Government wants to control your life?

Author: Double_R

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@Double_R
I mean no disrespect
Yeah, you do. You're saying "hmmm, you think politicians are greedy, power hungry sociopaths? Must be projection and YOU'RE the greedy power hungry sociopath!" Very disappointing because we have had productive conversations in the past, but this clearly isn't going to be one. I'm not going to hold it against you, but I'm dipping out.

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@Double_R
The non-vaccinated do not cause or contribute to the immunocompromised becoming ill.
That is just factually, mathematically wrong. If you are vaccinated you are far less likely to contact the disease and therefore far less likely to spread it. You don’t even need to read the studies on that, just look around. The virus is surging everywhere where vaccination rates are low.
It helps to think this through, logically.  A person who is immunocompromised --- but VACCINATED --- is no more likely to catch COVID from a person who is vaccinated than from someone who is not, because they are immunized.  That's the whole point of the vaccines.   Whether you're immunocompromised or not is inconsequential to whether you're vaccinated. 

So again, the non-vaccinated do not cause or contribute to the immunocompromised becoming ill.  It's on the immunocompromised person to get the vaccine.

It is, first of all, a pretty dishonest characterization of what the left is doing. Lockdowns occurred early on before we understood what we were dealing with and how to combat it. 
That is incorrect, although consistent with what the politicans at least claim.  "Who could have possibly known lockdowns wouldn't work?" and "We all did our best under the circumstances!" they say.  All bullshit.  There was not then, nor has there ever been, any kind of scientific consensus that lockdowns were a necessdary or even appropriate response to any pandemic situation of the type COVID presened --- even as COVID was understood before and during the initial wave of lockdowns.  That was an unsupported, fringe scientific opinion supported by exactly no one that had never been implemented and had no established efficacy rate.  It was complete speculation to think they'd ever make a difference, and it turns out they did not.  

Many, many people made this point at all relevant times before and during the first wave of COVID inside and outside of this country.  But they were attacked by the scientifically and mathematically illiterate on purely partisan grounds.  It was unconscionable what took place.  

So I shouldn’t trust any doctor who explains anything publicly, but if they say nothing publicly then I never hear from them at all. Sounds like heads I win tails you lose.
I said be automatically skeptical,  not "do not trust." 

What democrats comprehend is how science works. 
Some of them might, but if the evidence you're going to cite in support of their scientific competencies is the modeling used to justify lockdowns, I've got some bad news for you.  They might be able to repeat the conclusions of others, but they don't understand the first thing about the methods used to reach those conclusions.

That's the key difference: you can't claim to "understand science" or "comprehend science" with just the results; because results are often wrong, especially where they're the product of unreliable methods not recognized or adopted by others in the field.

We can talk about why if you like.  

By the way, I am not implying that republicans (unlike democrats) understand this either.  But Republicans don't hold themselves out as being competent when they are not.  

We take his word as representative of the best available information to date, not as the ultimate truth. It’s not his fault so many are scientifically illiterate and so many other talking heads are willing to prey on that.
So that's the problem.  People took Fauci at his word when his peers spoke under their breath the entire time this fiasco was going on that he was off his rocker.  

And no one even bothered to question him.  Even though there was no shortage of subject matter on which to question nearly all of what he said. 

Science is not a process wherein all-knowing-sensi "top doc" proclaims to the world what "the science" says.  It's a discursive process based on the application of repeatable methods that are recognized to produce reliable results, to figure out what is objectively true in the world.  What Fauci did is the exact opposite; and the efforts to censor anyone who says otherwise, like Rand Paul, are reflections of the extent to which this was never about science at all.  It's about politics and power, which is why Fauci has no credibility whatsoever. 


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@coal
It was unconscionable what took place.  
What's even worse is the ongoing double down by the California teacher's union demanding only remote learning take place for an indefinite period of time while teachers get full pay working from home. There is no crisis bar that can't be redefined when the government unions wield uncontested power.

Only in a State of gullible people who have no capacity to question authority can this possibly happen.
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@coal
A person who is immunocompromised --- but VACCINATED --- is no more likely to catch COVID from a person who is vaccinated than from someone who is not, because they are immunized.
The person who is vaccinated is less likely to catch COVID in the first place, so yes, the unvaccinated person does pose a greater risk. This is really basic stuff.

That is incorrect, although consistent with what the politicans at least claim.
No, it's a factual claim that I, not a politician, am making. And I know this because I was there.

There was not then, nor has there ever been, any kind of scientific consensus that lockdowns were a necessdary or even appropriate response to any pandemic situation of the type COVID presened
That's because lockdowns is a political question, not a scientific one. Science doesn't tell you how to balance freedom vs safety. Science doesn't tell you how people will react to being told to close down and stay home. The science on this is quite simple, do not congregate with others and there will be less spread of contagious disease. It's not complicated.

Science is not a process wherein all-knowing-sensi "top doc" proclaims to the world what "the science" says.  It's a discursive process based on the application of repeatable methods that are recognized to produce reliable results, to figure out what is objectively true in the world.  What Fauci did is the exact opposite; and the efforts to censor anyone who says otherwise, like Rand Paul, are reflections of the extent to which this was never about science at all.  It's about politics and power, which is why Fauci has no credibility whatsoever. 
You speak about this as if you were born after COVID and have no understanding of what it is like to live through a pandemic.

When people are dying by the thousands and no one really knows why, you don't just go about your business and wait for the scientists to develop a full tested final report. You react and you make the best decisions you can with the best information you can. That's common sense.

The fact that ignorant people who have no idea how science works took health experts word as gospel (or pretended we were supposed to) is not the fault of Fauci or any other health expert who god forbid got something wrong about a diseases we had never seen before.
Double_R
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@thett3
Yeah, you do. You're saying "hmmm, you think politicians are greedy, power hungry sociopaths? Must be projection and YOU'RE the greedy power hungry sociopath!" Very disappointing because we have had productive conversations in the past, but this clearly isn't going to be one. I'm not going to hold it against you, but I'm dipping out.
It's literally, the entire point of this thread. But ok bro.

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@Greyparrot
What a hilariously ironic statement from a partisan hack.
Put together a current thought that takes up two sentences and then you can speak to me.
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@Double_R
It's literally, the entire point of this thread. But ok bro.
Why make the thread asking the question if you don’t actually want answers? You asked why conservatives think what they do on this issue. I gave you an explanation (mostly extreme levels of distrust and disillusionment combined with a reflexive anti authoritarianism) and your response is “wow, projection much?” I mean okay…if you’re trying to get a dunk on someone whatever but that’s not the behavior of someone truly trying to understand the other side 
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@Double_R
Put together a current thought that takes up two sentences and then you can speak to me.

Why am I not surprised you missed the irony of your statement? whoosh.
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@Double_R
We desperately need to teach critical thinking and epistemology, 
Double_R
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@thett3
Why make the thread asking the question if you don’t actually want answers? You asked why conservatives think what they do on this issue. I gave you an explanation (mostly extreme levels of distrust and disillusionment combined with a reflexive anti authoritarianism)
I asked because I'm trying to understand, and I don't accept that answer because I'd like to think higher of those who profess it. The point of the thread wasn't to ask and simply get an answer, the point is to discuss how that answer makes sense. So I explained to you why it makes no sense and gave you my view as to what I see behind it, all you did was complain that I'm trying to dunk on you or whatever. It's a debate site, if you aren't willing to defend you're views you shouldn't have bothered.

As far as why I don't accept that answer it's because as I've already explained multiple times in this thread, there is no logical connection between "I don't trust the government" and "I think all these mandates that all of the health experts are recommending are really just because they're trying to control us". This is like telling someone you have a headache and they hand you an aspirin, and your response is "what are you really after?". It's paranoid and delusional.
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@Double_R
You shouldn’t expect to be that impressed by the answers from your political opponents or else they would cease to be your political opponents. We view the world differently. To me, it’s absolutely shocking that you DONT view the elites as having the amount of malice I think they have amply demonstrated time and time again. But that’s okay. We think differently. But you shouldn’t impugn my motives, and state that I’m the one who wants to hurt people for my own benefit and sadistic pleasure just because I think
many politicians do. That is way over the line. 


3RU7AL
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@Double_R
This is like telling someone you have a headache and they hand you an aspirin, and your response is "what are you really after?". It's paranoid and delusional.
When someone offers me a pill, I might consider taking it (I generally don't accept pills from strangers).

When someone tells me I must take their pill, or suffer the consequences, I'm much less likely to trust them.
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@thett3
I still can't believe he projected without skipping a beat that ALL people project.

That's some really deep dysfunction.

This sweeping projection assumes there are zero people alive with nuance or perspective.

That there are zero people alive that choose to introspectively evaluate their cognitive dissonance instead of projecting fabricated traits onto ALL people to resolve their dissonance.
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@Greyparrot
I still can't believe he projected without skipping a beat that ALL people project.

That's some really deep dysfunction.

This sweeping projection assumes there are zero people alive with nuance or perspective.
Ehh even though he annoyed me in this thread I still think he's a nice guy generally. I don't want to accuse him of more than I think he deserves. If he became dictator tomorrow I don't expect that my life would become significantly worse, can't say the same about far too many people (who unfortunately are concentrated in positions of power)
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@thett3
Ehh even though he annoyed me in this thread I still think he's a nice guy generally. I don't want to accuse him of more than I think he deserves. If he became dictator tomorrow I don't expect that my life would become significantly worse, can't say the same about far too many people (who unfortunately are concentrated in positions of power)
It goes a long way to explain why bastions of power persist for decades and generations uncontested and with zero outrage in dystopias like California, Chicago, Detroit, Baltimore, DC, New York.

There's always something to project blame onto.

I heard a frightening revelation about Cuomo's departure, that he is considered the LEAST far-left "progressive" out of the others vying to fill the power vacuum. That's really depressing.

New Yorkers are a part of a strange culture for sure.
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@Greyparrot
It goes a long way to explain why bastions of power persist for decades and generations uncontested and with zero outrage in dystopias like California, Chicago, Detroit, Baltimore, DC, New York.
California in particular is just wild. Large parts of California allow people to steal, defecate publicly, openly do drugs...I really hope Newsom gets recalled, or that it is at least close. I have some optimism that the Dem coalition is on the verge of collapses because minorities hate the violence and social dysfunction that a lot of white libs enable
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@Greyparrot
I still can't believe he projected without skipping a beat that ALL people project.
I don't pretend to know the motives and or general psychological and or moral state of anyone I happen to be speaking with.
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@3RU7AL
I don't pretend to know the motives and or general psychological and or moral state of anyone I happen to be speaking with.

Me either. It takes a special type of narcissist to be that condescending and pompous.
Double_R
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@3RU7AL
When someone offers me a pill, I might consider taking it (I generally don't accept pills from strangers).

When someone tells me I must take their pill, or suffer the consequences, I'm much less likely to trust them.
I would just look around and take notice that nearly everyone who has taken the pill is fine while 99% of the people who are hospitalized or dying haven’t taken the pill, and base my decision on that. But do you.

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@3RU7AL
I don't pretend to know the motives and or general psychological and or moral state of anyone I happen to be speaking with.
Neither do I
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@Double_R
I would just look around and take notice that nearly everyone who has taken the pill is fine while 99% of the people who are hospitalized or dying haven’t taken the pill, and base my decision on that. But do you.
I know two people who had no chronic health issues before taking the mRNA "vaccine" and subsequently suffered from severe blood clots within weeks of receiving the "magical cure-all".

Certainly this may be sheer "coincidence", but it would seem some measure of caution is not "unreasonable".

ALSO,

CDC data also show that Americans, regardless of age group, are far more likely to die of something other than COVID-19. Even among those in the most heavily impacted age group (85 and older), only 13.3 percent of all deaths since February 2020 were due to COVID-19. [**]