Another question for Darwinists

Author: janesix ,

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  • janesix
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    "In just a few decades the 5-inch-long (13-centimeter-long) lizards have developed a completely new gut structure, larger heads, and a harder bite, researchers say."


    Isn't evolution supposed to be slow? 
  • Goldtop
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    This is in the wrong forum, should be in Science.

    Evolution works as fast as the organism and it' environment will allow.

    At the very least, this should quiet the deniers of the Cambrian era.
  • janesix
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    --> @Goldtop
    I guess evolution doesn't take millions of years. Luckily that lizard hit on the right mutations quickly to develop that new gut structure. I wonder how many mutations that took? Not much time for trial and error.
  • Goldtop
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    When scientists find out how the lizard evolved those traits so quickly, we'll learn something new about evolution. I think this is good evidence to shut the mouths of those who claim the Cambrian era refutes evolution.
  • drafterman
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    --> @janesix
    Isn't evolution supposed to be slow? 
    No.

    Next question!

  • SkepticalOne
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    --> @janesix
    No.
  • keithprosser
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    --> @SkepticalOne
    Let's be honest - evolution isn't supposed to be that quick!   Apparently a fully formed and functioning 'cecal valve' arose - essentially a whole new complex organ in maybe a dozen generations!  It can't be shrugged off.

    Evolution is slow...  most critters are exactly the same as they were 300 years ago, let alone 30.

    its so quick i'd look long and hard for experimental  flaws - possibly even fraud.


  • SkepticalOne
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    --> @keithprosser
    Supposed to be?  Talk like that and people will believe you are advocating for a designer. 🤣🤣

    I'll keep my eyes peeled for trickery, but until then I'll accept it as is.
  • keithprosser
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    PZ Myers seems to think its legit.

    Perhaps I was being harsh.

    So to j6 I can only say that evolution occurs on all time scales.   Over large time spans it can turn a fish into a fisherman, but over short timescale it can have visible effects too.   Which is no answer at all, of course.

    There aren't many examples of evolution acting fast enough on a non-microbe to be noticeable on human timescales.   The only one I can think of is the school textbook favourite 'Industrial Melanism'.



  • Grugore
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    --> @janesix
    News flash. It's still a freakin lizard. Always has been. Always will be.
  • Grugore
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    This is not evolution. It's called adaptation. The expression of genetic traits that already exist in their DNA. In fact, the lizard species they descended from have the exact same structures in their gut. They are not new. I would bet anything that if you put those lizards on the island they were taken from, they would revert. This is just another example of how desperate and dishonest atheists are.
  • disgusted
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    --> @Grugore
    Show your experiments.
    I counter your claim with a claim that an invisible teapot orbits the moon, using your evidence as well. fuck all.
    BTW what is evolution if not adaptation?
  • Stephen
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    --> @Grugore
    News flash. It's still a freakin lizard.
     That gave rise to birds.
     I will say though. evolution only works up to a certain point when we are talking the development of mankind.
  • janesix
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    --> @Stephen
     I will say though. evolution only works up to a certain point when we are talking the development of mankind.
    what do you mean?

  • janesix
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    --> @drafterman
    Ok, evolution is now fast. Gotcha.
  • drafterman
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    --> @janesix
    You are attempting to shoe-horn evolution into a simplistic model as either universally and absolutely "slow" or universally and absolutely "fast." I do not know why you are insisting on doing this, but if you are at all actually interested in evolution, you shouldn't do that.
  • janesix
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    --> @drafterman
    Sometimes it's fast, sometimes it's slow? 

    How many mutations do you think it took to evolve an entirely new gut structure in that lizard? 

  • drafterman
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    Sometimes it's fast, sometimes it's slow? 
    Yes. Obviously.

    How many mutations do you think it took to evolve an entirely new gut structure in that lizard? 
    You're assuming that this is the result of mutations. If you are truly interested in the science here, then you should probably seek out the actual scientific literature. Popular media, even media dedicated toward scientific endeavors, is notoriously (and sometimes laughably) bad at reporting the technical details. The broad strokes they have to paint scientific discovers to make the information easily consumable often give false impressions.

    To wit:

    "Although the presence of cecal valves and large heads in hatchlings and juveniles suggests a genetic basis for these differences, further studies investigating the potential role of phenotypic plasticity and/or maternal effects in the divergence between populations are needed."

    Translation: We don't know if this is the result of a mutation, the expression of existing, but previously dormant genes.
  • janesix
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    --> @drafterman
    Ok. That is a possibility.
  • Grugore
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    --> @janesix
    It didn't evolve. The genetic blueprint already existed. It was simply made active due to its enviroment. If you took those lizards back to the other island they would start eating bugs again and they would revert and lose the changes. This has nothing to do with evolution. It is the expression of genetic traits that already exist. It has been proven that adaptations are reversible. No new information has ever been been added to any genome of any living creature. It's impossible. Evolution is a joke and you're all a bunch of clueless suckers. Sorry if that offends anyone, but it's the truth.
  • janesix
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    --> @Grugore
    That is a possibility as well. 

    I am definitely a clueless sucker,and I've been called much worse.
  • drafterman
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    --> @janesix
    The fact that you posted this in the religious forum and refer to the outmoded label of "Darwinists" suggests ulterior motives.
  • janesix
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    --> @drafterman
    I think my motives are clear. 
  • drafterman
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    --> @janesix
    You may think so, but they aren't. To me you are coming off as:

    "Hey silly evolutionists, evolution is supposed to be slow, but looks like it's fast. How do you explain that?!"

    With the obvious implication that this is some sort of rebuke or disproof of evolution.
  • janesix
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    --> @drafterman
    You are wrong. I believe in evolution. Orthogenesis. It is my religious belief, thus the religion forum. I believe much of evolution happens in saltation.