Race Realism: Critical understandings

Author: Mesmer

Posts

Total: 320
#301
cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,121
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@RationalMadman
Thanks for your comprehensive answer to my first question!

One of the problems, as I see it, is that (too) many in progressive circles have expanded upon your definition greatly. Such as:

1. People of Color (POC) cannot be racist, as they are not part of the racist power structure
2. Asking “where are you from?” is a “micro aggression” rooted in racism because it is “otherizing” a person with a different appearance from the majority
3. A white person disliking an individual of a different race is assumed to be because of racism (conscious or subconscious) rather than merely the dislike people have for another person all the time
4. “Nonwhite” is a label rooted in racism, as it sees all different races through the (racist) Eurocentric lense
5. Math is racist because… I cannot comprehend why…
5. Punctuality, hard work, etc. are aspects of “whiteness”, and therefor is racist to expect from all people

That’s just from the top of my head right now. Hence, precisely why I pose question 2.
#302
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,763
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@cristo71
Thanks for your comprehensive answer to my first question!
Quite shocking actually.
#303
949havoc
949havoc's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 816
3
2
8
949havoc's avatar
949havoc
3
2
8
-->
@dfss9788
Facts are used to support policies.
Just as you, yourself, later confirmed, just because we say a thing is a fact does not make it so. So, all that followed this claim is virtually nonsense. On occasion, facts support policies, but it isn't a given. And assuming facts support policy when they are not facts can also derail actions that are assumed to be policy, but are not. A double failure.
#304
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,763
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@949havoc
And assuming facts support policy when they are not facts can also derail actions that are assumed to be policy, but are not. A double failure.
Well stated.
#305
949havoc
949havoc's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 816
3
2
8
949havoc's avatar
949havoc
3
2
8
-->
@3RU7AL
Thank you.
#306
dfss9788
dfss9788's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 152
1
2
2
dfss9788's avatar
dfss9788
1
2
2
-->
@949havoc
Your reasoning has consistently been a mere rationalization of whatever it is you happen to be feeling at the time. Most of the people who push these sorts of things seek to foment racial divisions, probably trying to push for racial separatism or something like that. I don't think racial separatism is necessarily a bad thing per se, I mean if that's what people really want and that's what makes them happy, but it'd be pretty expensive. It's a lot cheaper to just get over whatever it is that's bothering them about other groups.
#307
949havoc
949havoc's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 816
3
2
8
949havoc's avatar
949havoc
3
2
8
-->
@dfss9788
You, of course, have the right to your opinion, but I'll tell you for nothing that you read me completely wrong, and always have. I don't think any segregation of races is a prudent ideal  for society and I see no purpose in it whatsoever but to foment ignorance and prejudice. IUt is not a matter, to me, of there being a racial reality; I just don 't care about it because it accomplishes noting fruitful to harp about it. The ideal, to me, would be to celebrate our obvious visual diversity, because that is all it should be: visual.
#308
Ramshutu
Ramshutu's avatar
Debates: 43
Posts: 2,768
6
9
10
Ramshutu's avatar
Ramshutu
6
9
10
-->
@Mesmer
If you don't post your entire argument, then you've failed to prove systemic racism exists in the US.

I will address it if you decide to do that.

It's as simple as that.



False, argument from repetition (64): 

Arguments are made up of a set of points and premises that leads to conclusions. You are going to have to deal with each of these points, whether I present them one at a time or all at once. 

Your objection has nothing to do with substance, burden of proof, or data: you simply do not like the way I am presenting the argument point by point. 

I am unsurprised you are terrified at having a point by point argument; as it leaves little or no cover to be intellectually dishonest: you cannot jumble points together, or obfuscate assumptions; something I clearly showed you are doing when you try and argue the wider point.

If you’re going to lie, distort, misrepresent and otherwise fail to engage a single point I raise - I have no confidence that you’re going to be less dishonest if I give you 100.


Let’s start with point 1 again; let’s even simplify it down to distill the point.

Would you not agree that a racist state, that put in place a series of overtly racist laws for over a hundred years, and is filled with overtly racist people, would be able to systematically disadvantage particular racial groups, both socially, politically and economically, no?

Would you not also agree that inequality could be easily sustained by policies that weren’t explicitly racist, but implicitly racist by enabling the perpetuation of inequality based on socioeconomic factors of a given race?
#309
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 567
Posts: 19,930
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@cristo71
Thanks for your comprehensive answer to my first question!

One of the problems, as I see it, is that (too) many in progressive circles have expanded upon your definition greatly. Such as:

1. People of Color (POC) cannot be racist, as they are not part of the racist power structure
Okay, so the example such as with the 'mockery' element and such is that if you mock a race that has been continually victimised and isolated, it has more harshness than if you aim your mockery at a race that is blatantly dominant. I am not saying I agree, what I am saying is 'racism' in that context is referring to how harsh the impact is.

2. Asking “where are you from?” is a “micro aggression” rooted in racism because it is “otherizing” a person with a different appearance from the majority
It can be. Especially because this question is a terribly worded one that people should stop using altogether (I genuinely mean that). Other than first-generation immigrants, there is a huge issue with the question 'where are you from' as it is not clear if it means to ascertain where you grow up and resided in for your younger life or alternatively means to ascertain where does your ethnic bloodline trace back to.

If people would make clear 'where did you grow up?' or 'what ethnicity are you?' then it would be better. However, I already know you are correct that some will get offended with either of those questions, especially the latter, so it then comes down to who you're asking and why. If that's the first thing you ask someone, it sometimes is peculiar why that's the first thing on your mind when it comes to judging and forming an impression of them within your mind. It's telling at least that you primarily split people up along those lines, it's not racist necessarily but certainly implies prejudice.

3. A white person disliking an individual of a different race is assumed to be because of racism (conscious or subconscious) rather than merely the dislike people have for another person all the time
Depends on the person and other things contextually, this is far too generic and vague for me to talk about either way.
4. “Nonwhite” is a label rooted in racism, as it sees all different races through the (racist) Eurocentric lense
Well, there's definitely no need to use that term, it reminds me of a very outdated British and/or South African term which is 'coloured/colored', there's just no need for that term at all anymore. 
5. Math is racist because… I cannot comprehend why…
I don't recall anyone arguing this ever but please show me.
5. Punctuality, hard work, etc. are aspects of “whiteness”, and therefor is racist to expect from all people
Specifically with punctuality, many non-caucasian cultures (except for east Asians meaning the Chinese and surrounding nations) are known to be tardy and emphasise less on being on time, especially non-professionally. It is actually a very cultural trait of south Asians in particular to be extremely approximate and wide in when they set a family event to happen vs when things really begin (many learn to set parties 2 whole hours ahead of when the real dancing etc begins just because of how late most will turn up). That said, I don't think professionally or even in general that the emphasis on punctuality within many Caucasian cultures is racist at all.

Hard work is confusing to me, definitely can't be in relation to Asian cultures since they heavily emphasise hard work and most other cultures have an ethose of 'work hard, play hard' so I don't know which ethnicity it is that this could be racist towards. In fact, certain 'white cultures' such as the Italians, Portuguese, Greek and Spanish (Latino means south american not European Portuguese and European Spanish, they're considered a type of Caucasian) have a lot of emphasis on leisure, so I guess it depends which you mean. Scandinavians also have 'relaxation and learning to enjoy the moment' as significant parts of their cultures, not only 'hard work'.
That’s just from the top of my head right now. Hence, precisely why I pose question 2.

Topic's author
#310
Mesmer
Mesmer's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 516
3
2
4
Mesmer's avatar
Mesmer
3
2
4
-->
@3RU7AL
In order to discredit them.
In your opinion.
There is only one logical reason to make fun of someone.
I don't agree. Sometimes the person is being a pain and you want to make fun of them. Sometimes you just want people to laugh. Sometimes you're bored and are looking to entertain yourself or others.

Attacking a person's character should never be used in place of attacking the argument (because that's Ad Hominem), but attacking a person's character doesn't mean you're Ad homming or being illogical.

It doesn't come close to systemic racism, either. Even if it did, it's in the past. Even if it was in the present, Ramshutu and I was talking about the US.
I thought you were interested in discussing human behavior in general terms.
I mean I can discuss that, but what you're talking about is a massive tangent from what Ramshutu and I were discussing.

I don't know much about German-Russian historical conflict, so I can't talk much about it. Although, that isn't systemic racism if there were any conflict; probably more indicative of racial hatred.
#311
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 567
Posts: 19,930
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
aim your mockery at a race that is blatantly dominant.
Just to be clear, when I said 'dominant' here it didn't mean actually superior, it is clear what I meant if you read the whole part before it but I was just clarifying before that gets twisted.

I mistyped 'ethos' as 'ethose'.
Topic's author
#312
Mesmer
Mesmer's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 516
3
2
4
Mesmer's avatar
Mesmer
3
2
4
Since the election of Donald Trump, hate crimes have been on the rise. White supremeists have been emboldened. Anti-immigrant rhetoric has intensified. We condemn these awful examples of prejudice and bias and hate, but systemic racism is something different. It’s less about violence or burning crosses than it is about everyday decisions made by people who may not even think of themselves as racist. As sociologist Eduardo Bonilla-Silva has said, "The main problem nowadays is not the folks with the hoods, but the folks dressed in suits."
Systemic racism persists in our schools, offices, court system, police departments, and elsewhere. Why? Think about it: when white people occupy most positions of decision-making power, people of color have a difficult time getting a fair shake, let alone getting ahead.
This is truly a garbage comment and I'm surprised that 3 different idiots liked it.

"Hate crime" is a nonsense buzzword. Crime is what should be opposed. Whether or not something is a "hate crime" is irrelevant and extremely hard to prove -- total waste of time. Of course, you were unable to cite anything to prove this because you're stupid enough to make the argument in the first place.

White supremacists (not "White supremeists" -- can't even spell your shitlib dogwhistle correctly) is a racial slur than has incorrectly been merged with White Nationalist, so people who are actually White Nationalists (i.e. people wanting a White-centered nation, not necessarily the supremacy of White people) have been lumped in with people who are far more extreme (White Supremacists) "White Supremacist" is a racial slur (debateart.com) . Of course, sources like Wikipedia make the distinction for Black, Hispanic and Chinese people, because White supremacist is actually just an anti-white term used to slander White people. Finally, you didn't provide any source to prove that "White supremacists have been emboldened", so there's no reason to believe what you wrote here.

People should be anti-immigration, if they know what's best for their country. I don't mind immigration being strictly about picking the super talented, specialist immigrants who the country doesn't otherwise have, but countries don't need more 81-90 IQ immigrants who are likely going to be a net economic cost (as well as social issue). Immigrants bring diversity and diversity weakens countries in every regard Ethnic Diversity: Strength or Weakness? – The Alternative Hypothesis . Black people in America cost about $1 trillion a year, and Hispanics are about 7/10's as costly. Fiscal Impact by Race in the United States - altCensored . France actually suffers from a similar problem in that Africans are a massive net drain on the French economy, taking what would otherwise be a budget surplus and plunging it into a deficit Was it Worth it? - altCensored . 

"Racist" is a nonsense, malicious term that you should stop using Racism is a nonsense, malicious term v2.0 (debateart.com) .

All those narratives you mentioned ("Systemic racism persists in our schools, offices, court system, police departments") are provably false and have been debunked repeatedly: 'Progressive' (shitlib) false narratives and their debunkings (debateart.com) .

When we apply the following logic: "Think about it: when white people occupy most positions of decision-making power, people of color have a difficult time getting a fair shake, let alone getting ahead." , to other countries, plenty of countries are "racist" (I used Nigeria as one example, but you could apply the same to China, South Korea, Iran etc.) : Nigeria is racist and Black supremacist (debateart.com) . 

Everything in your comment is wrong and unsourced lol.
Topic's author
#313
Mesmer
Mesmer's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 516
3
2
4
Mesmer's avatar
Mesmer
3
2
4
-->
@Ramshutu
You've failed to show that systemic racism exists in the US.
#314
Ramshutu
Ramshutu's avatar
Debates: 43
Posts: 2,768
6
9
10
Ramshutu's avatar
Ramshutu
6
9
10
-->
@Mesmer

You've failed to show that systemic racism exists in the US.

False, argument from repetition (65): 

As I’ve stated: I’ve offered the first post in my argument - you’ve spent 150 posts trying to avoid addressing it. 


If you’re unable to address the first point of my argument without misrepresentation, assertion, and intellectual dishonesty; why should anyone expect you to assess 100?

Topic's author
#315
Mesmer
Mesmer's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 516
3
2
4
Mesmer's avatar
Mesmer
3
2
4
-->
@Ramshutu
You've failed to show that systemic racism exists in the US.
#316
drlebronski
drlebronski's avatar
Debates: 14
Posts: 993
3
5
9
drlebronski's avatar
drlebronski
3
5
9
omfg
Topic's author
#317
Mesmer
Mesmer's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 516
3
2
4
Mesmer's avatar
Mesmer
3
2
4
omfg
Good point.
#318
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 567
Posts: 19,930
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
Have you been black or interacted with black people and heard their side of the story?

This sounds like a bunch of 'I haven't been through it, therefore it doesn't happen'.

Do you think every time a black person doesn't get promoted because of their race it's statistically recorded as a racist lack of promotion? Do you think every time a cop was harsher and court case was harsher on a black person because of their race that it was recorded as such?

What statistics can prove you wrong without you scapegoating competence for each and every instance 'they were incompetent, it was brought onto them by their own mistakes.' this is your reply to everything that proves systemic racism in the US, you don't even begin to mentally process what may be unrecorded and affecting the statistics because you're too busy latching onto any sentence or data finding that you can use to further your preconceived views.
#319
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,763
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Mesmer
Sometimes the person is being a pain and you want to make fun of them.
In order to discredit their words.

Sometimes you just want people to laugh.
In order to boost your social position relative to your interlocutor (in order to discredit their words).

Sometimes you're bored and are looking to entertain yourself or others.
Why else would you be here ?
#320
cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,121
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@RationalMadman
Okay, so the example such as with the 'mockery' element and such is that if you mock a race that has been continually victimised and isolated, it has more harshness than if you aim your mockery at a race that is blatantly dominant. I am not saying I agree, what I am saying is 'racism' in that context is referring to how harsh the impact is.
Oh, I understood your earlier explanation just fine. The point here specifically is the word “cannot [be racist].” Says who?

You dare disagree with your moral betters? Well, you know what you will be accused of if you do that…

It can be. Especially because this question is a terribly worded one that people should stop using altogether (I genuinely mean that). Other than first-generation immigrants, there is a huge issue with the question 'where are you from' as it is not clear if it means to ascertain where you grow up and resided in for your younger life or alternatively means to ascertain where does your ethnic bloodline trace back to.
My spouse has a foreign accent; she gets asked “Where are you from?” all the time. No offense intended; no offense taken. However, I have to resist the urge to command “Please, don’t ‘otherize’ my wife!” Offense comes far too easily these days…

Another funny story:

Back in college freshman (oops! Bad word!) orientation, we were walking through a computer lab, and there was a Sikh wearing his customary turban headgear. Here’s how the dialog went:

“So, where are you from?”
“Fresno.” (Gets some chuckles from our group)
“No, where are you REALLY from?”
“India.”
“Ok, I knew he was from someplace!”

Now, for the plot twist:  the student asking about the origins of the headgear happened to be African American. Doesn’t that conflict with example #1 that POC “cannot” be racist (or racially insensitive/xenophobic/etc)? (Rhetorical question, really)

Depends on the person and other things contextually, this is far too generic and vague for me to talk about either way.
My point is that your reasonable definition gets expanded beyond its original bounds by many progressives. To be honest, I wasn’t looking for your explication of these examples I posit. Rather, I was giving examples of definition “creep”… aka “moving of the goalposts.” THAT is really my point.

I don't recall anyone arguing this ever but please show me.
Oh, well, you’re going to love this then:


Who knew?

Again, my point being that the definition of “racism” is constantly expanded to a very confusing, and unreasonable IMO, degree. I even see it lead to contradictory concepts. Hence, my question 2 about who all agree to the definition, and finally my question 3 asking who/what/where is able to escape any accusation of racism. Because if everything is racist, the word loses its meaning and impact… and it’s a shame when important words and concepts lose their original meaning and impact…

Anyway, thanks for at least addressing my first question, as my original addressee seems either unwilling or unable to answer ANY of my questions…