Who&#39;s in for some fun challenges?

Debates: 34

Posts: 5,754

07.07.2021 02:01PM

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@Intelligence_06

Are these topics even “fun” at all? Many of them are overused in DDO and here.

The hijab debate mentioned I have never seen before. As well as many others. Yassine is offering many unique topics I would love to see debated

#152

Debates: 34

Posts: 5,754

07.07.2021 02:05PM

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@Yassine

The Quran is better preserved than any other book in history

Why do muslims always say this. Does preserved have a special meaning to you? I don't think anyone really denies it is perfectly preserved. When I say preserved I mean every word is written by Muhammed and that it has not been altered in any way.

Doesn't everyone already agree that the Quran is perfectly preserved?

#153

MarkWebberFan

Debates: 2

Posts: 291

MarkWebberFan

07.07.2021 02:10PM

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@Wylted

According to muslims, it's not only preserved but it's also the best book known to man. I don't know much about the former though, so perhaps you'd have to wait.

Topic's author

#154

Debates: 3

Posts: 1,085

07.08.2021 12:08AM

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@Wylted

The hijab debate mentioned I have never seen before. As well as many others. Yassine is offering many unique topics I would love to see debated

- Which topics? You can start by trying yourself you know...

Why do muslims always say this. Does preserved have a special meaning to you?

- Good question. As a matter of fact, the legitimacy of the Quran itself rests on its preservation, Allah says: "It is certainly We Who have revealed the Reminder [Quran], and it is certainly We Who will preserve it." (15:9). In the Hadith, Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) said the Quran will only cease with the disappearance of Islam & Muslims. If it turns out that the Quran is not preserved as vowed, it would cast a serious doubt on its truth. At the very least, this would transform the significance of the text from contextual understanding to metaphorical one -just like what happened with the Bible. Thus, undermining 1400 years of Islamic tradition. Conversely, the preservation of the text constitute a solid ground for the Muslim's faith, that God promised to preserve the Quran, & so it is.

I don't think anyone really denies it is perfectly preserved. When I say preserved I mean every word is written by Muhammed and that it has not been altered in any way.

- I would actually say proving the opposite is impossible. In fact, I would state that as long as there are Muslims the Quran will be perfectly preserved. Maybe I'll create a debate topic for that.

Doesn't everyone already agree that the Quran is perfectly preserved?

- Less than you think, especially among Christians & revisionists.

#155

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,323

07.12.2021 05:46AM

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@Wylted

When I say preserved I mean every word is written by Muhammed and that it has not been altered in any way.

So you have never read about the satanic verses then, concerning how it was that Muhammad changed his mind about them and blamed them on Satan saying, they were - " nufink to do wiv me guv"?

#156

Debates: 34

Posts: 5,754

07.12.2021 06:11PM

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@Stephen

No, that is new to me

Topic's author

#157

Debates: 3

Posts: 1,085

07.13.2021 01:00AM

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@Stephen

@Wylted

So you have never read about the satanic verses then, concerning how it was that Muhammad changed his mind about them and blamed them on Satan saying, they were - " nufink to do wiv me guv"?

- You seem to be keen on this fictitious story. My offer still stands, to debate the resolution: {'Prophet Muhammed Spoke The Satanic Verses' Is Fact (Pro) or Fiction (Con)}. I'll take Con of course.

No, that is new to me

- You're welcome to take the offer too.

#158

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,323

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job%201&version=NIV

07.13.2021 06:17AM

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@Wylted

No, that is new to me

The Satanic Verses refers to those verses which the Prophet Muhammad is said to have mistaken for divine revelation (they were nice fluffy verse apparently saying be kind to everyone and everything in the world). But when Muhammad was told where to stick his new ideology by all those who weren't fooled by him all those nice fluffy verses went clean out of the window and gave birth to the - so called `the religion of peace `. The verses can be read in early Biographies of Muhammad by _

al-Waqidi who was a historian.

Ibn Ishaq, who was an Arab Muslim historian and biographer. Ibn Ishaq collected oral traditions that formed the basis of an important biography of the prophet Muhammad.

Ibn Sa`d a scholar and Arabian biographer.

So make up your own mind, Wylted, if you have mind to.

Of course, Muslims today reject these educated and learned scholars, historians and biographers by saying that Muhammad – an illiterate desert dweller – wasn’t stupid enough to be fooled by Satan...or words to that effect.

Its of similar vein in that Christians forever telling us that god loves us and all creation while the Old Testament itself proves the opposite. The OT god will kill at the drop of and hat and it shows - in the story of Job in particular, just how cheap human life really is to him. Read this 3 minute sad story of Job, a loyal servant that walked in all the ways of god, for yourself and make up your own mind.

Each to their own, eh.

Topic's author

#159

Debates: 3

Posts: 1,085

07.15.2021 12:27AM

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@Stephen

@Wylted

The Satanic Verses refers to those verses which the Prophet Muhammad is said to have mistaken for divine revelation (they were nice fluffy verse apparently saying be kind to everyone and everything in the world).

- One of these day I'm gunna read one of your posts and find no lies. That day hasn't come yet though. Why you lie so much though? Goddamn! The Satanic Verses are about idol worship, which read: "These [the idols] are the exalted cranes. Whose intercession is to be hoped for".

But when Muhammad was told where to stick his new ideology by all those who weren't fooled by him all those nice fluffy verses went clean out of the window and gave birth to the - so called `the religion of peace `. The verses can be read in early Biographies of Muhammad by _

- So idol worship = peace ...?! Are you a pagan?

al-Waqidi who was a historian.
Ibn Ishaq, who was an Arab Muslim historian and biographer. Ibn Ishaq collected oral traditions that formed the basis of an important biography of the prophet Muhammad.
Ibn Sa`d a scholar and Arabian biographer.

- More lying.

So make up your own mind, Wylted, if you have mind to.
Of course, Muslims today reject these educated and learned scholars, historians and biographers by saying that Muhammad – an illiterate desert dweller – wasn’t stupid enough to be fooled by Satan...or words to that effect.

- All that talk & you refuse to debate me on this. Find another hobby.

Its of similar vein in that Christians forever telling us that god loves us and all creation while the Old Testament itself proves the opposite. The OT god will kill at the drop of and hat and it shows - in the story of Job in particular, just how cheap human life really is to him. Read this 3 minute sad story of Job, a loyal servant that walked in all the ways of god, for yourself and make up your own mind.

- Prophets in the Bible are portrayed as scum. In the Quran, they are portrayed as saintly perfect persons.

#160

Debates: 34

Posts: 5,754

07.15.2021 11:41AM

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@Yassine

Why are you replying to me. I never said any of those things. Please leave me out of your discussion

#161

Deb-8-a-bull

Debates: 0

Posts: 2,977

Deb-8-a-bull

07.15.2021 12:05PM

After reading this.

There seems to be TWO religions.

I'm confused now.

PASS....

Topic's author

#162

Debates: 3

Posts: 1,085

07.15.2021 12:25PM

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@Wylted

Why are you replying to me. I never said any of those things. Please leave me out of your discussion

- That's fair.

Topic's author

#163

Debates: 3

Posts: 1,085

07.18.2021 08:53PM

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@MarkWebberFan

False. Even the Muhammadiyah's consensus is consistent with Islam on this. For fear of having muslims led astray, you'd rather avoid the mass-circulation of literature that you deem unislamic.

- No state allows what undermines it. So? Western countries censor everything they don't want too. Malaysia doesn't have to censor what France does, the same way France doesn't have to censor what Malaysia does.

Sure, if it's physical science, it's harmless. Everything else however is banned because according to Islam, truth is on their side.

- Same thing in the West. You keep committing this circular fallacy. They think the truth is on their side, they ban what they disagree with.

Again, this nauseating pre-arranged idea of truth in the inquiry of knowledge is the most annoying part of islam. Practically, it leaves absolutely no breathing room for alternatives.

- You want to square the circle! If Islam is true, then Islam is true. It can't be true & false at the same time. It's either true or false. If it's true, then else is false. If it's false, then the truth lays somewhere else.

You're making grandiose claims about human nature again. Islam's societal practices have no common ground with western societal practices. You're looking at the west with your islamic-tinted glasses. The fact that you're assuming that human nature has this certain innate bias clearly shows a lot about Islamic society in general. It clearly disallows a different viewpoint of human nature.

- You're not really saying anything. This is a rant about nothing. What exactly do you disagree with? That humans protest injustice? That the weak follow the powerful? That decadence is the last stop to any civilization?

This is where I disagree and decided to choose a different lifestyle. For the next part of your large posts, you've said a lot about submission. I am well aware that personal whims do not override religious obligation. Well, i know that islam has been consistent on this end. As I said earlier, the fundamental issue is that i don't agree with its lifestyle. Thus, I chose the west.

- What does any of this have to do with Islam?!

I guess it's fair that taxation is theft. Again, you're inferring corruption for granted. What is it with muslims and their grandiose claims? You've claimed that western philosophy came from Islam. Yet, here, you're making mistakes as though you read none of the Vienna circles' analytic philosophers.

- Allow me to offer you a further glimpse into this story. Consider the following pieces of facts:

F1. Gustav Le Bon, a 19th century French intellectual, wrote about a story of a general sent by Napoleon to recover a Maliki book of Law titled Sharh Dardeer (which is an actual book, widely read and large Maliki reference in some 2.4 million words).

F2. Pre-1800 France had no prior legal tradition, only a couple of essays on customary laws.

F3. In 1782 Napoleon commissioned a committee to draft a French law for his nation (in the fashion of Ottoman canons). 8 years later, the committee is a failure, it gets disbanded. That same year, 1800-1801, Napoleon invades Egypt & Palestine, long story short, a million people are dead, the invasion is unsuccessful, Napoleon goes back. This time, however, he commissioned a new committee, 9 months later, a new law is drafted, called Napoleonic Law.

F4. A century later, an Azhari scholar does a comparison between 1400 articles of Napoleonic Law & Shard Dardeer. He finds there 9/10 reconcilable similarity.

- Tell me what do you say about this?

These inferences mean nothing if only to show a generalized rejection of those you deem different than you.

- You're talking about Europeans & their denial.

I'm not intending to move to the west to be a pioneer of something, I just want out of a Muslim country and read literature freely until I grow old. Malays have a simple philosophy of life. Be simple, live simple lives. Jesus, I'm not an over-zealous american hell-bent on achieving her dreams.

- What don't you read Muslim literature? Are Muslim intellectuals not available in your language?

So, me encountering Rawls' essays in a decrepit indonesian bookstore is an elaborate scheme by western countries? That's interesting. Maybe, when I have free time, I'll look up that charlatan Chomsky.

- Let me know when you find ar-Razi in a European bookstore.

I think the last part of your posts about inheritance laws seem like a rejection of my anecdotes. I think you've only offered your own rebuttal in the form of counter-anecdotes. ill read it a second time next time in case I miss anything. Once I do, expect a reply to that.

- I argued from principle, not from example. By LAW, Islamic inheritance is not allowed in the West. Going to a judge with "I want my Islamic share" is a nothing.

203 days later

#164

Debates: 6

Posts: 434

02.06.2022 11:01PM

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@Yassine

I would be interested in this one

The Chinese communist state is superior to the Western democratic state

A lot of these topics are not sensible at all though. For example, one of many examples

Atheism is unattainable

It's literally a belief system. You attain it, just by being atheist.

Also the Koran being the best preserved book. I could write a book tomorrow and it would by definition be better preserved than any book made prior to it, in history.

Topic's author

#165

Debates: 3

Posts: 1,085

02.06.2022 11:23PM

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@Incel-chud

I would be interested in this one

The Chinese communist state is superior to the Western democratic state

- You didn't have to pick that one. You don't wanna argue anything Islam vs West? Or Muhammed is a prophet?

A lot of these topics are not sensible at all though.

- Which?

For example, one of many examples
Atheism is unattainable
It's literally a belief system. You attain it, just by being atheist.

- Exactly. It's a belief system, which is unattainable. Saying, "I'm atheist" is not ground for actual attainment of Atheism, as the belief system. Denial of God has colossal implications on worldview, a paradigm shift which has never been truly achieved. It fundamentally impacts morality, spirituality & rationality, therefore a whole new model of lifestyle, society & government. In truth, there has never been a pure model of Atheism, without theistic foundations & assumptions. Those who claim to be atheist do not & can not abide by what that assumption entails.

Also the Koran being the best preserved book. I could write a book tomorrow and it would by definition be better preserved than any book made prior to it, in history.

- Key word here being "in history", a book written today or tomorrow does not belong to History, only a book whose author is dead. That said, the Quran would still be better preserved than your future novel.

#166

Debates: 6

Posts: 434

02.07.2022 12:48AM

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@Yassine

Key word here being "in history", a book written today or tomorrow does not belong to History, only a book whose author is dead. That said, the Quran would still be better preserved than your future novel.

Preserved means word for word the same. Even the iIlyad which predates the Koran is preserved LOL.

Topic's author

#167

Debates: 3

Posts: 1,085

02.07.2022 01:00AM

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@Incel-chud

Preserved means word for word the same.

- You don't say. We can debate the Quran is better preserved -word for word- than [your choice of book].

Even the iIlyad which predates the Koran is preserved LOL.

- Is it...

#168

Debates: 6

Posts: 434

02.07.2022 01:36AM

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@Yassine

No, because I already know what you will do. We will spend the entire debate, arguing over the definition of the word preserve, and I will win because I will use the Oxford dictionary to prove your definition was stupid the whole time.

This will end up a semantics argument. I'll win, but the process will be annoying.

Topic's author

#169

Debates: 3

Posts: 1,085

02.07.2022 01:58AM

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@Incel-chud

No, because I already know what you will do. We will spend the entire debate, arguing over the definition of the word preserve, and I will win because I will use the Oxford dictionary to prove your definition was stupid the whole time.

- What is the OD definition then?

This will end up a semantics argument. I'll win, but the process will be annoying.

- That would certainly be annoying, especially when you lose. How about: the Quran is better preserved verbatim than [your book].

#170

Debates: 6

Posts: 434

02.07.2022 02:01AM

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@Yassine

That would certainly be annoying, especially when you lose. How about: the Quran is better preserved verbatim than [your book

Why don't you explain this. How is it better preserved than Atlas Shrugged?

Topic's author

#171

Debates: 3

Posts: 1,085

02.07.2022 02:06AM

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@Incel-chud

Why don't you explain this. How is it better preserved than Atlas Shrugged?

- Are we having that debate right here & now? Is Atlas Shrugged your book of choice? Why don't you explain to me how Atlas Shrugged is perfectly preserved.

#172