Abortion and covid

Author: TheUnderdog

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TheMorningsStar
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@3RU7AL
(IFF) the unborn have the rights of CITIZENS (THEN) every miscarriage and stillbirth must be investigated as MANSLAUGHTER
Disagree. When a baby dies of SIDS there is rarely that much of an investigation into manslaughter. Miscarriages and stillbirths should be treated the same. If there is good reason to suspect that the guardian/parent did something that is when you might investigate, but otherwise there is little reason to.
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@Fruit_Inspector
This is a statement of legal fact.
Slavery was also legal at the time. That was the point. Just because something is legal doesn't make it moral. Just because people used to be able to own slaves doesn't make it moral. Just because women can legally murder their children doesn't make it moral.
Ok, so, why not just say you're not interested in legal arguments ?

What specific moral principles are you basing your assessment on ?
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@TheMorningsStar
(IFF) the unborn have the rights of CITIZENS (THEN) every miscarriage and stillbirth must be investigated as MANSLAUGHTER
Disagree. When a baby dies of SIDS there is rarely that much of an investigation into manslaughter. Miscarriages and stillbirths should be treated the same. If there is good reason to suspect that the guardian/parent did something that is when you might investigate, but otherwise there is little reason to.
Without violating medical privacy, how can anyone determine the difference between a miscarriage and an abortion ?
TheMorningsStar
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@3RU7AL
(IFF) the unborn have the rights of CITIZENS (THEN) every miscarriage and stillbirth must be investigated as MANSLAUGHTER
Disagree. When a baby dies of SIDS there is rarely that much of an investigation into manslaughter. Miscarriages and stillbirths should be treated the same. If there is good reason to suspect that the guardian/parent did something that is when you might investigate, but otherwise there is little reason to.
Without violating medical privacy, how can anyone determine the difference between a miscarriage and an abortion ?
You are aware that medical privacy is 'violated' all the time when it comes to legal issues, right? If child abuse is suspected, as one example, doctors will ignore medical privacy and report it to the police There are many instances of this, how would it be any different here? If a doctor suspects that it was an abortion then it can be reported and then an investigation happens.
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@Fruit_Inspector
For example, when an american border guard shot a mexican citizen to death across the border, a case that was reviewed by THE SUPREME COURT no less, it was ruled "not a crime" because nobody in the united states has legal standing to file a case against the border guard.
I don't know the specifics of the case. But if the killing of that Mexican citizen was unjustified, was it immoral to kill that citizen, even if the border guard was not found guilty in court?
That's the gap between "legal" and "moral".

At the very least you would imagine the individual would be charged with something like "reckless endangerment" or something.

But apparently it's 100% "not a crime" to shoot and kill people across a national border.

Most people don't truly understand that "law" is based on jurisdiction.

Who has jurisdiction over a woman's own uterus ?
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@3RU7AL
That's the gap between "legal" and "moral".
Similar to justifying abortion on the basis that it violates medical privacy. Even if the law allows one to murder people across the border, it is morally wrong. Even if the law allows a woman to murder her children just because of their location within the uterus, it is morally wrong.


Who has jurisdiction over a woman's own uterus ?
That's an absurd question. If a woman was somehow able to put a newborn back into her uterus, would she regain the moral justification to kill it?
3RU7AL
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@TheMorningsStar
Without violating medical privacy, how can anyone determine the difference between a miscarriage and an abortion ?
You are aware that medical privacy is 'violated' all the time when it comes to legal issues, right? If child abuse is suspected, as one example, doctors will ignore medical privacy and report it to the police There are many instances of this, how would it be any different here? If a doctor suspects that it was an abortion then it can be reported and then an investigation happens.
I'm not sure an intentional miscarriage caused by alcohol and tobacco is going to be distinguishable from any other unintentional type of miscarriage.

You’re called to the scene of a medical emergency at a patient’s residence. As you enter the home, you find a patient with an altered level of consciousness on the couch in the living room.  On the table next to the couch you find what appears to be illegal drugs and drug paraphernalia. What are your obligations under the law? Must you report the suspected illegal drug activity to the police? Can you report it?

First, be sure to check applicable laws in your state. Some states impose reporting obligations for certain types of injuries or conditions on EMS providers. For instance, some state laws require the reporting of any injuries incurred in the commission of a crime, and some of these state laws could be construed broadly enough to require the reporting of medical emergencies likely caused by illegal drugs. In most states, however, mandatory reporting laws covering EMS providers are narrower and typically require reporting of specific conditions, such as gunshot wounds, burns or child abuse. Since they vary so much, be sure to consult your state law and your agency’s legal counsel with regard to the types of reportable conditions in your state.  Any mandatory report under state law is also permitted under HIPAA. [**]
3RU7AL
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@Fruit_Inspector
That's the gap between "legal" and "moral".
Similar to justifying abortion on the basis that it violates medical privacy. Even if the law allows one to murder people across the border, it is morally wrong. Even if the law allows a woman to murder her children just because of their location within the uterus, it is morally wrong.
We appear to be in agreement on this particular point.

How do you propose we "bridge the gap" ?
3RU7AL
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@Fruit_Inspector
Who has jurisdiction over a woman's own uterus ?
That's an absurd question.
It's only "absurd" that you can't answer it.
TheMorningsStar
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@3RU7AL
I'm not sure an intentional miscarriage caused by alcohol and tobacco is going to be distinguishable from any other unintentional type of miscarriage.
I'm sure that some intentional miscarriages would appear to be intentional by a doctor, but I agree that there would be those that do not.
If we are talking about drug usage leading to a miscarriage then I say that you only investigate that angle if a credible witness reports it, maybe have other factors involved for determining it.

Essentially, unintentional miscarriages would be treated similarly to SIDS and would be the default assumption, thus most miscarriages would never lead to an investigation.

Yes, there will always be those that intentionally miscarried or were reckless and caused the death of of the unborn child that never get caught, but that is true of all crime everywhere. That doesn't mean you do nothing.
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@TheMorningsStar
Yes, there will always be those that intentionally miscarried or were reckless and caused the death of of the unborn child that never get caught, but that is true of all crime everywhere. That doesn't mean you do nothing.
So, when you find a young woman half bleeding to death because she botched a coat-hanger abortion on herself, you send her away for life-in-prison.

Or if she travels to another country and magically returns home without a foetus, you send her away for life-in-prison.

Elsewise, the policy is "don't ask - don't tell".
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@3RU7AL
We appear to be in agreement on this particular point.

How do you propose we "bridge the gap" ?
I'm assuming you are not agreeing that abortion is legal but immoral. Rather, you seem to be agreeing that there is a gap between legality and morality. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.

There is not a way to perfect way to bridge this gap. That's why politics is such a contentious issue. This is all the more difficult when everyone has a fundamentally different ethical system from one another. We no longer operate, generally speaking, from the Judeo-Christian ethic we once did. The abortion debate is a prime example of colliding worldviews.


It's only "absurd" that you can't answer it.
I did answer it, and I gave reason for why I believe it is absurd. You failed to address my answer. If a woman has total jurisdiction over her uterus and was somehow able to put a newborn back into that uterus, would she regain the justification to kill that newborn? If not, then the woman does not have full jurisdiction over her uterus.
TheMorningsStar
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@3RU7AL
So, when you find a young woman half bleeding to death because she botched a coat-hanger abortion on herself, you send her away for life-in-prison.
Don't know what the punishment would be, but she just ended a life.

Or if she travels to another country and magically returns home without a foetus, you send her away for life-in-prison
Where did you pull this out from? The US does not prosecute people for doing things legally in other countries.
3RU7AL
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@TheMorningsStar
Where did you pull this out from? The US does not prosecute people for doing things legally in other countries.
Ireland did.
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@TheMorningsStar
So, when you find a young woman half bleeding to death because she botched a coat-hanger abortion on herself, you send her away for life-in-prison.
Don't know what the punishment would be, but she just ended a life.
Why not just give everyone free birth control ?

Why not just give everyone free child care ?
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@Fruit_Inspector
There is not a way to perfect way to bridge this gap.
I admire your tenacity and candor.

Who are you suggesting we punish and how much ?

Why not make abortion obsolete by providing free child care and free birth control ?

Forcing an unwed teen to give birth without offering any sort of safety-net is only going to "punish" the child (that you seem to care so much about).
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@TheUnderdog
Not all tragedies can be legislated out of existence.
True, but abortions and covid deaths can be, so should we have vaccine mandates and abortion bans?  
Show me the law that will stop abortion and covid.

Also, making all speed limits a maximum of 55 will save more lives than any mask lockdown.
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@Greyparrot
The vast majority are not anti-vax. They are anti MANDATORY vax.
Well stated.
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@3RU7AL
Who are you suggesting we punish and how much ?
The mother and abortionist should be charged with murder.

Why not make abortion obsolete by providing free child care and free birth control ?
The government is not obligated to convince people to obey the law at the taxpayers' expense.


Forcing an unwed teen to give birth without offering any sort of safety-net is only going to "punish" the child (that you seem to care so much about).
Personally, I see the death penalty as a much more severe punishment for the child than growing up poor.
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@Fruit_Inspector
The government is not obligated to convince people to obey the law at the taxpayers' expense.
So you'd prefer to pay $40,000.00 per year per prisoner ?
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@Fruit_Inspector
Forcing an unwed teen to give birth without offering any sort of safety-net is only going to "punish" the child (that you seem to care so much about).
Personally, I see the death penalty as a much more severe punishment for the child than growing up poor.
I see.

FUCK YOU KID, YOU SHOULD BE GRATEFUL YOU WERE EVEN BORN.
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@Fruit_Inspector
Should U.S soldiers be charged with murder too.

Seeing as you are advocating perfect morality.

Or are you selectively moral just like all the other hypocrites?
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@3RU7AL
So you'd prefer to pay $40,000.00 per year per prisoner ?
No. Our current prison system is unbiblical, but that is a whole different conversation.

But I find your attitude toward children that might grow up in adversity concerning. Especially given your concern for homeless people. I imagine you wouldn't say to one of them, "It sucks that you're homeless. Too bad your parents didn't abort you." Should kids in third world countries be aborted?
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@Fruit_Inspector
So you'd prefer to pay $40,000.00 per year per prisoner ?
No. Our current prison system is unbiblical, but that is a whole different conversation.

But I find your attitude toward children that might grow up in adversity concerning. Especially given your concern for homeless people. I imagine you wouldn't say to one of them, "It sucks that you're homeless. Too bad your parents didn't abort you." Should kids in third world countries be aborted?
Voluntary suicide should be an option.
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@zedvictor4
Should U.S soldiers be charged with murder too.

Seeing as you are advocating perfect morality.

Or are you selectively moral just like all the other hypocrites?
Since when have I claimed to be a pacifist? If someone is shooting up a Walmart and I am armed, would it be immoral for me to shoot the assailant to stop the killing? Or should I just stay out of it because it would be immoral to intervene?
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@3RU7AL
Forcing an unwed teen to give birth without offering any sort of safety-net is only going to "punish" the child (that you seem to care so much about).
Last comment I will make here, if you wish to continue the discussion could we please move to the dedicated thread? Just quote my comment here over there if you wish to continue the discussion.

For me, I am of two minds on this. Personally, I have no issue with providing tax dollars towards foster home programs and adoption agencies as well as increasing education of sex ed. We currently have tax dollars that go to Planned Parenthood that then get used for abortions, why not shift where those tax dollars are going if we make abortion illegal?

But I also think that whether or not such funding goes through that it does not impact whether or not abortion should be legal. Sure, making it illegal without this shift in where tax dollars goes creates a new problem, but to them appeal to the consequence to say no to an abortion ban is fallacious reasoning.
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@TheUnderdog
If 600,000 covid deaths are a tragedy that must be prevented like the 800,000 abortion deaths, why did conservatives tend to be anti mask (to reduce covid deaths) and to this day tend to be anti vaccine(which also reduces covid deaths).
Masks don't prevent death. Vaccines have neither reduced nor prevented death. So what is your point?

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@3RU7AL
Would you consider it "immoral" to "deport" the gnome ?

A gnome is an inanimate object. If an inanimate object is causing harm, then I don't care if you throw it out.

Since I only care about people, then assuming it could die, I wouldn't care because a gnome is non-human.
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@Fruit_Inspector
The idea that not killing a baby should be considered "mandatory childbirth" is crazy to me. How is not being able to murder your child somehow a violation of freedom?
Full disclosure: I endorse the pro-choice position. So the argument I'm going to submit will reflect said position. Though it is my intention to provide a more consistent argument that's severely lacking from others who share this position--usually the highly emotional "warriors" present and/or endorsed by the mainstream media.

I'm not going to argue that an embryo/zygote/fetus is not a human being given that this is categorically incorrect. Human Development as it is delineated includes for embryo/zygote/fetus, so excluding them is nothing short of arbitrary. Or at the very least, their inclusions would be no less arbitrary than our own--that is, our being "adult" humans. You characterized an abortion as "killing a baby." That would suggest that the mother and/or physician is directly responsible for the termination of the fetus's life, correct? But is this always the case? I'm not oblivious to methods of abortion which destroys and maims the zygote/embryo/fetus before expulsion, and I would perhaps join you in condemning this act. However, as it concerns the methods which expel the zygote/embryo/fetus in tact, can the same characterization be made--i.e. "killing babies"? In the latter's case, does the zygote's/embryo's/fetus's subsequent death result as a consequence of the mother's and physician's direct actions, or is it the zygote's/embryo's/fetus's physiological underdevelopment which renders it incapable of surviving outside of its mother's womb that causes its death?

Typically, I would presume a response in the vein that the mother bears a responsibility to carry the zygote/embryo/fetus to term. We first have to understand the nature of this responsibility and how it's established. And we do this by asking the obvious question: why does a mother bear a responsibility to carry her zygote/embryo/fetus to term? The two most prominent contentions I've had the experience to observe are as follows: (1) sex creates a contract which binds a mother to carry her fetus to term--a prospect she could have avoided had she decided not to risk pregnancy by having sex at all, and (2) the zygote/embryo/fetus needs its mother's womb to develop before being birthed, and as its parent, it's the mother's duty to provide said womb to the best of her capacity to ensure her child's healthy growth. Now the first is absolute nonsense given that the whole notion of a "contract" is just emotional projection given that neither mother nor zygote/embryo/fetus has entered a contract. Even if the contract is said to be between mother and society at large through referendum, the mother has signed nothing--literally and figuratively. The second one is a bit more nuanced. It however has a flaw, i.e. "necessity" being the establishment to a claim. The fetus needs the womb; therefore, it gets the womb, its mother's preferences notwithstanding? How is the zygote/embryo/fetus owed its mother's womb?

Let me ask you directly in order to avoid strawmanning you: what responsibilities do you believe the mother bears as it concerns her pregnancy? Why is refusing her womb to her zygote/embryo/fetus immoral?
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@3RU7AL
Voluntary suicide should be an option.
For homeless people? Because they're poor?