The Biblical Yahweh is not an All-Loving god

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08.03.2021 01:15AM

Intro

It is common to see Christians ascribe the property of 'Omnibenevolence' to Yahweh. It gets taught by priests to their congregants, parents to their children, and even theologians to their audiences/students. It is nice to think that there is a powerful force out there that has an unconditional love for all things, including you, but the problem is that this just is not Biblical. This does not mean that a Christian cannot subscribe to the idea that Yahweh is all-loving, but that just means that they have to, on some level, reject the Biblical depiction of him.

And I know, many people are probably getting ready with the common argument that 'god hates the sin and not the sinner', but I have to tell you that the Bible disagrees.

Why the Biblical Yahweh is not 'Omnibenevolent'

It isn't hard to see why the idea that Yahweh is all-loving is sometimes seen as Biblical, after all we have verse like John 3:16 and 1 John 4:8.

John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
1 John 4:8 - "Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love."

The problem is that using just these verses is very much cherry picking the Bible to get as good a look at who Yahweh is as possible. When we look at more scripture this idea of Yahweh being all-loving falls apart.

John 3:16 is shown to not mean Yahweh is all-loving in John 15:18-19, so in this case we don't even need to go to a different book of the Bible.

John 15:18-19 - "“If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world*, but* I have chosen you out of the world*. That is why the world hates you."*

God so loves the world, but not everyone belongs to the world. In fact people can be 'chosen out' of the world. This is not all-loving, this is loving only those 'of the world' and not all are 'of the world.

We also see in Proverbs that Yahweh's love is conditional, Yahweh loves those that love him:

Proverbs 8:17 - "I love those who love me, and those who seek me find me."

We even have verses where Yahweh explicitly hates people. It is not Yahweh 'hating the sin not the sinner' but explicitly hating the 'sinner'.

Proverbs 6:16-19 - "These six things the Lord hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him: A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood, A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil, A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren."
Leviticus 26:27-30 - "'And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me, then I also will walk contrary to you in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you secen times for your sins. You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters. I will destroy your high places, cut down you incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols; and My soul shall abhor you."
Hosea 9:15 - ""All their wickedness is in Gilgal, For there I hated them. Because of the ebil of their deeds I will drive them from My house; I will love them no more."
Malachi 1:2-3 - "Says the Lord. "Yet Jacob I have loved; But Esau I have hated, and laid waste he mountains and his heritage For the jackals of the wilderness.""
Leviticus 20:23 - "And you shall not walk in the statues of the nation which I am casting out before you; for they commit all these things, and therefore I abhor them."
Romans 9:13 - "As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Easu I have hated.""

Of course there still is a question about 1 John 4:8. Even with all this evidence that Yahweh hates, that not all get Yahweh's love there is a verse that says that Yahweh is love. This is the greatest issue with the Biblical Yahweh is that not all verses are consistent, but I think that Biblically there is more reason to reject the idea that Yahweh is love than accept it. Not only all the verses already provided which shows not all get Yahweh's love and that some even get Yahweh's hate, but two other verses together explicitly contradict the idea that Yahweh is love.

1 Corinthians 13:4 - "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud."
Exodus 34:14 - "Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God."

Yahweh himself says he is a jealous god, and if we take the understanding of what love is from Paul then it is clear that if Yahweh is a jealous god that Yahweh cannot be love. Only one verse from one book of the Bible makes a clear case that Yahweh might be all-loving but so many books from across the Old and New Testaments show, in some cases quite explicitly, that Yahweh is not all-loving.

The above verses don't aren't even all of them that show Yahweh isn't all-loving, but considering how the majority of the rest come from Psalms, a book that is meant to be more poetic and thus not necessarily accurate in portrayal, I decided to omit mention of them.

Conclusion

I think that it is quite conclusive, if you believe in the Biblical Yahweh then you do not believe in an all-loving god. It isn't enough to say Yahweh 'hates the sin' because it is explicit in places that Yahweh does sometimes hate the sinner. If you wish to believe in an all-loving Yahweh you must go outside of the Biblical portrayal, you must abandon, on some level, the Biblical texts. The question I have is how much of the Bible must one reject before what they believe is no longer Christianity?

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08.03.2021 02:02AM

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@TheMorningsStar

i'm a liberal christian, and i think it's a fair point worth exploring "The question I have is how much of the Bible must one reject before what they believe is no longer Christianity?"

i try to reconcile near death experiences with christianity. in as far as that's possible, it describes my world view pretty well. with that said, i say God loves everyone, but that there are consequences to one's actions. this idea is compatible with NDEs and christianity as a general rule.

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08.03.2021 02:07AM

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@n8nrgmi

For me I just find Christians so easy to accept that the creation story is a myth, Noah is a myth, the Exodus is a myth, etc., and then thinking that Yahweh is all-loving, all-powerful (I will make a post on that another time), etc. that, when you consider it, many of their religious beliefs are not actually found in the Bible and they reject so much of what the Bible says. Not everything, of course, but it really makes me question things. Pagans are not mythic literalists, none of the stories we have are meant to be taken as anything more than a story, but so often Christians talk about the Bible as something more yet they seem not to even know what is in the Bible.

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08.03.2021 02:07AM

i also think you are taking the hate verses too literally. and stuff like God being jealous and love being not jeolous, that's too literal too.

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08.03.2021 02:09AM

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@TheMorningsStar

fundamentalism makes no sense. i might even say it's wicked. things like noah being just a story yet so many wanting to insist it's not. it violates truth. that's evil.

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08.03.2021 02:12AM

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@n8nrgmi

i also think you are taking the hate verses too literally

How can we be sure that the hate verses are the ones that should not be interpreted literally? Why not the love verses?

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08.03.2021 02:16AM

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@TheMorningsStar

i believe in NDEs. that experiences by far emphasizes love. to reconcile that with the bible, the focus should be on the love verses. 'hate' might just mean dislike or something like that. i might be wrong to have the premise of looking to NDEs, but i strongly would disagree.

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08.03.2021 02:21AM

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@TheMorningsStar

i think u will or could find some more fundamentalist chrisitans to argue with. they will engage in gymnastics. it's best to recognize those types do that. it's fun to debate just for the heck of it, and to educate people, but in the end, it's an exercise in futility and should be recognized as such from the get go. people generally just dont change their opinions in debates, no matter what.

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08.03.2021 02:24AM

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@TheMorningsStar

Intro
It is common to see Christians ascribe the property of 'Omnibenevolence' to Yahweh. It gets taught by priests to their congregants, parents to their children, and even theologians to their audiences/students. It is nice to think that there is a powerful force out there that has an unconditional love for all things, including you, but the problem is that this just is not Biblical. This does not mean that a Christian cannot subscribe to the idea that Yahweh is all-loving, but that just means that they have to, on some level, reject the Biblical depiction of him.
And I know, many people are probably getting ready with the common argument that 'god hates the sin and not the sinner', but I have to tell you that the Bible disagrees.

Surely, you recognize this as a strawman argument. It is very often non-Christians who ascribe this as a Christian position. The only Christians that ascribe this position - and I am not entirely sure they do it consistently are the liberals amongst us. I do not believe that I have ever suggested that God is all benevolent. If that was the case then Jesus would not have needed to die on a cross. And more than that - there would be no judgment in the Bible and furthermore, the entire notion of Hell would make no sense.

In relation to your "god hates the sin and not the sinner". Christians fully realise that God will thrown the sinner into Hell along with the sin. So again I am surprised you are going al out for this strawman argument.

Why the Biblical Yahweh is not 'Omnibenevolent'
It isn't hard to see why the idea that Yahweh is all-loving is sometimes seen as Biblical, after all we have verse like John 3:16 and 1 John 4:8.
John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
1 John 4:8 - "Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love."

John 3:16 - tells us two things. God loves the world. (Mind you - the question of "world" here is not necessarily understood) but if you read the verse very closely - it tells us - that if you don't believe in Jesus - you PERISH.

the second verse- indicates a similar thing - if you don't know God, you don't know love. Interestingly, this verse indicates that you a pagan do not understand what love is - so from a Christian point of view - the very fact that you are trying to suggest God is not all loving is pretty ironic.

The problem is that using just these verses is very much cherry picking the Bible to get as good a look at who Yahweh is as possible. When we look at more scripture this idea of Yahweh being all-loving falls apart.

Funnily enough - I would never have used either of those verses to demonstrate an all loving God. But I don't believe in an omnibenovelent god.

John 3:16 is shown to not mean Yahweh is all-loving in John 15:18-19, so in this case we don't even need to go to a different book of the Bible.
John 15:18-19 - "“If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world*, but* I have chosen you out of the world*. That is why the world hates you."*

God so loves the world, but not everyone belongs to the world. In fact people can be 'chosen out' of the world. This is not all-loving, this is loving only those 'of the world' and not all are 'of the world.
We also see in Proverbs that Yahweh's love is conditional, Yahweh loves those that love him:
Proverbs 8:17 - "I love those who love me, and those who seek me find me."

I think it depends on what you mean by the word love. In the Greek there are at least 4 different definitions and meanings. But in the Hebrew the word love is attached to the covenant.

We even have verses where Yahweh explicitly hates people. It is not Yahweh 'hating the sin not the sinner' but explicitly hating the 'sinner'.
Proverbs 6:16-19 - "These six things the Lord hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him: A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood, A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil, A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren."
Leviticus 26:27-30 - "'And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me, then I also will walk contrary to you in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you secen times for your sins. You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters. I will destroy your high places, cut down you incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols; and My soul shall abhor you."
Hosea 9:15 - ""All their wickedness is in Gilgal, For there I hated them. Because of the ebil of their deeds I will drive them from My house; I will love them no more."
Malachi 1:2-3 - "Says the Lord. "Yet Jacob I have loved; But Esau I have hated, and laid waste he mountains and his heritage For the jackals of the wilderness.""
Leviticus 20:23 - "And you shall not walk in the statues of the nation which I am casting out before you; for they commit all these things, and therefore I abhor them."
Romans 9:13 - "As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Easu I have hated.""
Of course there still is a question about 1 John 4:8. Even with all this evidence that Yahweh hates, that not all get Yahweh's love there is a verse that says that Yahweh is love. This is the greatest issue with the Biblical Yahweh is that not all verses are consistent, but I think that Biblically there is more reason to reject the idea that Yahweh is love than accept it. Not only all the verses already provided which shows not all get Yahweh's love and that some even get Yahweh's hate, but two other verses together explicitly contradict the idea that Yahweh is love.
1 Corinthians 13:4 - "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud."
Exodus 34:14 - "Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God."

As I said - you make a strawman and then you defeat it. You champion you.

Yahweh himself says he is a jealous god, and if we take the understanding of what love is from Paul then it is clear that if Yahweh is a jealous god that Yahweh cannot be love. Only one verse from one book of the Bible makes a clear case that Yahweh might be all-loving but so many books from across the Old and New Testaments show, in some cases quite explicitly, that Yahweh is not all-loving.
The above verses don't aren't even all of them that show Yahweh isn't all-loving, but considering how the majority of the rest come from Psalms, a book that is meant to be more poetic and thus not necessarily accurate in portrayal, I decided to omit mention of them.

whatever.

Conclusion
I think that it is quite conclusive, if you believe in the Biblical Yahweh then you do not believe in an all-loving god. It isn't enough to say Yahweh 'hates the sin' because it is explicit in places that Yahweh does sometimes hate the sinner. If you wish to believe in an all-loving Yahweh you must go outside of the Biblical portrayal, you must abandon, on some level, the Biblical texts. The question I have is how much of the Bible must one reject before what they believe is no longer Christianity?

Hip Hip Hooray. I do think it is necessary to understand that love and hate are not mutually exclusive concepts. We can love and hate people all of the time. We also use the terms love and hate in various ways. As they are used in the Bible. Nevertheless, I agree with you. The notion that God is all loving to all people and to demons and such is difficult to maintain. Yet, as I said above - Christians are not the ones who hold to this strawman concept of God. It is typically the athiest and non-Christian who use it and then break it down. within Christian circles - often it most likely you will find liberal christians who hold to this. they prefer to think god is all loving - not all powerful. Not all knowing. for them - God is love -and for them love is the most powerful force in the universe. They tend to take half of the bible as good - the part which paints God in a nice way. They tend not to talk about sin or evil. They tend not to talk about Jesus needing to die on a cross - unless it is as a martyr. They tend not to talk about Hell. Or that Jesus' death atoned for sin. Yet, it is debatable whether such Liberal Christians fall within the historical boundaries of Christianity.

#10

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08.03.2021 02:29AM

the reason i say the fundamentalists will engage in gymnastics.... they have no reason why love should be emphasized instead of hate. the God of the bible seems angry and hateful, much or most of the time, at least in the old testament. they also can't deny that the bible depicts God as conditional love. you have to look outside the bible to say that insofar as the bible makes God's love conditional, it's mistaken.... a man made concept. they can't conclude that sorta thing with just the bible as their source. God loves everyone unconditionally, but that doesn't mean there aren't consequences to one's actions.

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#11

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https://www.gotquestions.org/God-omnibenevolent.html

08.03.2021 02:45AM

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@Tradesecret

Surely, you recognize this as a strawman argument. It is very often non-Christians who ascribe this as a Christian position

Oh yes, such a strawman that you cannot find popular Christian websites professing just that belief...

https://www.compellingtruth.org/God-omnibenevolent.html

Even a popular Christian apologist, William Lane Craig, never tries to find explanations around some of these passages to uphold the idea of an all-loving/Omnibenevolent god /s

https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/question-answer/gods-unconditional-love/

(this was from a 5 second google search btw, probably won't be hard to find other sources)

#12

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08.03.2021 02:55AM

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@TheMorningsStar

It still is a strawman argument.

That you have not countered.

And even in the first link I looked at - it describes the term quite differently to the way you do.

If the term means God is good. And totally good. Then that is correct. That is quite different to saying he is all loving.

What makes something good? Is it your human understanding of good - or what God calls good?

#13

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08.03.2021 03:00AM

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@Tradesecret

how would you justify disagreeing with an atheist if he said God is more hateful than loving?

do you agree that the God of the bible is conditional love?

do you agree with my presumption that you are disregarding 90% of christians when you say christians have your concept of God as very conditional about his love? i realize the road to perdition is wide, but i dont think it's safe to assume the majority of chrisitanity gets it wrong and only your and your ilk have it right. most christians think God loves everyone and it's common for them to think God loves everyone unconditionally. the fact that the bible depicts something else doesn't mean most christians are wrong, it just means that you have made an idol of the bible. the spirit guides christians, yet you disagree with a large majority of them, which might be fair to say you disagree with the consensus. most folks are wishy washy though, so it's hard to say exactly what the consensus is, granted, but i think i'm more right about this than you.

#14

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08.03.2021 03:18AM

"Frankly, Bridger, I’m appalled at the fact that some Christians have an understanding of God’s love which is comparable to that of the Qur’an. They actually think that God does not love all people unconditionally. They have failed to understand something so fundamental and basic to Christian discipleship: God’s wonderful love."

#15

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08.03.2021 03:32AM

it might be safe to assume me and Trade only disagree about who is saved, and who God shows unconditional love to. we probably agree that full love is communion, and it's not possible to commune with evil. it's possible to love the sinner and hate the sin, even if you dont commune with them.

i dont think the bible even says all unbelievers are damned though. it only says rejecting jesus means damnation, and to me that means a full sense enough to reject the truth. emphasis 'rejecting' jesus. not the folks on an island. and to my understanding, not the people who dont know any better. a sin is willful engagment of wrongdoing, period. even that popular John verse that says God loves the world, says the reason some folks are condemned is because they reject the light. they reject the truth. even if i'm wrong and everyone who rejects jesus is damned, at the very least they have to know of him and reject him. that's very explicit in all the specific verses of who gets damned.

#16

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08.03.2021 07:13AM

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@n8nrgmi

how would you justify disagreeing with an atheist if he said God is more hateful than loving?

I think Atheists do think that. And why wouldn't they? God is not happy with Atheists. And they are on a way ticket to a place that is not very pleasant. But it is their choice. They choose not to believe in God. And they choose to hate this God they don't believe in. And they choose to accept by direct implication whatever consequences fall their way. I don't have any sympathy for them. (Don't misunderstand that point. I am not saying I don't have sympathy for non-Christians. I am saying I don't have any sympathy for the person who chooses to reject God - specifically in respect to that rejection. I can have sympathy for them on many other levels)

Of course I would also add that God still extends grace to the Atheist. He gives them life. He makes it rain. He provides food for them. And none of this do they deserve. Mind you, neither do I.

do you agree that the God of the bible is conditional love?

That is a great question. I think that the whole idea of conditional v unconditional love is overdone. I as a parent love my children. And for the most part it is unconditional. Yet this does not mean that there might not come a point when I stop loving them. Yet, even that does not mean I would stop caring for them. If any of my children decided to kill my wife or their siblings or their own spouse or children, then I might find it very difficult to maintain a decent attitude towards them. If they became a pedophile, I might find it difficult to know how to love them. I certainly would not love their actions and I would accept that they need to be punished and stopped in their tracks. Would I stop caring for them? If they burnt my house down or told me they hated me - would I simply let it go? Probably not. I don't have an issue with disinheriting my children. But would I stop caring for them? Probably not. I can't make my children do the right thing. And the question is - if I could make them, would I? After all, it I made them, then it does not change them - it only means they are obedient - it does not change their heart.

do you agree with my presumption that you are disregarding 90% of christians when you say christians have your concept of God as very conditional about his love? i realize the road to perdition is wide, but i dont think it's safe to assume the majority of chrisitanity gets it wrong and only your and your ilk have it right. most christians think God loves everyone and it's common for them to think God loves everyone unconditionally. the fact that the bible depicts something else doesn't mean most christians are wrong, it just means that you have made an idol of the bible. the spirit guides christians, yet you disagree with a large majority of them, which might be fair to say you disagree with the consensus. most folks are wishy washy though, so it's hard to say exactly what the consensus is, granted, but i think i'm more right about this than you.

No. I don't agree with you. 100% of Christians know that they are saved by grace. This means they understand that they don't deserve God's love. They would never even really consider that God's love towards them is either conditional or unconditional. God could love everyone - but this does not mean that he would ignore their sin. Or that he would not send them to Hell. God is not only love but he is holy. And he is just. One thing he is not - is a liar. Many Christians would like to think that God is a liar - and that he does not mean what he says when he talks about Hell. If you had a child and that child grew into an adult and start molesting young children, would your love towards that child remain unconditional to the point that you would put your child above everyone else? Or would your love compel you to do something about it?

#17

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08.03.2021 07:34AM

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@n8nrgmi

it might be safe to assume me and Trade only disagree about who is saved, and who God shows unconditional love to. we probably agree that full love is communion, and it's not possible to commune with evil. it's possible to love the sinner and hate the sin, even if you dont commune with them.

Cool post. not sure what it means - but cool post.

i dont think the bible even says all unbelievers are damned though. it only says rejecting jesus means damnation, and to me that means a full sense enough to reject the truth. emphasis 'rejecting' jesus. not the folks on an island. and to my understanding, not the people who dont know any better. a sin is willful engagment of wrongdoing, period. even that popular John verse that says God loves the world, says the reason some folks are condemned is because they reject the light. they reject the truth. even if i'm wrong and everyone who rejects jesus is damned, at the very least they have to know of him and reject him. that's very explicit in all the specific verses of who gets damned.

Wow! Which unbelievers would want to go to be with God? that is a very good question.

n8nrgmi, What do you think it means - to reject Jesus?

#18

Fruit_Inspector

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Fruit_Inspector

08.03.2021 03:18PM

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@TheMorningsStar

I have to agree that this is a straw man argument based on the title of the thread. Your definition of an "All-Loving god" refers to the false god of Liberalism, whereas "The Biblical Yahweh" refers to the God of Christianity.

Liberals pick and choose what they like using from the Bible using various standards. But if one rejects what the totality of what the Bible teaches about God, they do not believe in the biblical God.

So if the definitions in the title are categorically different, it should have read:

"The Biblical Yahweh is not [the god of Liberalism]"

#19

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08.03.2021 04:26PM

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@TheMorningsStar

The Biblical Yahweh is not an All-Loving god

Correct . He is a self confesses" jealous god of war" and destruction that will kill anyone that doesn't do as they are told with him at the drop of an hat. He will even torture and kill those that DO follow all of his commandments too.

#20

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https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6316-the-meaning-of-death?page=3&post_number=67

08.03.2021 06:28PM

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@Tradesecret

TRADESECRET, whose gender went from a woman to a man, and now unknown, the Debate Runaway on Jesus' true MO, Bible denier of Jesus being the Trinity God in the OT, the runaway to what division of Christianity he/she/unknown follows, the pseudo-christian that has committed the Unpardonable Sin, the number 1 Bible ignorant fool regarding Noah's ark, the pseudo-christian that says kids that curse their parents should be killed, states there is FICTION within the scriptures, and is guilty of Revelation 22:18-19 and 2 Timothy 4:3, an admitted sexual deviant, and had ungodly Gender Reassignment Surgery, Satanic Bible Rewriter, an embarrassed LIAR of their true gender, and goes against Jesus in not helping the poor, has turned into a HYPOCRITE, and a LIAR,

YOUR BENDING OVER BACKWARDS FOR OUR SERIAL KILLER YAHWEH/JESUS TO MORNING STAR IN POST #9 " ... if you don't know God, you don't know love. Interestingly, this verse indicates that you a pagan do not understand what love is - so from a Christian point of view - the very fact that you are trying to suggest God is not all loving is pretty ironic. "

Tradesecret, what is the latest pseudo-christian apologetics for not understanding that Yahweh/Jesus is "all loving" towards His creation, even when He has to brutally KILL innocent zygotes, fetus', babies, and children?

1. Is it "all loving" towards Yahweh/Jesus' creation when He killed His entire creation in the Great Flood because they were evil, which He knew He was going to do beforehand since He was omniscient (1 John 3:20). Was it loving for Yahweh/Jesus as He watched (Hebrews 4:13) innocent drowning babies cry out for their mothers in horror before they took their last gasp of air and went under the ocean waters dying a terrible suffocating death ? Notwithstanding, innocent zygotes and fetus' being killed by Yahweh/Jesus within their mothers wombs!

2. Is this "all loving" that Yahweh/Jesus had shown in enacting ABORTIONS towards the woman of Ephraim, and murdering their innocent babies if they were born nonetheless? (Hosea 9: 11-16)

3. Obviously you would have to agree that Yahweh/Jesus showed His "all loving" nature when He stated: "Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished" (Isaiah 13:16)

4. Obviously you have to agree when our "all loving" Yahweh/Jesus forced His creation to eat their children: "And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them."( Jeremiah 19:9)

TRADESECRET: Awaiting a cogent response this time, where you are to at least "try" and remain intelligent looking in the aftermath when doing so in the 21st century. Can you do it, or will you RUNAWAY again in front of the membership in adding even more runaways from me to your ever growing embarrassing lists as shown below?

https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6316-the-meaning-of-death?page=3&post_number=68

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#21

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08.07.2021 03:58PM

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@Stephen

@Tradesecret

@Bones

HAS ANY MEMBER SEEN THE BIBLE RUNAWAY TRADESECRET OF LATE, BECAUSE AT THIS TIME HE IS STILL RUNNING AWAY FROM MY POST # 10 WITHIN THIS THREAD ABOVE, ANYONE? https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6520-the-biblical-yahweh-is-not-an-all-loving-god?page=1&post_number=20

The Satanic irony is the fact that TRADESECRET spreads the word of Jesus Christ at Universities, and actually gets paid for it as he says! WTF! Stop laughing! As I have stated ad infinitum, TRADESECRET is shown to be the Biblical fool within this forum! Therefore, University students should demand their money back post haste because unbeknownst to them, Tradesecret spreads his Bible stupidity into the University environment in misleading their flock like he does at this forum as well!!!

#22

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,311

08.07.2021 04:30PM

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@BrotherDThomas

Tradesecret spreads his Bible stupidity into the University environment in misleading their flock like he does at this forum as well!!!

Is there a punishment for the sin of "misleading" Jesus' flock,? Brother

#23

Debates: 2

Posts: 3,341

08.08.2021 03:46AM

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@Stephen

The Biblical Yahweh is not an All-Loving god

Correct . He is a self confesses" jealous god of war" and destruction that will kill anyone that doesn't do as they are told with him at the drop of an hat. He will even torture and kill those that DO follow all of his commandments too.

Hmmm. As always you pick and choose what you want from the Bible.

You choose for instance:

God is a jealous God. This is true.

God is a God of War. This is also true.

God does and will destroy his enemies. Again this is true.

Yet then you say -

"at the drop of a hat". I disagree. In fact Stephen, it would be nice to see you prove that.

The Bible however indicates that God is slow to anger and to wrath. Quick to mercy and grace. Exodus 20 :4-5 I am a jealous God punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation. but showing mercy to a 1000 generations of those who love me and obey my commands. "

Why don't you bring that into your song selection? God punishes to 3 or 4 generation but gives mercy to 1000s of generations. Can you even understand the comparison here? I'm pretty sure the irony goes well over your head.

Where does it say God will torture and kill those who do obey every one of his commandments?

#24

Debates: 2

Posts: 3,341

08.08.2021 03:47AM

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@BrotherDThomas

Pray tell Brother FAKE Thomas.

What part of your fake persona gives you any sort of credulity over me?

You don't know anything about me - except what I have chosen to reveal to you. And even then - you know nothing.

#25

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,311

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job%201&version=NIV

08.08.2021 05:38AM

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@Tradesecret

The Biblical Yahweh is not an All-Loving god

Correct . He is a self confesses" jealous god of war" and destruction that will kill anyone that doesn't do as they are told with him at the drop of an hat. He will even torture and kill those that DO follow all of his commandments too.

Hmmm. As always you pick and choose what you want from the Bible.

You choose for instance:

God is a jealous God. This is true.
God is a God of War. This is also true.

..................................................................................................

God does and will destroy his enemies. Again this is true.

You were doing well until you go to this point , no more the Reverend ethang "Tradey" Tradesecret. And you are going over old shite that I have argued with both you and your other personas before. And in those instances you denied, backpedaled and then disappeared. But I'll play, just to see if you give the same lame explanations and excuses now as you did.

Yet then you say - "at the drop of a hat". I disagree. In fact Stephen, it would be nice to see you prove that.

Disagree all you wish.

But the story of Job alone proves the point. And how do you want me to prove it? By "Picking & choosing" those verses that contradict you? Or have you already forgotten this accusation?

Tradesecrete wrote: "As always you pick and choose what you want from the Bible". WTF!

Then there is the genocide of the whole planet saving only a few people. Then there are the cities he completely wiped out along with Sodom and Gomorrah . This is before we start on ooooooooooo lets see ; the genocide ordered in 1 Samuel 15:3;

"Now go and smite Amalek and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."

And;

Numbers 31

Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Notice above there he includes female children among the spoils of his war for his chosen people to take as slaves to rape /ravish.

Psalm 137: 9 Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!

Isaiah 13:16 Their infants will be dashed in pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished.

Ezekiel 9:6 Kill old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women, but touch no one on whom is the mark. And begin at my sanctuary.” So they began with the elders who were before the house.

Then there is the innocent first born of Egypt. And on and on and on he goes, killing anyone that doesn't agree with him.

YOU have to justify all these wanton murders Reverend, NOT ME! AND THE POINT IS that god in those cases will and does kill anyone that simply isn't one of his own FACT! And in other cases he does kill his own.. life is cheap to your god . Just like the god of Islam. At least Islam gives you the choice to convert .

And "at the drop of an hat" is the only way to describe a vile god that will torture and kill for nothing less than a wager with his arch enemy Satan.

See the Story of Job below.

The Bible however indicates that God is slow to anger and to wrath. Quick to mercy and grace.

Now who is "choosing", Reverend "tradey" Tradescret"?

Exodus 20 :4-5 I am a jealous God punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation. but showing mercy to a 1000 generations of those who love me and obey my commands. "

Punishing for the sin of their fathers, not sins of their own.. You really need to read the shite you have been teaching your students and charging their Universities for before claiming what it is that you believe to be true or untrue.

Where does it say God will torture and kill those who do obey every one of his commandments?

So now you are actually AGAIN asking me to choose verses that contradict your own beliefs and claims? WTF!! SEE ABOVE

And it is - does - torture and kill . We have been here before but again, see the sad story of Job as a good example. Read it, it only takes a few minutes.

Job 1

1 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil. 2 He had seven sons and three daughters, 3 and he owned seven thousand sheep, three thousand camels, five hundred yoke of oxen and five hundred donkeys, and had a large number of servants. He was the greatest man among all the people of the East. [............................................]

18 While he was still speaking, yet another messenger came and said, “Your sons and daughters were feasting and drinking wine at the oldest brother’s house, 19 when suddenly a mighty wind swept in from the desert and struck the four corners of the house. It collapsed on them and they are dead, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

And here endeth the lesson, ethang "tradey" Tradesecrete.

#26

Debates: 2

Posts: 2,140

https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6520/post-links/280461

08.08.2021 08:47PM

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@Tradesecret

YOUR FRIVOLOUS QUOTE AGAIN WHERE YOU STEP IN THE PROVERBIAL POO! : "You don't know anything about me - except what I have chosen to reveal to you. And even then - you know nothing."

The ONLY thing that we factually need to know about you, is that you are a RUNAWAY from biblical axioms, bar none! The other thing that we will know about you is the FACT that since you ran away from my godly posts #20, and #21 above, you are two runaway posts away from being the number one Bible stupid, ignorant and runaway from the Bible fool AGAIN upon this forum, congratulations Tradesecret!!!!

Now, don't be SCARED all the time in being one of the most dumbfounded pseudo-christians that this forum has ever seen, therefore address the following post #10 shown below and quit running away from it, ready? BEGIN:

TRADESECRET, THE MEMBERSHIP IS WATCHING YOUR DECISION, WILL YOU MAKE SATAN PROUD AND RUN AGAIN, OR JESUS SMILE BECAUSE YOU ARE AT LEAST "TRYNG" TO ADDRESS THE POST ABOVE?!!!

#27

Debates: 2

Posts: 2,140

08.08.2021 09:48PM

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@Stephen

@Tradesecret

@Bones

Stephen,

YOUR REVEALING QUOTE REGARDING THE SOON TO BE THE #1 RUNAWAY FROM JESUS' INSPIRED WORDS IN THIS FORUM: "Is there a punishment for the sin of "misleading" Jesus' flock,? Brother

Firstly, Jesus said this pertaining to Tradesecret's presence upon this forum because 'we've proven him as being an outright FALSE PROPHET: "And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray." (Matthew 24:11)

In turn, watching Tradesecret's pseudo-christian ungodly acts within this forum, that are shown in bold type in the verse below, therefore this verse alone assures that he will be taking the 1 way E-ticket ride to the sulfur lakes of Hell upon his demise! Praise Jesus' revenge upon the sinners like Tradesecret!

Jesus said: "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:8)

1. COWARDLY: This is when Tradesecret runs away from biblical axioms ad infinitum, like with this thread as shown!

2. DESESTABLE: This is when Tradesecret admits that he is a SEXUAL DEVIANT!

3. THE SEXUALLY IMMORAL: Again, this is when Tradesecret admits he is a SEXUAL DEVIANT!

4. AND ALL LIARS: This is when Tradesecret blatantly LIES in trying in vain to get out of the "plethora" of ungodly predicaments he has found himself within!

JESUS DESPISES FALSE PROPHETS LIKE TRADESECRET: "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction." (2 Peter 2:1)

#28

Debates: 2

Posts: 3,341

08.09.2021 01:19AM

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@Stephen

Yet then you say - "at the drop of a hat". I disagree. In fact Stephen, it would be nice to see you prove that.

Disagree all you wish.
But the story of Job alone proves the point. And how do you want me to prove it? By "Picking & choosing" those verses that contradict you? Or have you already forgotten this accusation?

I disagree and Job DOES NOT support your false assertion. Please provide chapter and verse for the punishment in this story, firstly that ACTUALLY happened, and secondly, that happened at a drop of a hat. (I am using that phrase to mean "without thinking or immediate - perhaps you understand it differently, perhaps with indifference - whatever? How about you possible explain what you think it means?)

When you use the expression ‘At the Drop of a Hat’ you mean that something is
happening instantly, without any delay. At the Drop of a Hat | Phrase Definition, Origin & Examples (gingersoftware.com)

Tradesecrete wrote: "As always you pick and choose what you want from the Bible". WTF!

Then there is the genocide of the whole planet saving only a few people. Then there are the cities he completely wiped out along with Sodom and Gomorrah . This is before we start on ooooooooooo lets see ; the genocide ordered in 1 Samuel 15:3;

"Now go and smite Amalek and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."

Yes, I repeat and will now add to: Stephen picks and chooses what he wants from the Bible to make his prejudiced points.

But let's think about my point first. Why is it that Stephen just IGNORES God having mercy on those who obey him? Could it be that Stephen would rather just pretend it cannot be so. It certainly does not help Stephen's narrative. AND PLEASE ALSO NOTICE, Stephen NEVER attempts to explain what these verses that reveal God's mercy are about. No, he just moved on - sleight of hand - to what Stephen sees as God being evil. This is picking and choosing and IGNORING more than half of the narrative.

But now let us look at this passage from 1 Samuel 15:3. Is this punishment? Yes it is. The Amalekites are being punished for what they did to Israel. v. 2 tells us this. PLEASE NOTICE, I am not ignoring this passage. I accept what it says - in that it is God ordering Saul to punish the Amalekites and to effectively wipe it off the face the earth. And just to be clear, this means every part of it, men, women, children, infants, cattle, sheep, camels, donkeys. Saul is to obliterate them and perhaps every trace of them. There was not to be anything left - that the Israelites could plunder and take home. Nothing at all. No treasures, no slaves, no livestock, no idols. NOTHING!.

Now I could I suppose ask a question about the women and the children and the infants. Aren't they innocent? Isn't that barbaric? And perhaps through the eyes of the 21st century world which does not believe in God or genocide or the death penalty there might be some merit in asking those questions. Yet there are so many prejudices within that position. And the thing is - that is not even the question here.

Punishment absolutely for abominable crimes and offences. Yet was it at the drop of a hat? Therein lies the rub. I say no. Stephen says yes. But he does not prove it. No Stephen picks a verse that talks about God punishing someone - and then hopes everyone is so mortified and aghast by it that they don't ask the question about whether it was deserved and secondly was it at the drop of a hat? Stephen does not want us to think. He wants us to stop thinking and just agree with his crazy ideas.

How long ago prior to this command by God to Saul did the Amalekites commit their gross and evil offences against Israel? How many generations? How many years? Does Stephen discuss this? No, Stephen just says it happened at a "drop of a hat". As though it happened without warning. Without thinking - with indifference. Now we could talk about justice being blind - but we won't because Stephen does not understand the meaning of blind justice. Stephen needs to tell us what he means by a drop of the hat. If it means immediate? Then is clearly wrong. The Amalekites had committed their offence well before now. If it means indifference? Does Stephen suggest that justice should not be blind? If he says it means without thinking - again obviously not true.

So Stephen has not proved his point. Hmmm.

And;

Numbers 31
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Again - we are seeing judgment by God. Absolutely!!! According to v. 1 Take vengeance on the Midianites. God is judging them for what they did to Israel. How long ago did Midian do this? Does Stephen think they should go unpunished? What sort of punishment should God have punished them with? But was it done at the drop of a hat? No it was not. Stephen only selects the fact that God ordered them to be punished. Stephen does not say how long after it occurred.

Notice above there he includes female children among the spoils of his war for his chosen people to take as slaves to rape /ravish.

Do you notice what Stephen is doing here? Firstly, get your bibles out and look through the passage. Please look real hard and see if you can see anywhere in that chapter where God says keep the young girls so you can rape them? Look again. Do you see it this time? No. Why not? Because it is not there. God never gives or commands anyone to rape someone else. NEVER! Stephen is not highlighting a verse - he is interpreting it according to how his prejudice is working. Do you see that? So what does it say?

Well v. 18 says - save for yourselves every young girl. Look back at v. 15 for a start. Moses is angry with his men for saving all the females. Yet the older females were implicit within harming the Israelites.

But notice the word save. I interpret this - (yes according to my prejudices) as mercy. He could have just wiped them out. And I think justly so. Yet God for his own good reasons - decided to "save them". Now if God has chosen to let them live but not take them with the Israelites, what would happen to them? Remember all of their family were now justly put to death. If they were left to their own devices - they would be ravaged by the other local tribes in the area. They would have no means of supporting themselves. They would turn to harlotry. Or becomes slaves to some of the other tribes who did not have the same laws in place as Israel.

So here I would say we have MERCY demonstrated profoundly. Would they become slaves? Very likely. After all, who would want people running around free who probably had murder towards you in their heart - after all you had just killed their family. They would want to return justice. Yet as slaves in the Israel society they had privileges. They would get food and clothes and lodging. They would also be able to buy their freedom eventually. Soldiers were forbidden to rape their slaves. they were forbidden to commit adultery. they had responsibilities for their slaves. Even slaves who hated their guts. Yet the alternative for these slaves would have been much worse.

So rather than injecting into the passage which is not there - which Stephen has done. There is no mention of rape. There is the word "save" used - implying mercy. Stephen turns mercy into rape. This is nothing short of prejudice and shoddy interpretational skills.

Psalm 137: 9 Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!

Isaiah 13:16 Their infants will be dashed in pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished.

Ezekiel 9:6 Kill old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women, but touch no one on whom is the mark. And begin at my sanctuary.” So they began with the elders who were before the house.

Punishment - judgment YES and YES and YES. but at the drop of a hat? Where is the evidence of that? Judgment and punishment does not mean at the drop of a hat.

Then there is the innocent first born of Egypt. And on and on and on he goes, killing anyone that doesn't agree with him.

YOU have to justify all these wanton murders Reverend, NOT ME! AND THE POINT IS that god in those cases will and does kill anyone that simply isn't one of his own FACT! And in other cases he does kill his own.. life is cheap to your god . Just like the god of Islam. At least Islam gives you the choice to convert .

Actually, I don't have to justify anything. the facts speak for themselves. I just don't have the same prejudices that you have that require an explanation to the same old story. When people commit crimes - they are judged. This was the law then - and it is still the law today.

And "at the drop of an hat" is the only way to describe a vile god that will torture and kill for nothing less than a wager with his arch enemy Satan.
See the Story of Job below.

See above. There is no judgment or punishment in the story of Job. Therefore it could not be a drop of the hat. Ipso facto.

Exodus 20 :4-5 I am a jealous God punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation. but showing mercy to a 1000 generations of those who love me and obey my commands. "
Punishing for the sin of their fathers, not sins of their own.. You really need to read the shite you have been teaching your students and charging their Universities for before claiming what it is that you believe to be true or untrue.

Please read Stephen's words very carefully. Notice - the sleight of hand. The response I made was not in relation to the sins of who - but in relation to 3 or 4 generations v 1000s of generations. I have already agreed that God punishes and judges people. Now Stephen has to explain why he sees judgment but never the mercy. That is because he cannot explain it.

Where does it say God will torture and kill those who do obey every one of his commandments?
So now you are actually AGAIN asking me to choose verses that contradict your own beliefs and claims? WTF!! SEE ABOVE

And it is - does - torture and kill . We have been here before but again, see the sad story of Job as a good example. Read it, it only takes a few minutes.

So you don't have an answer.

Please show us where God punished Job.

Job is not a picture or story of judgment or punishment. It is a picture of suffering. But there is NEVER any indication that it is about judgment or punishment.

His children were not judged or punished. There is no indication God was unhappy with them or that they did anything wrong. As you point out - they were innocent. So God has not punished them. He has not judged them. This story obviously has a much deeper point than you can understand.

#29

Debates: 2

Posts: 3,341

08.09.2021 01:20AM

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@BrotherDThomas

"Is there a punishment for the sin of "misleading" Jesus' flock,?

There is and it will come to those who do it, make no mistake.

#30

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,311