’s definitely still alive....for now 

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@thett3
Have you looked at the economic freedom index lately? The USA has been losing ranks steadily. That's a much greater indicator for wealth opportunities than anything else.


Read about the factors that cause economic freedom... it is very eye-opening.
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@thett3
Also, most of public education still uses the industrial worker rubric which isn't helpful at all in today's economy.

17 days later

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Everyone and everything is racist end of discussion.  I defy anyone to prove everyone and everything isn't racist in one way or another. The word racist is completely with out definition and meaning. This is the same thing as the word racist>>>>>>> poaujfvhg;lserfngql;ajkhwj';g';   People are going to accuse  you of of being racist no matter how much shit you lick out of their assholes. Discussing race is about as pointless as discussing why you cant turn yourself into a platypus on demand. It minutes of your life wasted because in the end you will still have to get up every morning go to work and pay bills and still be accused of being a racist no matter what you do. People who want to talk about race should have to pay people $1000 dollars a second for wasting their life by talking about race.