The default position.

Author: secularmerlin

Posts

Total: 443
ArgentTongue
ArgentTongue's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 124
0
1
5
ArgentTongue's avatar
ArgentTongue
0
1
5
-->
@secularmerlin
Interesting exercise. Self invented?

secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@ArgentTongue
I'm sure it is not a new idea. There are very few of those.
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,225
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
-->
@secularmerlin
I will not open the bix but I assure you that I have the highest order of faith in the redness of the ball.
I have never known you to lie, and I respect your right to believe the ball is red, but your faith is not my proof.

But I should add that in the course of my life I have accepted many things to be true simply because a person I considered very credible said them. This means I have accepted many things without proof.
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 569
Posts: 19,930
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@secularmerlin
You are oftentimes a liar even to yourself but since in this scenario you are not I am able to operate on honesty from your part and know too little of the friend to alter the scaling (and I have other issues about your thought process IQ etc but I am not going to go into it unless you let me because of the CoC).



RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 569
Posts: 19,930
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Castin
You, like me, understand that everything is a gamble.
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
@keithprosser @castin 
As I have never known you to make a red ball statement unless you have further questions I will assume you take my point and more or less agree. You are both of course always welcome on any of my threads but barring any questions or comments I believe that we have explored this topic to its natural conclusion and I shall concentrate on those who are still on there way.
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
You are oftentimes a liar 

I have never knowingly lied to you. I have no reason to. This however is a hypothetical situation and it seems you are fixating on me and missing the point. Let us start again but this time it is a complete stranger claiming the ball is red. Do you believe this person?
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 569
Posts: 19,930
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@secularmerlin
Yes. 
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
And if a second stranger makes an equal claim that the ball is blue whom do you believe?
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@secularmerlin
I don't know what is in the box.

I have no reason to doubt that the person claiming that there is a red ball in the box believes that there is a red ball in the box.





RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 569
Posts: 19,930
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@secularmerlin
purple.
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
Purple
As before both have total faith in their position and both claim that the ball is their preferred color not purple. Do you reject both their claims?
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@Mopac
What if they define a ball as a spherical object which is red although it may appear to be another color?
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
-->
@secularmerlin
Then I would ask them if they say "ATM Machine".



RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 569
Posts: 19,930
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@secularmerlin
I accept both claims as equally close to truth.
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@Mopac
They do not. But they do define a ball as a spherical objectvwhich is red though it may appear to be another color. Perhaps the problem is that you do not understand what a ball is. If you would just accept their definition it would clear up this whole misunderstanding.
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
I accept both claims as equally close to truth.
Their claims are mutually exclusive. Both cannot be right. You may reject one or the other or reject both but you cannot agree with both of them because they do not agree with each other.
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 569
Posts: 19,930
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@secularmerlin
you are seeing a digital 'right' and 'wrong' when it is much more analogue than you see it.
Outplayz
Outplayz's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,193
3
3
5
Outplayz's avatar
Outplayz
3
3
5
-->
@RationalMadman
What colors make purple?
Lol... that was creative. 
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 569
Posts: 19,930
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Outplayz
Thanks but I was serious about my thought process and what I'd conclude.
Outplayz
Outplayz's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,193
3
3
5
Outplayz's avatar
Outplayz
3
3
5
-->
@RationalMadman
Hey i'd bet on purple too... what if half of it was red and half blue... both guys knew but you ultimately were the one right bc they melted in the box ;p 
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
you are seeing a digital 'right' and 'wrong' when it is much more analogue than you see it.

Their claims are mutually exclusive if you do not accept one then you reject both by default. 
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 569
Posts: 19,930
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Outplayz
he has essentially laid out that there's DEFINITELY 1 ball and it's 1 colour only so I didn't want to force more details of the hypothesis than I was already pushing for.
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 569
Posts: 19,930
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@secularmerlin
I do reject both but EQUALLY so do I RESPECT both.
Outplayz
Outplayz's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,193
3
3
5
Outplayz's avatar
Outplayz
3
3
5
-->
@secularmerlin
Should you simply accept my word?
I would say.. heck no i wouldn't take your word for it. If we are guessing... i'd rather choose my own color.
Outplayz
Outplayz's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,193
3
3
5
Outplayz's avatar
Outplayz
3
3
5
-->
@RationalMadman
Yeah i know. I just appreciate creativity. It's a pretty straight forward "no" i wouldn't take his word for it situation for me, and that's just boring.  
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@Outplayz
You are skipping ahead. At first it is just one person and a box which contains a ball which they have never seen but which they insist is red.
Outplayz
Outplayz's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,193
3
3
5
Outplayz's avatar
Outplayz
3
3
5
-->
@secularmerlin
i wouldn't believe that person. If it is their box and they've had it for a long time, i might take their word for it over another's merely bc it's their box and it would be a logical bet... but, if i knew he/she never looked in the box ... no i wouldn't take said person's word on it. 
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
I do reject both but EQUALLY so do I RESPECT both.

Respect is beside the point when assessing claims. You could respectfully reject a claim or disrespectful accept it but respect is not the issue. So to be clear you reject both claims.
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@Outplayz
In this hypothetical situation they have never looked in the box. They do not need to they have absolute faith in the redness of the ball.