If god is perfect why did he often fail?

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See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheists_in_science_and_technology

07.17.2021 12:42PM

With Adam and Eve the failure is that they disobeyed god. But god created these pair. I didn’t. Yet I am told I will suffer in hell for three reasons.

(1) I apparently have inherited their sin.

(2) I don’t believe Jesus was god;

(3)It is doubtful that even Jesus believed himself to be a god either? So then his master plan for the creation of man was a complete failure.

Then mankind become so corrupt by his actions and multiple sinful ways that he sent a flood to wipe them from the face of the earth. Another fail.

He confuse human language after the destruction of Nimrod and the Tower of Babel incident so that they could not effectively communicate with each other. Another failure.

Matthew 13: 40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mathew 13 comes well after these previous disasters sent onto the shoulders of mankind by god, and it appears that god still hadn't corrected a single one of his own previous errors, either!?

Why so many failures if god is said, and seen to be by millions, to be perfect? How many goes does he have to have before getting it right, before we are sent to the flames to face much gnashing of teeth in perpetuity?

FLRW

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FLRW

07.17.2021 02:51PM

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@Stephen

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07.17.2021 03:17PM

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@Stephen

With Adam and Eve the failure is that they disobeyed god. But god created these pair. I didn’t. Yet I am told I will suffer in hell for three reasons.

(1) I apparently have inherited their sin.

You are not told that you will suffer in hell because you inherited their sin.

I don’t believe Jesus was god;

Okay.

It is doubtful that even Jesus believed himself to be a god either?

"Doubtful" is not a sound argument. You are appealing to your own incredulity.

So then his master plan for the creation of man was a complete failure.

Non sequitur. Your conclusions and premises are inconsistent.

Then mankind become so corrupt by his actions and multiple sinful ways that he sent a flood to wipe them from the face of the earth. Another fail.

Why did man become so corrupt "by [God's] actions"? Delineate these actions and how they led to man's corruption.

He confuse human language after the destruction of Nimrod and the Tower of Babel incident so that they could not effectively communicate with each other. Another failure.

The "confusion of tongues" served to separate the descendants of Shem and the descendants of Ham. "Failure" is in the eye of your beer-holder.

Matthew 13: 40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mathew 13 comes well after these previous disasters sent onto the shoulders of mankind by god, and it appears that god still hadn't corrected a single one of his own previous errors, either!?

Why so many failures if god is said, and seen to be by millions, to be perfect? How many goes does he have to have before getting it right, before we are sent to the flames to face much gnashing of teeth in perpetuity?

Failure by whose measures? His or yours?

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07.17.2021 03:18PM

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@FLRW

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheists_in_science_and_technology

Once again: ad populum.

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07.17.2021 04:06PM

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@Athias

With Adam and Eve the failure is that they disobeyed god. But god created these pair. I didn’t. Yet I am told I will suffer in hell for three reasons.

(1) I apparently have inherited their sin.
You are not told that you will suffer in hell because you inherited their sin.

That is nice to hear. Thank you

So then his master plan for the creation of man was a complete failure.
Non sequitur. Your conclusions and premises are inconsistent.

Opinion.

Then mankind become so corrupt by his actions and multiple sinful ways that he sent a flood to wipe them from the face of the earth. Another fail.
Why did man become so corrupt "by [God's] actions"? Delineate these actions and how they led to man's corruption.

I didn't say gods actions. >> Then mankind become so corrupt by his actions .

He confuse human language after the destruction of Nimrod and the Tower of Babel incident so that they could not effectively communicate with each other. Another failure.
The "confusion of tongues" served to separate the descendants of Shem and the descendants of Ham.

I see. As in causing division. Why doesn't that surprise me. Nothings changed much has it. These gods just love setting one against another. It must keep them busy not to mention thoroughly amused. But then life is cheap to these gods, just read the sad story of Job, one of gods most faithful servants.https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job%201&version=NIV

But the script clearly indicates that the reason given for the confused tongues was that they had attempted to build a tower to heaven.

Genesis 11 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.

3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.

4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

NOPE! I see nothing there as indicating the reason you have given for the confusion of language. No Shem, no Ham even mentioned having anything to do with the confusion of languages . Although Shem is mentioned twice further in the chapter but only for the fact of his age and his generations.

Genesis 11: 10 These are the generations of Shem: Shem was an hundred years old, and begat Arphaxad two years after the flood:

11 And Shem lived after he begat Arphaxad five hundred years, and begat sons and daughters......

and Ham not at all.

Matthew 13: 40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mathew 13 comes well after these previous disasters sent onto the shoulders of mankind by god, and it appears that god still hadn't corrected a single one of his own previous errors, either!?

Why so many failures if god is said, and seen to be by millions, to be perfect? How many goes does he have to have before getting it right, before we are sent to the flames to face much gnashing of teeth in perpetuity?

Failure by whose measures? His or yours?

Mine. Because as god and the bible clearly show that he didn't get it right on three accessions. Why keep destroying and then rebuilding the same model. This is failure, BIG time.

"Failure" is in the eye of your beer-holder.

And you, it appears are seeing and "beholding" things that are not even written there.

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07.17.2021 05:01PM

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@FLRW

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheists_in_science_and_technology

I didn't see my name on that list.

BrotherDThomas

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BrotherDThomas

07.17.2021 06:25PM

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@Stephen

Stephen,

What makes your initial post of Jesus' plans are always failing, is the biblical axiom that Jesus knew they were going to FAIL because He is omniscient!

"For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything." (1 John 3:20)

"Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether." (Psalm 139:4)

"Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure." (Psalm 147:5)

As the ONLY True Christian upon this forum, that accepts ALL OF THE JUDEO-Christian Bible, I have learned to accept that Jesus, as the serial killer Yahweh God incarnate, knew beforehand that He was going to kill His creation in horrific drowning ways in the enactment of His Great Flood because of His godly omniscience, including innocent zygotes, fetus' and babies. :(

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07.17.2021 06:33PM

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@BrotherDThomas

.
Stephen,

What makes your initial post of Jesus' plans are always failing, is the biblical axiom that Jesus knew they were going to FAIL because He is omniscient!

"For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything." (1 John 3:20)

"Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether." (Psalm 139:4)

"Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure." (Psalm 147:5)

As the ONLY True Christian upon this forum, that accepts ALL OF THE JUDEO-Christian Bible, I have learned to accept that Jesus, as the serial killer Yahweh God incarnate, knew beforehand that He was going to kill His creation in horrific drowning ways in the enactment of His Great Flood because of His godly omniscience, including innocent zygotes, fetus' and babies. :(

You preempt me yet again, Brother.

ebuc

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ebuc

07.17.2021 07:38PM

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@Stephen

God = finite, occupied space Universe = rational, logical common sense.

God = anything other than the above, is perfectly irrational, illogical lack of common sense.

#10

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07.17.2021 08:38PM

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@Stephen

Opinion.

Be that as it may, your premises and conclusions are still inconsistent.

I didn't say gods actions. >> Then mankind become so corrupt by his actions .

Then don't use the singular possessive pronoun. Case in point: "the people became disgusted with his actions." That would make no sense if the pronoun was a referent to people. You're referring to a group and the pronoun must reflect this. The proper syntax is "Then mankind [became] so corrupt by [their] actions." If you intended to have a singular referent serve as an exemplar, then the proper syntax would read as "Then ['man' ][became] so corrupt by his actions."

...the more you know.

I see. As in causing division. Why doesn't that surprise me. Nothings changed much has it. These gods just love setting one against another. It must keep them busy not to mention thoroughly amused. But then life is cheap to these gods, just read the sad story of Job, one of gods most faithful servants.https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job%201&version=NIV

But the script clearly indicates that the reason given for the confused tongues was that they had attempted to build a tower to heaven.

Genesis 11 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.
4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

NOPE! I see nothing there as indicating the reason you have given for the confusion of language. No Shem, no Ham even mentioned having anything to do with the confusion of languages . Although Shem is mentioned twice further in the chapter but only for the fact of his age and his generations.

You cite text out of context. You take a single passage and you think that explains everything. Read the whole chapter. (And you'll find Shem's name.) While you're at it, take a stab at Genesis 10, as well.

Genesis 11: 10 These are the generations of Shem: Shem was an hundred years old, and begat Arphaxad two years after the flood:
11 And Shem lived after he begat Arphaxad five hundred years, and begat sons and daughters......

and Ham not at all.

You haven't read the Bible carefully have you? While in that specific passage there's no mention of Ham, there is an explicit mention of Canann in the following verses. Who is Canaan?

Mine. Because as god and the bible clearly show that he didn't get it right on three accessions. Why keep destroying and then rebuilding the same model. This is failure, BIG time.

Why should God or anyone else concern themselves with your measures?

And you, it appears are seeing and "beholding" things that are not even written there.

Seem is not an argument. [Appear and "seem" are synonyms.]

#11

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07.18.2021 01:43AM

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@Stephen

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheists_in_science_and_technology

I didn't see my name on that list.

Of course you didn't see your name on that list. You are not an atheist, are you? You are a theist. So please prove to us why God exists. Stop running away from the question.

#12

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07.18.2021 01:45AM

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@Stephen

You haven't read the Bible carefully have you? While in that specific passage there's no mention of Ham, there is an explicit mention of Canaan in the following verses. Who is Canaan?

I guess he is not the only one who has noticed.

#13

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07.18.2021 01:46AM

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@BrotherDThomas

As the ONLY True Christian upon this forum, that accepts ALL OF THE JUDEO-Christian Bible, I have learned to accept that Jesus, as the serial killer Yahweh God incarnate, knew beforehand that He was going to kill His creation in horrific drowning ways in the enactment of His Great Flood because of His godly omniscience, including innocent zygotes, fetus' and babies. :(

Given you are the only true christian, you alone should be able to answer this question. Prove the existence of God. Or will you run away again?

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#14

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07.18.2021 05:45AM

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@Athias

You cite text out of context.

AH. that good ol` favourite, " context". Quoting a FULL chapter from the bible is NOT quoting out of context by any means. The bible says what it says and not that which you want it to say. See this, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK7P7uZFf5o

You take a single passage and you think that explains everything

NOPE. AGAIN. I quoted a full chapter and left link to the FULL chapter with the ONLY reference to only one of the TWO characters that you injected into the story and that you say was the cause for confusion of language.

While in that specific passage there's no mention of Ham,

That's correct there isn't. But you attempted to inject both Ham (and Shem) into the context, it didn't work. Yet accuse me of taking all of the chapter out of context. Your attempted slight of hand hasn't worked.

Mine. Because as god and the bible clearly show that he didn't get it right on three accessions. Why keep destroying and then rebuilding the same model. This is failure, BIG time.

Why should God or anyone else concern themselves with your measures?

You didn't answer the question. I asked you - Why keep destroying only to then rebuild the same model?

#15

zedvictor4

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zedvictor4

07.18.2021 07:17AM

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@Stephen

The Christian GOD is an imperfect hypothesis.....Human failure to understand, based upon a lack of information.

So based upon themselves, they created an imaginary magical floaty about bloke, and a myriad of whacky tales.

Of course, this is what people had been doing for millennia Stephen, all over the World.

Absolutely nothing new in absurd and imperfect religions.

#16

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07.18.2021 07:39AM

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@Stephen

Quoting a FULL chapter from the bible is NOT quoting out of context by any means.

You did not quote a "FULL" chapter; you quoted 11 verses of a 32 verse chapter; that would be a third of its full amount.

The bible says what it says and not that which you want it to say.

You should keep that it mind.

See this, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK7P7uZFf5o

Not interested.

NOPE. AGAIN. I quoted a full chapter and left link to the FULL chapter

You most certainly did neither; you linked only to the chapter of Job.

with the ONLY reference to only one of the TWO characters that you injected into the story and that you say was the cause for confusion of language.

Non sequitur. I never said that Shem and Ham were the "cause" for the confusion of languages. I specifically stated:

The "confusion of tongues" served to separate the descendants of Shem and the descendants of Ham.

You don't read carefully.

While in that specific passage there's no mention of Ham,

That's correct there isn't. But you attempted to inject both Ham (and Shem) into the context, it didn't work. Yet accuse me of taking all of the chapter out of context. Your attempted slight of hand hasn't worked.

Once again, who is Canaan?

You didn't answer the question. I asked you - Why keep destroying only to then rebuild the same model?

You didn't ask a question until just now. And you're responding to my question with a question. Why should anyone, or God, concern themselves with your measures? And consider this my response to your question.

Topic's author

#17

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07.18.2021 08:48AM

You most certainly did neither

So then here you are. SEE below. It shows how YOU injected both characters into " confusion of languages" narrative. With only one of your chosen characters appearing in whole chapter and only for the sake of highlighting his line /"genealogy" and when he died, starting at verse 10 . And the other character - Ham - THAT YOU INJECTED into the chapter , doesn't appear at all. The chapter relates nothing about the " confusion of tongues" being anything to do with Ham or Shem as YOU will have us believe and have injected into the chapter;

This is what YOU have said and wanted us to accept:

The "confusion of tongues" served to separate the descendants of Shem and the descendants of Ham.#3 Athias

You are full of shite.

HERE READ IT FFS!

Genesis 11

The Tower of Babel

11 Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. 2 As people moved eastward,they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.

3 They said to each other, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.”

5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”

8 So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel—because there the Lord confused the language of the whole world. From there the Lord scattered them over the face of the whole earth.

10 This is the account of Shem’s family line.

Two years after the flood, when Shem was 100 years old, he became the father of Arphaxad. 11 And after he became the father of Arphaxad, Shem lived 500 years and had other sons and daughters.

12 When Arphaxad had lived 35 years, he became the father of Shelah. 13 And after he became the father of Shelah, Arphaxad lived 403 years and had other sons and daughters.

14 When Shelah had lived 30 years, he became the father of Eber. 15 And after he became the father of Eber, Shelah lived 403 years and had other sons and daughters.

16 When Eber had lived 34 years, he became the father of Peleg. 17 And after he became the father of Peleg, Eber lived 430 years and had other sons and daughters.

18 When Peleg had lived 30 years, he became the father of Reu. 19 And after he became the father of Reu, Peleg lived 209 years and had other sons and daughters.

20 When Reu had lived 32 years, he became the father of Serug. 21 And after he became the father of Serug, Reu lived 207 years and had other sons and daughters.

22 When Serug had lived 30 years, he became the father of Nahor. 23 And after he became the father of Nahor, Serug lived 200 years and had other sons and daughters.

24 When Nahor had lived 29 years, he became the father of Terah. 25 And after he became the father of Terah, Nahor lived 119 years and had other sons and daughters.

26 After Terah had lived 70 years, he became the father of Abram, Nahor and Haran.

Abram’s Family

27 This is the account of Terah’s family line.

Terah became the father of Abram, Nahor and Haran. And Haran became the father of Lot. 28 While his father Terah was still alive, Haran died in Ur of the Chaldeans, in the land of his birth. 29 Abram and Nahor both married. The name of Abram’s wife was Sarai, and the name of Nahor’s wife was Milkah; she was the daughter of Haran, the father of both Milkah and Iskah. 30 Now Sarai was childless because she was not able to conceive.

31 Terah took his son Abram, his grandson Lot son of Haran, and his daughter-in-law Sarai, the wife of his son Abram, and together they set out from Ur of the Chaldeans to go to Canaan. But when they came to Harran, they settled there.

32 Terah lived 205 years, and he died in Harran.

I never said that Shem and Ham were the "cause" for the confusion of languages.

Ok, So fkn what?! Why then even bother to inject them into a thread and a BIBLICAL chapter when neither has anything to do with my point concerning the confusion of languages and the fall of the Babel tower?

You didn't answer the question. I asked you - Why keep destroying only to then rebuild the same model?
You didn't ask a question until just now.

I did, stop fkn lying. I ask you directly after your first response to me HERE>>>>#5 Stephen

"Failure" is in the eye of your beer-holder.

Indeed, there are none so blind as those that see things that are not there.

#18

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Posts: 3,192

07.18.2021 12:48PM

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@Stephen

So then here you are. SEE below. It shows how YOU injected both characters into " confusion of languages" narrative. With only one of your chosen characters appearing in whole chapter and only for the sake of highlighting his line /"genealogy" and when he died, starting at verse 10 . And the other character - Ham - THAT YOU INJECTED into the chapter , doesn't appear at all. The chapter relates nothing about the " confusion of tongues" being anything to do with Ham or Shem as YOU will have us believe and have injected into the chapter;

I never said Ham's name appeared in the chapter. I specifically said that you'd find Shem's name, which one does:

Read the whole chapter. (And you'll find Shem's name.)

I also said "The 'confusion of tongues' served to separate the descendants of Shem and the descendants of Ham." You've already conceded to this being half-correct. Now this is going to be the last time I ask this, otherwise consider our discussion over: WHO IS CANAAN? If you have no intention of answering this question, then enjoy the rest of your day, sir, because I have no interest in wasting any more of my time.

You are full of shite.

I'm full of shit, and yet, you've already conceded to a portion of my point, not to mention, your lying twice. Until now, you never quoted the full chapter and you never linked to it. Which one of us is full of shit?

Ok, So fkn what?!

You were wrong--that's so fucking what.

Why then even bother to inject them into a thread and a BIBLICAL chapter when neither has anything to do with my point concerning the confusion of languages and the fall of the Babel tower?

You don't have a point--not a substantial one at least. Who built Babel? Who commissioned the building of the Tower of Babel? What was his name? What was his father's name? And more importantly, what was his grandfather's name? And let's remember, I told you to read Genesis chapter 10, as well:

While you're at it, take a stab at Genesis 10, as well.

To understand the reason the tower fell, one must understand the reason it was built. And your quoting 11 verses is indeed taking the account out of context.

I did, stop fkn lying. I ask you directly after your first response to me HERE>>>>#5 Stephen

The only established liar as far as this thread is concerned is you. And once again:

Mine. Because as god and the bible clearly show that he didn't get it right on three accessions. Why keep destroying and then rebuilding the same model. This is failure, BIG time.

This is not a question especially if the inquiry is responded to by the very same person who cast it. (Not to mention, your grammar and punctuation are terrible.)

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#19

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