USA - A Backsliding Democracy

Author: Double_R

Posts

Total: 129
Topic's author
#1
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 4,281
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
For the first time in its history the United States has been listed as a backsliding democracy. The main catalyst here is clearly Donald Trumps war on the reality that he lost the election, but far more concerning is the GOP’s embrace of his assault on the idea of neutral forces to run elections and count the vote.

I’m just curious what my Trump supporting friends on this site think about this. Why anyone who might call themselves a patriot would support a man who is almost singlehandedly destroying the American experiment.
#2
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@Double_R
I’m just curious what my Trump supporting friends on this site think about this. Why anyone who might call themselves a patriot would support a man who is almost singlehandedly destroying the American experiment.
This was conjugated in the present-progressive tense. Are you under the impression that Donald Trump is still the president? How are you blaming a man who no longer holds a public office?

As far as the "backsliding" democracy, if anything you stated were true, I'd say "good riddance" to democracy.
#3
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 3,205
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
-->
@Double_R
America, American values (As some see them), and the American people first.
The Democrats, News, Celebrities, are all a bunch of Commies.

Though I don't consider myself a Trump supporter, such is a guess, I'd give for 'some people's reasons.
'Not saying such reasons are or are not my own views.
#4
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,040
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Double_R
There's only one universal measure of the prosperity of a society and that is the immigration statistics. If America is backsliding, it's a good thing for global equality since the rest of the world is so far behind.

I'll start to worry when people stop paying 10,000 dollars to ride in a 120 degree trunk to get here.
#5
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,040
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Athias
if anything you stated were true, I'd say "good riddance" to democracy.
We have a crony Democracy at the moment where the only votes that matter are the dollars from lobbyists. The average voter will barely see a fractional percentage point of any corrupt spending from DC. They are not part of the club. Even if they follow orders.
#6
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@Greyparrot
We have a crony Democracy at the moment where the only votes that matter are the dollars from lobbyists. The average voter will barely see a fractional percentage point of any corrupt spending from DC. They are not part of the club. Even if they follow orders.
In order to understand democracy, one has to deconstruct it.

  • How does Democracy work?
  • What is Democracy's purpose?
  • What are the consequences of Democracy?
Democracy functions through majoritarian consensus--i.e. popular vote. That in and of itself is a problem because it operates on the ad populum fallacy a.k.a. consensus fallacy. That is, policy and politicians are dictated and legitimized by popularity. This gives credence to a functional mob-rule.

The next question concerning the purpose of democracy is one about which many seldom think. Simply put, democracy is a means of dispute resolution. But that begs another question: "how does it resolve disputes"? It essentially coerces dissenters and minorities into participating in accordance to the majority's agendas. Now why do I say "coerce?" Because whether one participates or not is immaterial. His or her resources, labor, time, etc. are still subject to the majority's agenda. So then the purpose of Democracy becomes clear. Why is there even a popular vote? Because there are those who disagree (if everyone agreed, there'd be no purpose for a vote.) Why does it matter that there are those who disagree as it concerns a popular vote? Because their time, labor, and resources are wanted/needed. So then, wouldn't that make a democracy a mechanism by which the majority can coerce and seize the time, labor, and resources of minorities and dissenters? Yes.

What are the consequences of democracy? Democracy effectively renders each individual's political agency to nothing more than a subject of majority/popular opinion. It places the onus on the individual to somehow control the sentiments of the majority in order to express his or her rights. It isn't just crony Democracy I oppose, Greyparrot. I reject all democracies. Because there's nothing fair about them even if lobbyists were out of the picture.

#7
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,040
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Athias
What are the consequences of democracy? Democracy effectively renders each individual's political agency to nothing more than a subject of majority/popular opinion. It places the onus on the individual to somehow control the sentiments of the majority in order to express his or her rights. It isn't just crony Democracy I oppose, Greyparrot. I reject all democracies. Because there's nothing fair about them even if lobbyists were out the picture.

This is a sticking point where you and I will fundamentally disagree. "Mob rule" as you put it is the fundamental mechanism for all evolutionary advancements.

The problem is when "the mob" is no longer in control due to the manipulation of information by a select minority.

#8
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@Greyparrot
"Mob rule" as you put it is the fundamental mechanism for all evolutionary advancements.
Such as?

The problem is when "the mob" is no longer in control due to the manipulation of information by a select minority.
Was there ever any control by the masses if a select minority can manipulate information? I don't disagree that there's a select minority manipulating disseminated information. With that said, the influence of said select minority is reinforced because the individual is inescapably subject to the majority, their being manipulated notwithstanding.
#9
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,040
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Athias
Such as?

Survival of the fittest recognizes mob rule as absolute law. The few that do not contribute to survival must be eliminated to prevent extinction.
#10
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@Greyparrot
Survival of the fittest recognizes mob rule as absolute law. The few that do not contribute to survival must be eliminated to prevent extinction.
I knew what you meant. I, more so, was asking for an example of this evolutionary advancement. Are you simply stating that the fact that we're here is a product of mob rule?

#11
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,040
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Athias
Are you simply stating that the fact that we're here is a product of mob rule?

No, I am saying mob rule is being thwarted by elites in DC. We are biologically naturally herd creatures, and DC elites want us to think we are warring tribes within the same herd.
#12
BigPimpDaddy
BigPimpDaddy's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 224
0
2
6
BigPimpDaddy's avatar
BigPimpDaddy
0
2
6
-->
@Lemming
The Democrats, News, Celebrities, are all a bunch of Commies
no they most definitely aren't commies
Topic's author
#13
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 4,281
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Athias
As far as the "backsliding" democracy, if anything you stated were true, I'd say "good riddance" to democracy.
We have our obvious disagreements on what our system of governance should be, but do you seriously deny that the death of democracy will only be replaced by authoritarianism? Do you think that is better? 
#14
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,040
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Double_R
death of democracy will only be replaced by authoritarianism?

People already voted a huge measure of authoritarianism through Democracy, Centrally planned and managed all the way up in DC. which is why Democracy fails.

Founding fathers tried to avoid it with the Constitution, but it's just another sheet of paper to the public.

#15
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 3,205
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
-->
@Double_R
@BigPimpDaddy
Well, I didn't 'quite say that was 'my opinion.
But I 'do think that's the impression a number of people get, of the Left.

Out of curiosity, ever seen Team America: World Police, 2004?

Some people might like Republics, elected officials, or to make the rules in their own backyard.
Rather than pure Democracy of everything.
Too 'much expected selflessness and altruism maybe, in pure Democracy?
Of which it's often not 'true selflessness or altruism, people work to achieve power, control, factions, still, in Democracies.
#16
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,040
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Double_R
And it's really sad because when people believe the lies and vote for additional DC authoritarianism, there are no refunds.

It's there forever until the next revolution.


Topic's author
#17
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 4,281
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Greyparrot
death of democracy will only be replaced by authoritarianism?
People already voted a huge measure of authoritarianism through Democracy, Centrally planned and managed all the way up in DC. which is why Democracy fails.

Founding fathers tried to avoid it with the Constitution, but it's just another sheet of paper to the public.
What are you talking about?

The question was: Do you deny that the death of democracy will only result in it being replaced by authoritarianism? And is that what you would prefer?
#18
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 3,205
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
-->
@Double_R
"Authoritarianism and democracy are not necessarily fundamental opposites as it is possible for some democracies to possess authoritarian elements, and for an authoritarian system to have democratic elements - Wikipedia"
#19
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,040
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Double_R
They are not mutually exclusive as Hitler and Maduro know all to well.
#20
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,579
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
-->
@Double_R
good, democracy is bad
#21
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,319
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Double_R
Democracy is an inherited and modified state of mind, which started in Greece and generally moved North and West, plus a few colonial outliers.

You're not taking social evolution into account.

And nowadays "Patriot" doesn't quite mean the same as it once did.

You and others probably just want things the way that you want them....But even you and them will never completely agree.

So you either have something that is reasonably democratic....Or something that is unreasonably monocratic.
Topic's author
#22
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 4,281
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Greyparrot
They are not mutually exclusive as Hitler and Maduro know all to well.
Let me know when you want to have an actual conversation.
#23
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,040
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Double_R
Let me know when you want to have an actual conversation.

Let me know when you are ready to discuss why democracies without a constitution to protect the people from the government is bad.
#24
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@Greyparrot
No, I am saying mob rule is being thwarted by elites in DC. We are biologically naturally herd creatures, and DC elites want us to think we are warring tribes within the same herd.
So let me ask this: what would be the point of a democracy among a herd? Does your argument not suggest that absent any influence of DC elites, policy decisions would implicitly be unanimous?
#25
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,040
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Athias
As far as policy decisions being unanimous, you also have to recognize the problem of the crony bundling of legislation. It's so bad right now that people are willing to give crooked politicians and their lobbies 90% of a spending bill if it means they MIGHT get to see 10% of it. (of which they paid 100% of it)

In a better system, the majority of the people would get all of it.
#26
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@Double_R
We have our obvious disagreements on what our system of governance should be, but do you seriously deny that the death of democracy will only be replaced by authoritarianism?
Of course i do.

Do you think that is better? 
Do I think that authoritarianism is better? No. But then again, I have explicitly denied that authoritarianism is the inevitable result of an absent democracy.
#27
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
As far as policy decisions being unanimous, you also have to recognize the problem of the crony bundling of legislation. It's so bad right now that people are willing to give crooked politicians and their lobbies 90% of a spending bill if it means they MIGHT get to see 10% of it. (of which they paid 100% of it)

In a better system, the majority of the people would get all of it.
So how would you propose the system better itself so that it functions in accordance to its ideal?

#28
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,040
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Athias
So how would you propose the system better itself so that it functions in accordance to its ideal?
Well that's one hell of a doozy. How about we assign representatives by a lottery system like we select juries. 1 year mandatory service.

President is then selected by the "jury" of Congress.
#29
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@Greyparrot
Well that's one hell of a doozy. How about we assign representatives by a lottery system like we select juries. 1 year mandatory service.
Three questions:

  1. How many representatives?
  2. What happens if this mandate is breached?
  3. What changes do you believe a lottery system effectuates in contrast to the current democratic system?
President is then selected by the "jury" of Congress.
I repeat question 3.

#30
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,040
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Athias
Three questions:

  1. How many representatives?
If we trust 12 people on a jury to make a single decision, and we say the jury system works, then we should have 12 per Congressional district to make their 1 decision for that district.

  1. What happens if this mandate is breached?
Constitutional amendments, or a new constitution after the USA fails.

What changes do you believe a lottery system effectuates in contrast to the current democratic system?
It eliminates the current illusion of choice when candidates are selected by the wealthy elite. People can instead choose to have their names put into the lottery for public service. Registering for the lottery would be a requisite for government programs exactly as selective service currently is.