Work is like a sandwich

Author: secularmerlin

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#121
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@Fruit_Inspector
But even if it were. Even if ten year olds were being taught college level social science classes which is patently absurd what is your objection to the idea? Other than that those classes are way to advanced for those children of course.
#122
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@secularmerlin
These are the basic foundations of understanding.
Please elaborate and be very specific by what you mean when you say this.
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#123
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@Fruit_Inspector
How much more specific must I be? These ideas are to critical race theory what biology 101 is to neuroscience. You might learn about the brain, among other things, in biology but to claim it is the same as taking a course on neuroscience is laughable. 
#124
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@secularmerlin
For example, the idea of systemic racism as promoted by the NEA mirrors how Derrick Bell defined racism in CRT. However, Merriam-Webster did not define racism at all like that until June of 2020. So why is Bell's CRT definition of racism a basic foundation of understanding, rather than the traditional understanding that racism is specifically the beliefs and actions of individuals?
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#125
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@Fruit_Inspector
For example, the idea of systemic racism as promoted by the NEA mirrors how Derrick Bell defined racism in CRT. However, Merriam-Webster did not define racism at all like that until June of 2020. So why is Bell's CRT definition of racism a basic foundation of understanding, rather than the traditional understanding that racism is specifically the beliefs and actions of individuals?
It is both. Language evolves. 
#126
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@secularmerlin
It is both. Language evolves.
How can something that is a basic foundation of understanding (such as racism) be evolving?
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#127
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@Fruit_Inspector
How can something that is a basic foundation of understanding (such as racism) be evolving?
Our understanding is evolving and the language we use is also evolving. In the 1970's open a window would never have brought computers to mind. Sometimes we change how we use language. You can say racism and mean either one colloquially but critical race theory examines one in specific. As long as you are not trying to muddy the waters by pretending that you are using one meaning specifically to smuggle in the other concept later in the conversation I don't see what the problem is that you are having here.
#128
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@secularmerlin
But why are ideas that are unique to CRT (such as Derrick Bell's understanding if racism) all of a sudden considered indisputable truths about reality?
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#129
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@Fruit_Inspector
Do you dispute that systematic racism has existed that it continues to exist or that even if it were dismantled today it would still not put people of color of equal footing without some redistribution of resources?
#130
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@Fruit_Inspector

 As an attorney, Derrick Bell worked on many civil-rights cases, but his doubts about their impact launched a groundbreaking school of thought.
#131
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@secularmerlin
That depends on what you mean by "systemic racism." Are you talking about the concept of racism as articulated by Derrick Bell in CRT, or something else?
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#132
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@Fruit_Inspector
Forget Derrick Bell for a moment.

Yes or no do any existing laws unfairly target people of color implicitly without explicitly condoning racism?

Yes or no have such laws and or explicitly racist laws ever existed?

Yes or no would people of color be suddenly on equal footing if these laws were to end today but nothing was done to address the already existing wealth gap?

#133
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@secularmerlin
Yes or no do any existing laws unfairly target people of color implicitly without explicitly condoning racism?
No.


Yes or no have such laws and or explicitly racist laws ever existed?
No "such laws" have existed. Yes, explicitly racist laws have existed.


Yes or no would people of color be suddenly on equal footing if these laws were to end today but nothing was done to address the already existing wealth gap?
There are no laws that implicitly or explicitly discriminate against people of color in a detrimental way, so "these laws" cannot be ended since they don't exist.
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#134
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@Fruit_Inspector
Yes or no do any existing laws unfairly target people of color implicitly without explicitly condoning racism?
No.


Would you like to rethink that?
#135
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@secularmerlin
I don't really want to download and open a random file. Can you explain what law unfairly targets people of color implicitly without explicitly condoning racism? Or provide a website rather than a pdf link.
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#136
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@Fruit_Inspector
No "such laws" have existed. 

Would you like to rethink that?
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#137
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@Fruit_Inspector
Can you explain what law unfairly targets people of color implicitly without explicitly condoning racism? 
Any law aimed at the poor or the homeless will disproportionately effect people of color because they are disproportionally effected by poverty. Any law that effects convicted criminals will disproportionately effect people of color because they are disproportionally convicted of crime. Any legal statutes that reduces the voting power of these groups will therefore necessarily disproportionately effect people of color. The net effect of making voting more difficult for the poor and the previously convicted is that black communities are harmed by these policies more often than white communities. These policies are often enacted at the level of local government rather than federal.
#138
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@secularmerlin
The article disputes the very claim you are trying to make'
"Ehrlichman died in 1999, but his five children in questioned the veracity of the account.

“We never saw or heard anything from our dad, John Ehrlichman, that was derogatory about any person of color,” wrote Peter Ehrlichman, Tom Ehrlichman, Jan Ehrlichman, Michael Ehrlichman and Jody E. Pineda in a statement provided to CNN.

“The 1994 alleged ‘quote’ we saw repeated in social media for the first time today does not square with what we know of our father. And collectively, that spans over 185 years of time with him,” the Ehrlichman family wrote. “We do not subscribe to the alleged racist point of view that this writer now implies 22 years following the so-called interview of John and 16 years following our father’s death, when dad can no longer respond. None of us have raised our kids that way, and that’s because we were not raised that way.”
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#139
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@Fruit_Inspector
The law nevertheless had the net effect of disproportionately targeting people of color. 
#140
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@secularmerlin
So are laws that punish opioid users implicitly racist against white people, showing evidence that racism against whites is woven into all of our social institutions and practices?
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#141
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@Fruit_Inspector
They are implicitly pro big pharma and disproportionately harm those most effected by the corporate greed that created the epidemic. Systematic oppression takes many forms. Racism is not the only social evil we engage in. Now please try to stay focused especially since we are already on a tangent and a tangent you have brought us on I might add.
#142
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@secularmerlin
I'm trying to understand what you mean when you say "systemic racism" which seems important to a discussion about systemic racism and CRT. You also didn't actually answer the question.

So are laws that punish opioid users implicitly racist against white people, showing evidence that racism against whites is woven into all of our social institutions and practices?
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#143
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@Fruit_Inspector
So are laws that punish opioid users implicitly racist against white people, showing evidence that racism against whites is woven into all of our social institutions and practices?
And again no it doesn't it shows systematic oppression of patients implicitly harming them more than the healthcare industry. Now can we please stay on topic. 
#144
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@secularmerlin
How is clearly defining what you mean when you say "systemic racism" not relevant to the topic?

And you still did not answer the question. Laws that target opioid users disproportionately affect white people. If your standard for identifying racist laws is by how they affect different races, then opioid laws are racist against white people.

How is the existence of laws that are racist against white people not evidence that racism against whites is woven into all our social institutions and practices?
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#145
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@Fruit_Inspector
I've answered your question. Your attempts to muddy the waters are counterproductive. 
#146
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@secularmerlin
And again no it doesn't it shows systematic oppression of patients 
I did not ask about oppression of "patients". I asked about a law that has a net effect of disproportionately targeting white people. Your standard is that racist laws are identified by how they disproportionately affect different races.

You said this specifically:
The law nevertheless had the net effect of disproportionately targeting people of color.

Why is a law that has a net effect of disproportionately targeting people of color considered a racist law, but when it has a net effect of disproportionately targeting white people it is not a racist law?

That is an inconsistent and unfair standard.
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#147
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@Fruit_Inspector
No one is unfairly targeting whites though if for example a corperations was heavily invested in a dangerous but expensive drug then systemic racism might even shelter black communities from the effects as they would be unable to afford the drugs.

You are muddying the waters by falsely conflating one problem (corporate cronyism oppressing any consumers regardless of race) with another (self perpetuating systemic racism that once firmly entrenched continues even with some policy makers best intentions). If I didn't know any better I'd think you were trying to claim that racism doesn't exist as a sheild against accusations of racism but that would be silly since I have not made such an accusation.
#148
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@secularmerlin
Then all we have established is that the standard used to identify implicit racist policies is not the net effect such laws have on different racial groups. The standard is undefined and we have not identified any actual and consistent way to identify racist laws. Thus, I still do not believe there are any implicitly racist laws because I do not know how to identify such a law, at least according to your basic foundations of understanding.

But you can continue with whatever topic we have strayed from.
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#149
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@Fruit_Inspector
Apparently I am correct that our education is insufficient to the task. Your inability to spot racism only girls to show that we do need some kind of curriculum on the subject 

#150
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@secularmerlin
Apparently I am correct that our education is insufficient to the task. Your inability to spot racism only girls to show that we do need some kind of curriculum on the subject 
You have not given any standard, nor have you defined what systemic racism is. My inability to detect "racism" is only due to your unwillingness to elaborate on your vague redefinition of it.

Do you have a consistent standard and definition that you use to identify implicit and/or systemic racism? Or is it just an "I know it when I see it" thing?