MORE than HALF of POLICE KILLINGS are MISLABELED, NEW STUDY SAYS

Author: oromagi

Posts

Total: 119
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,689
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
MORE THAN HALF of POLICE KILLINGS are MISLABELED, NEW STUDY SAYS
Researchers comparing information from death certificates with data from organizations that track police killings in the United States identified a startling discrepancy.

By Tim Arango and Shaila Dewan
Sept. 30, 2021Updated 6:55 p.m. ET

Police killings in America have been undercounted by more than half over the past four decades, according to a new study that raises pointed questions about racial bias among medical examiners and highlights the lack of reliable national record keeping on what has become a major public health and civil rights issue.

The study, conducted by researchers at the University of Washington and published on Thursday in The Lancet, a major British medical journal, amounts to one of the most comprehensive looks at the scope of police violence in America, and the disproportionate impact on Black people.

Researchers compared information from a federal database known as the National Vital Statistics System, which collects death certificates, with recent data from three organizations that track police killings through news reports and public records requests. When extrapolating and modeling that data back decades, they identified a startling discrepancy: About 55 percent of fatal encounters with the police between 1980 and 2018 were listed as another cause of death.

The findings reflect both the contentious role of medical examiners and coroners in obscuring the real extent of police violence, and the lack of centralized national data on an issue that has caused enormous upheaval. Private nonprofits and journalists have filled the gap by mining news reports and social media.

“I think the big takeaway is that most people in public health tend to take vital statistics for the U.S. and other countries as the absolute truth, and it turns out, as we show, the vital statistics are missing more than half of the police violence deaths,” said Dr. Christopher Murray, the director of the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington, which conducted the study.

He continued: “You have to look for why those deaths that are being picked up by the open-source investigations, looking in the media and elsewhere, aren’t showing up in the official statistics. That does point to the system of medical examiners and the incentives that may exist for them to want to not classify a death as related to police violence.”

Researchers estimated that over the time period they studied, which roughly tracks the era of the war on drugs and the rise of mass incarceration, nearly 31,000 Americans were killed by the police, with more than 17,000 of them going unaccounted for in the official statistics. The study also documented a stark racial gap: Black Americans were 3.5 times as likely to be killed by the police as white Americans were. Data on Asian Americans was not included in the study, but Latinos and Native Americans also suffered higher rates of fatal police violence than white people.

The annual number of deaths in police custody has generally gone upward since 1980, even as crime — notwithstanding a rise in homicides last year amid the dislocations of the coronavirus pandemic — has declined from its peak in the early 1990s.

The states with the highest rates of police killings were Oklahoma, Arizona and Alaska, as well as the District of Columbia, while the states with the lowest rates were Massachusetts, Connecticut and Minnesota, according to the study.

Researchers estimated that about 20 times as many men as women were killed by the police over the past several decades; more American men died in 2019 during police encounters than from Hodgkin lymphoma or testicular cancer.]

Unexplained or violent deaths in the United States are investigated by coroners or medical examiners, who use autopsies, toxicology tests and evidence like body camera footage to determine the cause and manner of death. The death certificate does not specifically ask whether the police were involved — which may contribute to the undercount identified by the study — but many medical examiners are trained to include that information.

The system has long been criticized for fostering a cozy relationship with law enforcement — forensic pathologists regularly consult with detectives and prosecutors and in some jurisdictions they are directly employed by police agencies.

Yet pathologists have also complained on occasion that law enforcement does not provide them with all relevant information, that they have been pressured to change their opinions, or that coroners, who are usually elected and are not always required to have a medical degree, can and do overrule their findings.

The researchers found that some of the misclassified deaths occurred because medical examiners failed to mention law enforcement’s involvement on the death certificate, while others were improperly coded in the national database.

While The Lancet study did not mention specific cases, there have been recent examples where the initial findings of coroners or medical examiners downplayed or omitted the role of the police when a Black man was killed: Ronald Greene’s death in Louisiana, for instance, was attributed by the coroner to cardiac arrest and classified as accidental before video emerged of him being stunned, beaten and dragged by state troopers.

In Aurora, Colo., the manner of Elijah McClain’s death was ruled undetermined after the police put him in a chokehold and paramedics injected him with ketamine, a powerful sedative. Almost two years later, three officers and two paramedics were indicted.

Even in the case of George Floyd, whose agonizing last breaths under a Minneapolis police officer’s knee were captured on bystander video, the police and the county medical examiner first pointed to drug use and underlying health conditions.

The National Association of Medical Examiners encourages the classification of deaths caused by law enforcement as homicides, in part to reduce the appearance of a cover-up (a homicide may still be deemed justified). But classification guidelines differ from office to office, and there are no national standards.

Roger Mitchell Jr., a former chief medical examiner of Washington, D.C., and an expert on investigating deaths in custody, has long said that death certificates should include a checkbox indicating whether a death occurred in custody, including arrest-related deaths as well as those in jails and prisons.

As long as medical examiners are not specifically asked to include that information, he said, he would not jump to conclusions about why they do not do so: “If it’s a function of training, a function of bias, a function of institutional and structural racism — all the things we can assume — we can identify that once we have a uniform system.”

A federal law passed in 2014 requiring law enforcement agencies to report deaths in custody has yet to produce any public data.

The paper’s top-line findings are similar to the results of a more narrow study conducted at Harvard in 2017 that examined one year — 2015 — and compared official death statistics in the United States with data on police killings compiled by The Guardian.

“It’s highlighting the persistent problem of undercounting of killings by police in official data sources, one of those being mortality data,” said Justin Feldman, a research fellow at Harvard who conducted the 2017 study and was a peer reviewer on the paper published on Thursday in The Lancet.

“This is an ongoing issue that we are still, after all these years, not doing a very good of keeping track of people killed by police,” he added.

The study lands at a time when America has grappled with one high-profile police killing of a Black man after another. But, as the study showed, there are tens of thousands of other deaths that remain in the shadows.

Rulings on the cause and manner of death strongly influence whether criminal charges are brought or whether families receive a civil settlement. The death of Mr. Floyd was classified as a homicide and the death certificate cited law enforcement restraint, but the medical examiner still faced criticism after prosecutors made public his preliminary findings that underlying health conditions and drug use had contributed.

The former chief medical examiner of Maryland, Dr. David Fowler, was also criticized after he testified on behalf of the Minneapolis police officer, saying Mr. Floyd’s death was caused by several factors and was not a homicide.

After an open letter by Dr. Mitchell said that Dr. Fowler’s testimony revealed “obvious bias,” Maryland’s attorney general began a review of in-custody deaths that were handled under Dr. Fowler’s tenure.

Dr. Murray of the University of Washington said that one of the starkest findings was that racial disparities in police shootings have widened since 2000.

The trend contrasts, he said, with other health outcomes, such as heart disease, in which the racial gap has narrowed in recent years.

The study, he and other researchers said, points to the need for a centralized clearinghouse for data on police violence, as well as more scrutiny of coroners and medical examiners.

“There’s been an attempt to limit the reality of what is,” said Edwin G. Lindo, a scholar of critical race theory and professor at the University of Washington School of Medicine, who examined the findings of the study but was not involved in putting it together. “And what I would suggest is, when we don’t have good data we can’t actually make good policy decisions, and I don’t know if that’s an accident for it to be so greatly underreported.”


Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 22,887
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
let's go Brandon!

bmdrocks21
bmdrocks21's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 2,798
4
6
11
bmdrocks21's avatar
bmdrocks21
4
6
11
-->
@oromagi
The issue seems that there is a lot of subjectivity in this.

A couple examples:
- a fat guy runs from cops and collapses and dies of a heart attack
-a man charges cops with a knife and gets tasered. He dies of cardiac arrest

Should these be considered police deaths because they were to some extent involved?

Furthermore, I don’t see what value is to be gained by labeling them all homicides because, as it says, there are justified homicides. If the police are justifiably killing people, yet this study fails to differentiate that, then it seems more like a partisan-motivated study than anything to say that cops are killing a lot of people.
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,689
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@bmdrocks21
-->@oromagi
The issue seems that there is a lot of subjectivity in this.

A couple examples:
- a fat guy runs from cops and collapses and dies of a heart attack
-a man charges cops with a knife and gets tasered. He dies of cardiac arrest

Should these be considered police deaths because they were to some extent involved?
THE NHCS/NVSS standard is "“injuries inflicted by the police or other law-enforcing agents, including military on duty, in the course of arresting or attempting to arrest lawbreakers, suppressing disturbances, maintaining order, and other legal action

  • So, a fat guy who runs from the cops and collapses did not die from injuries inflicted by police and would not be coded as LEGAL INTERVENTION on the coroners report
  • a guy who gets tasered and collapses died from injuries inflicted by the police and ought to coded as LEGAL INTERVENTION on the coroners report
Personally, I think every death during police action should be tagged for State and Federal databases.  As a citizen, I want to know how many fat guy police chase heart attacks agencies are reporting so I can see how that number compares to other police agencies, other states, other nations, other years , etc.

Furthermore, I don’t see what value is to be gained by labeling them all homicides because, as it says, there are justified homicides. If the police are justifiably killing people, yet this study fails to differentiate that, then it seems more like a partisan-motivated study than anything to say that cops are killing a lot of people.
The coroner's job is to determine and report cause of death.  It is false to say that this study fails to differentiate justified from unjustified.  This study only says that the majority of (mostly newspaper) reported deaths by police injury are never recorded by (mostly coroners) as deaths by police injury. 

Since it would be rather awkward to have a prosecutor's determination of justified police homicide when no police homicide was ever recorded by the coroner, we should assume that this majority of non-reported deaths are not investigated and indeed I assume that the whole point of failing to report a police homicide is to avoid investigation altogether.  

That is, this data claims that the majority of police killings in the US never make it to the point where non-biased authorities evaluate whether the homicide was justified or not.

Let's agree that every time a police officer injures somebody in the line of duty that injury should be documented and reported up the line.  If some police dept is injuring citizens at twice the rate of another police dept., we want to know that and have the opportunity to investigate.  If we can agree on that, then we should agree that every citizen's death in police custody or during the course of police action should be noted in that citizen's death investigation and coded for independent review, however subjective the circumstances.

Some subjectivity is probably inevitable but we have some obligation to separate police, prosecutors and coroners' inevitable subjectivity from determinations like justifiable homicide.  One very small measure towards this separation ought to be our insistence that every death in police custody gets reported as such.

Ultimately, this paper stems from the Global Burden of Disease 2019 study.  Scientists are looking the National Health statistics for one cause of morbidity and noting that the reported number bears no resemblance to the police blotter, never mind police killings that never made it into the papers.

Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 22,887
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@bmdrocks21
- a fat guy runs from cops and collapses and dies of a heart attack
-a man charges cops with a knife and gets tasered. He dies of cardiac arrest

Suicide by cop is trending.

Wonder just how many suicides by cop are mislabeled?

ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 12,468
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
Blue Lives Matter.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 22,887
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@ILikePie5
Play stupid games with police, win stupid prizes.
bmdrocks21
bmdrocks21's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 2,798
4
6
11
bmdrocks21's avatar
bmdrocks21
4
6
11
-->
@oromagi

THE NHCS/NVSS standard is "“injuries inflicted by the police or other law-enforcing agents, including military on duty, in the course of arresting or attempting to arrest lawbreakers, suppressing disturbances, maintaining order, and other legal action

  • So, a fat guy who runs from the cops and collapses did not die from injuries inflicted by police and would not be coded as LEGAL INTERVENTION on the coroners report
  • a guy who gets tasered and collapses died from injuries inflicted by the police and ought to coded as LEGAL INTERVENTION on the coroners report
Personally, I think every death during police action should be tagged for State and Federal databases.  As a citizen, I want to know how many fat guy police chase heart attacks agencies are reporting so I can see how that number compares to other police agencies, other states, other nations, other years , etc.

I may have misread your original post from the article . I thought that the current stance was "The National Association of Medical Examiners encourages the classification of deaths caused by law enforcement as homicides, in part to reduce the appearance of a cover-up (a homicide may still be deemed justified)." It appears that this association advocates for classification of police-related deaths as homicides and it is used that way in some jurisdictions. I think because of the connotations of the word 'homicide' (not necessarily the definition, although the Google definition from Oxford Languages says the deliberate and unlawful killing of one person by another; murder.) that it would only further erode the discourse centered around the issue of police-related deaths because it seems to project guilt.

I don't see what value that could be brought by including every death that remotely involves police action. At some point, you're creating a meaningless stat that cannot be used to speculate about officer use of force and (in this case) are including data that only simply points out how morbidly obese our nation is.

The coroner's job is to determine and report cause of death.  It is false to say that this study fails to differentiate justified from unjustified.  This study only says that the majority of (mostly newspaper) reported deaths by police injury are never recorded by (mostly coroners) as deaths by police injury. 
But who is to say that the newspapers are accurately recording the death while the coroners are wrong? The paper has an issue that there are no state or federal standards about reporting police-related deaths, while neglecting that newspapers have no uniform standards either. Unless they are exhaustive and include fat people running. In that case, you'd have the issue mentioned above.

Let's agree that every time a police officer injures somebody in the line of duty that injury should be documented and reported up the line.  If some police dept is injuring citizens at twice the rate of another police dept., we want to know that and have the opportunity to investigate.  If we can agree on that, then we should agree that every citizen's death in police custody or during the course of police action should be noted in that citizen's death investigation and coded for independent review, however subjective the circumstances.

We can agree that there should be some marking that police were involved. I suppose my issue was mainly regarding the terminology that they proposed using and the subjectivity of the paper as to what to include. But if it isn't classified as "homicide" and is related to whether or not an injury occurred, there should be some accountability there. Because whether or not the cop injured someone is pretty objective. Whether or not the cop was the cause of death is much murkier.
bmdrocks21
bmdrocks21's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 2,798
4
6
11
bmdrocks21's avatar
bmdrocks21
4
6
11
-->
@Greyparrot
@ILikePie5
let's go Brandon!

Blue Lives Matter.

Bros wth XD
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 12,468
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@bmdrocks21
Bros wth XD
<3
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 12,468
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@Greyparrot
@bmdrocks21
Everyone should be required to watch Cops. So they know exactly what to do and what not to do when a cop pulls you over.
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@ILikePie5
Blue Lives Matter.
Assuming black and blue lives matter equally would you say that these lives matter more or less than the right of police to commit second degree murder without fear of investigation and possible prosecution?

I would say that lives matter more than this right. 
bmdrocks21
bmdrocks21's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 2,798
4
6
11
bmdrocks21's avatar
bmdrocks21
4
6
11
-->
@ILikePie5
You mean not everyone knows that the best thing to do when pulled over is yell at cops while vigorously digging in the glove compartment?
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,689
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@bmdrocks21
-->@oromagi
I think because of the connotations of the word 'homicide' (not necessarily the definition, although the Google definition from Oxford Languages says the deliberate and unlawful killing of one person by another; murder.) that it would only further erode the discourse centered around the issue of police-related deaths because it seems to project guilt.
So on the one hand
  • we have the necessity of placing checks and balances on state's capacity to kill citizens
and on the other hand
  • we  have some feelings about  words being used in their most traditional meaning and context
Police themselves are extremely familiar with the distinction between homicide and murder.  A Navy Seal killing Osama Bin Laden is 100% homicide, even though that Seal will be rewarded and applauded for that homicide.  A police who who brings down an active shooter has no trouble understanding that he is committing homicide but acts with every expectation that his actions will be deemed justified.   The concerns about projecting guilt come entirely from outside of the professions and conservative traditions of American law enforcement- let's not give those concerns more weight than they deserve.

I don't see what value that could be brought by including every death that remotely involves police action.
  • Information is valuable
    • I do think that police should be obligated to testify regarding every death they witness, whatever the circumstance, even if only because police are likely to be the most experience and well-informed witness across a wide range of circumstances.
  • Checks and balance on state violence is valuable
    • Police's first job is public safety.  Deaths in police custody should always be rare and necessary.  Police should always expect that when they witness a death, their thoughts and actions will be closely scrutinized
At some point, you're creating a meaningless stat that cannot be used to speculate about officer use of force and (in this case) are including data that only simply points out how morbidly obese our nation is.
  • It should be obvious that a use of force death would be coded differently from a medical emergency while fleeing police but it should also be obvious that both statistics are extremely valuable.  We want to know that police chases are ultimately more safe for citizens than not chasing.  How do police chase mortalities compare to tracking perps by copter and drone, etc.?
But who is to say that the newspapers are accurately recording the death while the coroners are wrong?
Because newspapers are subject to a huge amount of public scrutiny while coroners are subject to almost none.  If a reporter falsely reports that somebody got shot by the police last night at such and such an address, the police, local govt, neighborhood citizens will note the error and demand correction.  If a Coroner looks at a guy who got shot to death by police and falsely reports it as accidental death, almost no checks and balances exist to correct.

The paper has an issue that there are no state or federal standards about reporting police-related deaths, while neglecting that newspapers have no uniform standards either.
But Police aren't asking for the power to kill people.  If the news fucks up, they can issue a correction tomorrow.  If a cop fucks- no do- over.  Yes, I do strongly feel that police shootings should be held and overseen to a much higher standard than news reports about police shootings.

We can agree that there should be some marking that police were involved. I suppose my issue was mainly regarding the terminology that they proposed using and the subjectivity of the paper as to what to include. But if it isn't classified as "homicide" and is related to whether or not an injury occurred, there should be some accountability there. Because whether or not the cop injured someone is pretty objective. Whether or not the cop was the cause of death is much murkier.
But that's the point.  If the coroner does not record it as homicide- there is no homicide investigation.  The health workers want the number of investigations into deaths in police custody to match the number of deaths in police custody.  Today, the number of investigations is a minor fraction of all deaths in police custody.

secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@bmdrocks21
You mean not everyone knows that the best thing to do when pulled over is yell at cops while vigorously digging in the glove compartment?
This is unwise for anyone but there are some people who are far more likely to be shot out of hand by police in this situation than others. If you are interested which group you are in the statistics are a matter of public record although deaths by police, like suicides, are somewhat under reported so we can only guess how pervasive the problem actually is. Even the tip of the iceberg we can see is very widespread and ugly.
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 12,468
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@secularmerlin
Assuming black and blue lives matter equally would you say that these lives matter more or less than the right of police to commit second degree murder without fear of investigation and possible prosecution?

I would say that lives matter more than this right. 
All Lives Matter.
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@ILikePie5
Assuming black and blue lives matter equally would you say that these lives matter more or less than the right of police to commit second degree murder without fear of investigation and possible prosecution?

I would say that lives matter more than this right. 
All Lives Matter.
Ok but could you answer the question? 

Which matters more? Someone's life or a police man's right to kill someone without fear of investigation and possible prosecution?
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 22,887
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
Arrest resistors don't matter. Period.

Either you support the law or you do not. There is no grey area.

A Lawless nation relies on giving arrest resistors a protected class status. Which is why 20 Walgreens closed in liberal dystopias due to unchecked theft.
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 12,468
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@secularmerlin
Ok but could you answer the question? 

Which matters more? Someone's life or a police man's right to kill someone without fear of investigation and possible prosecution?
99.5% of cops don’t kill people for fun. The 0.5 that do are in jail or will be in jail.

It’s really simple. Obey their commands and you’ll be fine. If a cop tells you to step out of the vehicle, you do it. If a cop tells you to stop resisting, you do it. End of story.
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@ILikePie5
99.5% of cops don’t kill people for fun. 
Irrelevant to my question please answer my question. 
It’s really simple. Obey their commands and you’ll be fine. If a cop tells you to step out of the vehicle, you do it. If a cop tells you to stop resisting, you do it. End of story.
Always with the threats.

secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
Either you support the law or you do not. There is no grey area.
Patently absurd. I can absolutely support laws that protect the public and simultaneously resist laws which are unjust.

Also the founding fathers definitely were not in support of English law.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 22,887
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@secularmerlin
I meant authority of the law.
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
I meant authority of the law.
The authority of the law or the authority of police?

I'll do my best to answer both. Laws only have authority when enforced like any set of rules. Enforcement can be as simple as social stigma but in the modern world is often enforced by police violence or the threat of police violence whether explicit or implicit. Is might makes right the authority you endorse? I do not. I do not recognize the right of police to do violence to me although this would hardly stop them from doing me violence. I do not recognize their authority only the danger they represent as the strong arm of the capitalist state.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 22,887
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@secularmerlin
Do you support arrest resistors as a protected class?

Do you support voluntary compliance with the law? For example, if you just spent 45 minutes raping a woman on a train, should it be optional to submit to an arrest when law enforcement shows up?

Or should you resist arrest knowing by doing so you will likely be given a protected status?
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
Do you support arrest resistors as a protected class?
Nonviolent protest is protected by the constitution. Innocent until guilt is proved is the required default by law. "Resisting arrest" is not a crime in and of itself.

Do you support voluntary compliance with the law? For example, if you just spent 45 minutes raping a woman on a train, should it be optional to submit to an arrest when law enforcement shows up?
Steps should be taken to protect the public. If possible these steps should be nonviolent. First responders should perhaps not be armed and trained to see everyone as a potentially dangerous criminal. Us versus them is a terrible attitude to have about the people you are sworn to protect. 
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 5,109
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
Reports continue to be released in an attempt to get an exact number of how many people have been shot and killed by police in recent years.
It’s a problem they don’t have in Manchester, England, where the number of deaths in the last 40 years is two. Sir Peter Fahy, the chief constable of the Greater Manchester Police, believes that the the number is the result of a radically different approach toward guns and mental health than we have in the United States.
“The whole way that we train officers is that the absolute last resort is to use your firearm," he says. "When you get into a situation, you assess the situation, you give yourself other options. And it starts from a position, always, that the best weapon is their mouth.”
The vast majority have to use their mouths, or at least not firearms, because only 209 of the 6,700 officers in Manchester’s force are armed. Fahy doesn’t believe that Manchester is particularly safe or small; it’s a busy English city with a population of 2.7 million people, dangerous situations and encounters happen every day.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 22,887
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@FLRW
Does England coddle arrest resistors to the extent or near as the USA does?

I know Australia sure as hell doesn't.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 22,887
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@secularmerlin
Steps should be taken to protect the public. If possible these steps should be nonviolent. First responders should perhaps not be armed and trained to see everyone as a potentially dangerous criminal. Us versus them is a terrible attitude to have about the people you are sworn to protect. 

So you support voluntary compliance with law authorities? If a rapist doesn't feel like getting arrested it should be a viable option?
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
So you support voluntary compliance with law authorities? If a rapist doesn't feel like getting arrested it should be a viable option?
How do these law authorities know who is and isnot a rapist just by looking at them?
bmdrocks21
bmdrocks21's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 2,798
4
6
11
bmdrocks21's avatar
bmdrocks21
4
6
11
-->
@secularmerlin
This is unwise for anyone but there are some people who are far more likely to be shot out of hand by police in this situation than others.

Yeah, men are much more likely to be shot by those sexist officers.

Even the tip of the iceberg we can see is very widespread and ugly.
Ugly compared to what? Belgium?