The default position.

Author: secularmerlin ,

Topic's posts

Posts in total: 442
  • secularmerlin
    secularmerlin avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 4,967
    3
    3
    3
    secularmerlin avatar
    secularmerlin
    Imagine if you will that I have in my possession a box which I have not opened. Now imagine there is a ball in this box. This ball may be any color but I have claimed that the ball is red. Now since I have not seen the ball you may well wonder how I know this and you may well ask me "how do you know the ball is red?" 

    Let us further imagine that rather than opening the box and proving what color it is once and for all I reply "You can't prove that it isn't red".

    Now you can't actually prove that the ball is not red. Should you simply accept my word?
  • RationalMadman
    RationalMadman avatar
    Debates: 302
    Forum posts: 8,991
    10
    10
    11
    RationalMadman avatar
    RationalMadman
    --> @secularmerlin
    Depends what motive I believe you have to be honest or to lie.
  • secularmerlin
    secularmerlin avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 4,967
    3
    3
    3
    secularmerlin avatar
    secularmerlin
    In this hypothetical situation You don't have any particular reason to think either of those things. If that were a part of the hypothetical I would have mentioned it. But for the sake of argument let us say that I am not lying I believe wholeheartedly and with a conviction of faith that the ball is red. I just haven't actually looked in the box and I haven't seen the ball.
  • RationalMadman
    RationalMadman avatar
    Debates: 302
    Forum posts: 8,991
    10
    10
    11
    RationalMadman avatar
    RationalMadman
    --> @secularmerlin
    How do I know you're not lying to the degree of certainty you suggest me to in said scenario?
  • ArgentTongue
    ArgentTongue avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 124
    0
    1
    5
    ArgentTongue avatar
    ArgentTongue
    --> @RationalMadman @secularmerlin
    In the context of this hypothetical, I would not accept your word. If there is no way to prove that the ball is not red, and you have not looked inside the box, there is also no way to prove that it is, unless of course there is more to the context of the logic puzzle. Maybe you have prior interactions and - or knowledge about the contents of the box?

  • secularmerlin
    secularmerlin avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 4,967
    3
    3
    3
    secularmerlin avatar
    secularmerlin
    --> @ArgentTongue
    In this hypothetical if you have no reason to think so. I have merely asserted that the ball is red and that you cannot prove otherwise.
  • secularmerlin
    secularmerlin avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 4,967
    3
    3
    3
    secularmerlin avatar
    secularmerlin
    How do I know you're not lying to the degree of certainty you suggest me to in said scenario?
    You don't have any way of knowing but I have given no indication that I am being duplicitous. If it helps you determine your answer however let us assume for arguments sake that I am not lying and that I believe wholeheartedly that the ball is red.
  • RationalMadman
    RationalMadman avatar
    Debates: 302
    Forum posts: 8,991
    10
    10
    11
    RationalMadman avatar
    RationalMadman
    --> @secularmerlin
    Then I'd bet on the ball being red.
  • secularmerlin
    secularmerlin avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 4,967
    3
    3
    3
    secularmerlin avatar
    secularmerlin
    Would it change your answer if I have a friend who claims the ball is blue with equal belief and fervor?
  • RationalMadman
    RationalMadman avatar
    Debates: 302
    Forum posts: 8,991
    10
    10
    11
    RationalMadman avatar
    RationalMadman
    --> @secularmerlin
    Yes it would but perhaps not actually alter my bet.

  • secularmerlin
    secularmerlin avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 4,967
    3
    3
    3
    secularmerlin avatar
    secularmerlin
    I'm not sure if I understand you. You seem to be claiming that it would both change your answer and not change ypur answer. Which is it?
  • RationalMadman
    RationalMadman avatar
    Debates: 302
    Forum posts: 8,991
    10
    10
    11
    RationalMadman avatar
    RationalMadman
    --> @secularmerlin
    Both. Not neither, both.


  • secularmerlin
    secularmerlin avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 4,967
    3
    3
    3
    secularmerlin avatar
    secularmerlin
    At the point where I claim the ball is red and my friend claims it is blue and with the understanding that we both believe with a conviction of faith that we are correct even though we both cannot be whom do you believe and why?
  • RationalMadman
    RationalMadman avatar
    Debates: 302
    Forum posts: 8,991
    10
    10
    11
    RationalMadman avatar
    RationalMadman
    --> @secularmerlin
    There's infinitely more complexity to this scenario than the original one. I'd bet on red, considering purple if I can't ask more.
  • secularmerlin
    secularmerlin avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 4,967
    3
    3
    3
    secularmerlin avatar
    secularmerlin
    If the ball is purple then both my friend and I are both wrong but there is no way for you to be certain that it is purple in any case. You may ask us anything that you like but our answers always amount to "I know what color the ball is and you can't prove it isn't that color" red for my claim and blue for my friend. Before you ask we both claim the ball is one solid color and if the ball is half red and half blue (or any combination of the two) then we are both wrong. Nevertheless we both believe that we are correct. As certain as we are that the sun will rise tomorrow.
  • RationalMadman
    RationalMadman avatar
    Debates: 302
    Forum posts: 8,991
    10
    10
    11
    RationalMadman avatar
    RationalMadman
    --> @secularmerlin
    What colors make purple?
  • secularmerlin
    secularmerlin avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 4,967
    3
    3
    3
    secularmerlin avatar
    secularmerlin
    Neither of us will accept that the ball is purple arguing instead that it is the colors we claimed. We both seem equally sure and both have equal evidence to present. We cannot both be right so whom do you believe?
  • Mopac
    Mopac avatar
    Debates: 4
    Forum posts: 7,758
    3
    4
    7
    Mopac avatar
    Mopac
    I don't know what is in the box at all.

    My friend here says there is a red ball.

    My friend here says there is a blue ball.

    I say I don't know.



  • RationalMadman
    RationalMadman avatar
    Debates: 302
    Forum posts: 8,991
    10
    10
    11
    RationalMadman avatar
    RationalMadman
    --> @secularmerlin
    Well I know you so do I have permission from you to personally divulge into criticism and deep analysis of your personality traits from what I've seen from you on the site?

    If I didn't know you and if it wasn't your friend (him being your friend and not a stranger to you played into it), but knowing that both person 1 and person 2 think completely it's red and blue I would absolutely bet on purple.

    However, since I know you and know this is a friend of yours I can judge you and your general friends and the kind of friend who'd disagree with you on their view on a base-fact type thing and work from there. What I know of you thus far and of the friends you have who disagree with you on such things leads me to trust you more than them so I'd bet on red.

  • DebateArt.com
    DebateArt.com avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 1,229
    3
    3
    7
    DebateArt.com avatar
    DebateArt.com
    I hope you don't mind me correcting the topic name, it just hurt my eyes haha
  • secularmerlin
    secularmerlin avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 4,967
    3
    3
    3
    secularmerlin avatar
    secularmerlin
    What I know of you thus far and of the friends you have who disagree with you on such things leads me to trust you more than them so I'd bet on red.
    I appreciate your vote of confidence. In fact I find that I am touched in spite of myself. I am somewhat confused however as you have expressed more than once your concerns with my ability to recognize truth.

  • secularmerlin
    secularmerlin avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 4,967
    3
    3
    3
    secularmerlin avatar
    secularmerlin
    --> @DebateArt.com
    No by all means I'm not sure how to fix it myself once the topic is created.
  • secularmerlin
    secularmerlin avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 4,967
    3
    3
    3
    secularmerlin avatar
    secularmerlin
    --> @Mopac
    You are skipping ahead. At first it is only me and my box and my ball which I have never seen and which I insist is red. You can't prove its not red. Do you believe that it is red.
  • Castin
    Castin avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 1,981
    3
    2
    6
    Castin avatar
    Castin
    --> @secularmerlin
    I wouldn't accept any claim of the ball's color until you opened the box in my sight.
  • secularmerlin
    secularmerlin avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 4,967
    3
    3
    3
    secularmerlin avatar
    secularmerlin
    --> @Castin
    I will not open the box but I assure you that I have the highest order of faith in the redness of the ball.