The end of the nation-state

Author: rbelivb

Posts

Total: 43
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,689
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@rbelivb
You skipped a lot of my direct questions but I think I have some sense of your subject now- a kind of utopian global anarchy.  Are you promoting a specific ism or just keeping it super vague?

-->@oromagi
Competence precedes the nation-state necessarily.  Merit precedes the nation-state necessarily.  There were  noble kings and competent generals long before the Treaty of Westphalia.
Nobles or generals may have been seen as superior, or even had certain training as part of their position, but this is different from the modern concept of competence.
in what way?

The Declaration of Independence asserts that nations may be formed artificially- that all government really just exists  by the consent of the governed and that dissatisfied people may dissolve all prior allegiance to kings and countries and choose instead to pledge our lives, honor, and fortunes to one another.
Regardless of what is asserted in liberal documents, any arbitrary mass of people today cannot simply dissolve and form new countries or nations at will, by force of assertion.  On what territory would they do so, and by whose authority?
And yet America unquestionably did just that.  

These documents and the American people's expansive allegiance to all comers so inclined
Are you implying that the US has open borders?
not at all.

If we define NATION as "a cultural-political community that has become conscious of its autonomy, unity and particular interests,"  then its seems that nationalism has no particular dependency on borders or militaries.  

As a species, humans already possess the necessary autonomy and shared particular interests (survival as a species, most prominently).  Unity seems to be the trick and I agree that borders and militaries are obstacles to that unity but I don't buy that societies survive long or well without some government.   I think unity is possible if and when the shared interests of mankind are manifest to all humanity.  I won't surprise anybody by preferring a liberal democracy as the best form of government for any society, including any global government for a Nation of Man.

fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@rbelivb
You mistake privilege for right. Citizenship is not a right since it comers with conditions; there are no conditions with true rights. Health care is not a right, either since it cannot by applied under all conditions. If health care were a right, everyone waiting for an organ transplant would have that organ available to them to have the needed transplant performed, but they don't. Health care is a privilege. And even rights have their limit, such as one claiming a right that intercedes in another's right. My right to throw my fist ends at your nose, and so on.
bmdrocks21
bmdrocks21's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 2,798
4
6
11
bmdrocks21's avatar
bmdrocks21
4
6
11
-->
@rbelivb
I thought you were going in a good direction to start your post, but then took a very different direction than expected.

The issue is this liberal egalitarian fever dream that has infected most Western societies. If the idea is that everybody and every group are exactly the same or will succeed and do things at the same rates in the same societies, then every disparity must be blamed on somebody. If more women are nurses, it must be because some societal force is forcing them to do that. If more blacks live in poverty than Hispanics and Asians, it must be because of oppression, not any group difference in language, culture, etc.

When you have a multicultural (many different distinguishable groups) and your society is mired in this assumption that everyone is the same and has the same capabilities, then your society will die. It will try to solve unsolvable problems with lots of time and money, with less of our budget getting put towards solvable, "real" problems.

You simply cannot hope to live in a society in which race, gender, and class break down. People identify with their own groups, gender and sex are at the very least strongly correlated and sex is biological, and people are always envious of those that have more than them. (And we've seen how societies that try to make everyone have the same "class" have worked out).

I hardly think that egalitarian values are inherent to all nation-states, so what is happening cannot really be deemed natural.
ebuc
ebuc's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,239
3
2
4
ebuc's avatar
ebuc
3
2
4
-->
@Greyparrot
@rbelivb
If I was a Nigerian-American, I would scam America to the bone. Every man for himself.

Or as the founder of Mcdonals, or at least the man who stole it from the McDanald brother is alledged to  have stated ---at the end of the movie The Founder---. 'it is not a dog eat dog out there, it is a rat eat rat world'

Bucky Fuller states that if the 200 or so various nations do not unify by the year 2000, it is curtains for humanity.

That unification can be intentional mind forward less detrimental { graceful } approach, or more detrimental{ gross } butt forward approach.

Is going to be all-for-one and one-for-all, or _________?

fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@FLRW
The struggle for racial equality ended, systematically, with the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which abolished all Jim Crow laws extant in the U.S., whether federal or state or local. It took a while for all jurisdictions to catch up [even the Court], but, effectively, systematically, they were no longer legal, and no jurisdiction could legally enforce them. Those that did were violating the law on individual bases, and still do. One of the problems is recognizing the difference between legislated statutes and procedural policies, the 'system', and how people, even in government, act individually, or even as groups of individuals. 
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@Sum1hugme
The U.S. Chooses to be outside the jurisdiction of the Hague.
rbelivb
rbelivb's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 205
1
2
5
rbelivb's avatar
rbelivb
1
2
5
-->
@oromagi
You skipped a lot of my direct questions but I think I have some sense of your subject now- a kind of utopian global anarchy.  Are you promoting a specific ism or just keeping it super vague?
Libertarianism

in what way?
I have in mind concepts like "meritocracy" or "general intelligence" -- these concepts do not translate well to states prior to the 17th century, because status was tied to some idea of one's given role, perhaps like "virtue" but not a purely mechanical concept of competence. Really it wasn't until the 19th century that such structures of generalised knowledge and models of intelligence were starting to be properly formulated. Today, they are used as ideological props to the legitimacy of the class structure characteristic of the nation-state. They do not really have meaning or use outside of that context.

Gould argues that the primary assumption underlying biological determinism is that, "worth can be assigned to individuals and groups by measuring intelligence as a single quantity". Biological determinism is analyzed in discussions of craniometry and psychological testing, the two principal methods used to measure intelligence as a single quantity. According to Gould, these methods possess two deep fallacies. The first fallacy is reification, which is "our tendency to convert abstract concepts into entities".[3] Examples of reification include the intelligence quotient (IQ) and the general intelligence factor (g factor), which have been the cornerstones of much research into human intelligence. The second fallacy is that of "ranking", which is the "propensity for ordering complex variation as a gradual ascending scale".

Unity seems to be the trick and I agree that borders and militaries are obstacles to that unity but I don't buy that societies survive long or well without some government. 
It seems that your main contention is that I do not directly identify these tendencies toward unification with classical liberal texts. In fact, the classical liberal position was much more ambivalent - it is characterised essentially by a kind of hypocrisy, in the sense of a tension between its implicit and its explicit tenets. My main contention is that nationality and ethnicity are closely intertwined concepts, and that is what I mean by the fact that the idea of a nation-state built on a foundation of universality and blindness to race, is contradictory and abstract.
rbelivb
rbelivb's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 205
1
2
5
rbelivb's avatar
rbelivb
1
2
5
-->
@bmdrocks21
The issue is this liberal egalitarian fever dream that has infected most Western societies. If the idea is that everybody and every group are exactly the same or will succeed and do things at the same rates in the same societies, then every disparity must be blamed on somebody. If more women are nurses, it must be because some societal force is forcing them to do that. If more blacks live in poverty than Hispanics and Asians, it must be because of oppression, not any group difference in language, culture, etc.
Language and culture are shaped by "societal forces," and the fact that "more blacks live in poverty" shapes their culture as well. Unless you are going to rely fully on biological determinism I don't know how you can get around the fact that "societal forces" contribute to social outcomes. Also I am not a liberal egalitarian, but I don't think liberals or egalitarians claim that "everybody and every group are exactly the same."
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,689
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@rbelivb
@oromagi
You skipped a lot of my direct questions but I think I have some sense of your subject now- a kind of utopian global anarchy.  Are you promoting a specific ism or just keeping it super vague?
Libertarianism
Thank you.  That does help to clarify although I find libertarianism is a highly fungible term.
in what way?
I have in mind concepts like "meritocracy" or "general intelligence"....
I think I have it now- the way IQ is more about upholding establishment bias regarding admirable thought than any honest assessment of wit, imagination, memory, or intellect.  I agree such biases uphold the current paradigm whether or not that paradigm can be called nation state.
Unity seems to be the trick and I agree that borders and militaries are obstacles to that unity but I don't buy that societies survive long or well without some government. 
It seems that your main contention
I have no real thesis here- more like I am trying to parse yours.

is that I do not directly identify these tendencies toward unification with classical liberal texts. In fact, the classical liberal position was much more ambivalent - it is characterised essentially by a kind of hypocrisy, in the sense of a tension between its implicit and its explicit tenets.
Well, ideals can be ambivalent  but it is not  hypocrisy that makes an ideal so.   All ists fail to live up to their isms.  Let's recall that:

"In the United States, libertarian was popularized by the individualist anarchist Benjamin Tucker around the late 1870s and early 1880s.  Libertarianism as a synonym for liberalism was popularized in May 1955 by writer Dean Russell, a colleague of Leonard Read and a classical liberal himself. Russell justified the choice of the term as follows:
Many of us call ourselves "liberals." And it is true that the word "liberal" once described persons who respected the individual and feared the use of mass compulsions. But the leftists have now corrupted that once-proud term to identify themselves and their program of more government ownership of property and more controls over persons. As a result, those of us who believe in freedom must explain that when we call ourselves liberals, we mean liberals in the uncorrupted classical sense. At best, this is awkward and subject to misunderstanding. Here is a suggestion: Let those of us who love liberty trade-mark and reserve for our own use the good and honorable word "libertarian."
Subsequently, a growing number of Americans with classical liberal beliefs began to describe themselves as libertarians. One person responsible for popularizing the term libertarian in this sense was Murray Rothbard, who started publishing libertarian works in the 1960s.  Rothbard described this modern use of the words overtly as a "capture" from his enemies, writing that "for the first time in my memory, we, 'our side,' had captured a crucial word from the enemy. 'Libertarians' had long been simply a polite word for left-wing anarchists, that is for anti-private property anarchists, either of the communist or syndicalist variety. But now we had taken it over".

In the 1970s, Robert Nozick was responsible for popularizing this usage of the term in academic and philosophical circles outside the United States, especially with the publication of Anarchy, State, and Utopia (1974), a response to social liberal John Rawls's A Theory of Justice (1971).  In the book, Nozick proposed a minimal state on the grounds that it was an inevitable phenomenon which could arise without violating individual rights."
Given its frequent re-alignments, I think I could successfully argue that Libertarianism is far more ambivalent a concept than Liberalism.  That Nozick guy sounds pretty close to what you are talking abut.

My main contention is that nationality and ethnicity are closely intertwined concepts, and that is what I mean by the fact that the idea of a nation-state built on a foundation of universality and blindness to race, is contradictory and abstract.
All ists fail to live up to their isms.  

Hence, Lincoln's inaugural address: " A majority held in restraint by constitutional checks and limitations, and always changing easily with deliberate changes of popular opinions and sentiments, is the only true sovereign of a free people.  We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave to every living heart and hearthstone all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature."

Hence, King: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

No wise man supposes that just believing in the ism makes it true.  Take Libertarianism, for example.  The most famous American Libertarian ever is Ron Paul but he's a long, long way from breaking up those paradigms of race and gender of which you speak:

"Many articles in [Ron Paul's} newsletters contained statements that were criticized as racist or homophobic. These statements include, "Given the inefficiencies of what DC laughingly calls the criminal justice system, I think we can safely assume that 95 percent of the black males in that city are semi-criminal or entirely criminal."  An October 1992 article said, "even in my little town of Lake Jackson, Texas, I've urged everyone in my family to know how to use a gun in self defense... for the animals are coming."  Another newsletter suggested that black activists who wanted to rename New York City in honor of Martin Luther King Jr. should instead rename it "Welfaria," "Zooville," "Rapetown," "Dirtburg," or "Lazyopolis."  An article titled "The Pink House" said "I miss the closet. Homosexuals, not to speak of the rest of society, were far better off when social pressure forced them to hide their activities."  Another newsletter asserted that HIV-positive homosexuals "enjoy the pity and attention that comes with being sick" and approved of the slogan "Sodomy=Death."

A number of the newsletters criticized civil rights movement activist Martin Luther King Jr., calling him a pedophile and "lying socialist satyr".  These articles told readers that Paul had voted against the Martin Luther King Jr. Day federal public holiday, saying "Boy, it sure burns me to have a national holiday for that pro-communist philanderer, Martin Luther King. I voted against this outrage time and time again as a Congressman. What an infamy that Ronald Reagan approved it! We can thank him for our annual Hate Whitey Day."
But you wouldn't say Ron Paul's racism makes your notion of Libertarianism less valid, would you?  Is Christianity ambivalent because Christians fail to live up to the Sermon on the Mount?  No.

Judge the ism by the wisdom of its content, not by the failures of its adherents.
rbelivb
rbelivb's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 205
1
2
5
rbelivb's avatar
rbelivb
1
2
5
-->
@badger
So what do you envision besides state or capitalism? 
It is very possible that everyone is a conservative, and the various ideologies are like projections, or shadows on a cave wall, reflecting the various sides of the state-form they arose within. However, we can see concretely that the very concept of territory is coming under question today, and in a much more radical way that cannot so easily be papered over by the abstractions of classical liberalism. As I mentioned in the OP, we can gauge this by the way that attempts to overcome or elude this problem require extreme measures. For example, Zionism, the Nordic model, paleoconservatism. These are all attempts to construct "healthy communities," tightening the social fabric by one again re-aligning legal jurisdiction with the political territory of that community.
rbelivb
rbelivb's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 205
1
2
5
rbelivb's avatar
rbelivb
1
2
5
-->
@oromagi
Given its frequent re-alignments, I think I could successfully argue that Libertarianism is far more ambivalent a concept than Liberalism.
By talking about the ambiguity of liberalism, I am referring to a kind of 'inside-outside' distinction which is integral to the structure of liberalism and to the states founded upon it. Domenico Losurdo refers to this as the "community of the free" - by which the "universal rights" championed by liberalism are always implicitly delimited. The universal rights of liberalism are universal to the community of the free - and insofar as they are consolidated the opposition between inside and outside is deepened - and it is this opposition which organises all liberal discourse.

Slavery is not something that persisted despite the success of the three liberal revolutions. On the contrary, it experienced its maximum development during that success [...] Contributing decisively to the rise of an institution synonymous with the absolute power of man over man was the liberal world. [...] To a greater or lesser extent, there survived in the Spanish and Portuguese colonies 'ancillary slavery', which is to be distinguished from 'systemic slavery, linked to plantations and commodity production'. And it was the latter type of slavery, established above all in the eighteenth century (starting from the liberal revolution of 1688 89) and clearly predominant in the British colonies, which most consummately expressed the de humanization of those who were now mere instruments of labour and chattels, subject to regular sale on the market.
This did not even involve a return to the slavery peculiar to classical antiquity. Certainly, chattel slavery had been widespread in Rome. Yet the slave could reasonably hope that, if not he himself, then his children or grandchildren would be able to achieve freedom and even an eminent social position. Now, by contrast, his fate increasingly took the form of a cage from which it was impossible to escape.
- Losurdo, Liberalism, a Counter-History p. 36

Liberalism and the nation-sate model are co-extensive with the identitarian models of hierarchical organisation which they claim to oppose. Racialised slavery was established on the basis of liberal principles, of limitation of the absolute power of governments, as well as the spirit of even-handedness and pragmatism.
bmdrocks21
bmdrocks21's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 2,798
4
6
11
bmdrocks21's avatar
bmdrocks21
4
6
11
-->
@rbelivb
Language and culture are shaped by "societal forces," and the fact that "more blacks live in poverty" shapes their culture as well. Unless you are going to rely fully on biological determinism I don't know how you can get around the fact that "societal forces" contribute to social outcomes. Also I am not a liberal egalitarian, but I don't think liberals or egalitarians claim that "everybody and every group are exactly the same."

Language and culture are to some degree affected by "societal forces".

But blacks living in poverty doesn't determine their culture. You are being the polar opposite of a biological determinist. You think that societal factors are everything.

However, that is quite clearly false. While poor blacks and whites have a few similarities in culture, their overall cultures are quite distinct. Biology and group identity are big factors affecting culture.

And I don't care if egalitarians or liberals actually claim that "everybody and every group are exactly the same". They don't need to say that. It is apparent from what they say that this is what they believe. When any negative racial disparity for a non-white group is blamed on "white supremacy" or "structural racism" or whatever other jibberish term they choose to use, they are proving that they believe that all groups will achieve the same outcomes if there isn't some evil system preventing that from happening. If you blame "racism" (or whatever other mystical force you choose) without any reference to the impacts of group differences in culture or biology, then you by default believe that "all groups are exactly the same" since you don't consider any group difference as an explanatory factor.
rbelivb
rbelivb's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 205
1
2
5
rbelivb's avatar
rbelivb
1
2
5
-->
@bmdrocks21
However, that is quite clearly false. While poor blacks and whites have a few similarities in culture, their overall cultures are quite distinct. Biology and group identity are big factors affecting culture.
We could hypothesise that, in a pure experiment in which the conditions were identical, different groups would display different behaviours under the same conditions, because of differences in, say brain shape. However, this is a mere hypothesis, no reproducible empirical experiment has yet demonstrated to what degree variance in actual outcomes can be attributed to this. To bring in biology is to hypothesise an extraneous, unproven and theoretical causal factor to explain something for which a plethora of known contributing factors already exist. The null hypothesis states that group differences should be assumed to be due to chance unless significant positive evidence exists to show that some variable plays a causal role.

When any negative racial disparity for a non-white group is blamed on "white supremacy" or "structural racism" or whatever other jibberish term they choose to use, they are proving that they believe that all groups will achieve the same outcomes if there isn't some evil system preventing that from happening.
My argument is that the particular differences in outcomes currently seen between social groups is primarily determined neither by racism, nor biology. This is the false dichotomy: if a difference in group outcomes isn't determined by biology, then it must be explained by the personal prejudice of a mass of people, and vice versa. Instead of being caused by personal prejudice of individuals, or directly determined by biology, differences in group outcomes emerge from the structure of the state in which they are formed. This is I believe what people who use terms like "structural racism" are getting at, however I think it is misleading to use the word "racism" because it denotes personal prejudice. I am talking about the ethnic content of the structures upon which states are formed.

since you don't consider any group difference as an explanatory factor.
I just don't see what is useful about bringing in biology when discussing sociology or politics. Ultimately, we are all biological creatures. However, we are also physical beings, but it would not be useful to try to build an understanding of political outcomes using physics. The science is not developed enough to connect the two domains in any rigorous way, so the attempt is more likely to obfuscate the issues, rather than clarifying them.