Free will contradicts theism

Author: Benjamin 2 years ago

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Total: 103

#91

3RU7AL

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3RU7AL

01.09.2022 10:22PM

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@Fruit_Inspector

I believe humans have a will that is free to make choices, but it is not free to make spontaneous choices free from any prior desires or inclinations. We choose according to our strongest desire at the moment of the choice.

humans are slaves to their desires - desires are not chosen

#92

Fruit_Inspector

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Fruit_Inspector

01.09.2022 10:36PM

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@3RU7AL

humans are slaves to their desires - desires are not chosen

And this is why I said to Benjamin that our presuppositions play a huge role inhow we examine this issue. What is a desire, and how responsible are we for them? Is a desire considered to be an internal influence or an external influence? Are desires just an illusion produced by chemical reactions in the brain? These are all questions that affect how we view human will and what it means for a will to be free.

#93

Fruit_Inspector

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Fruit_Inspector

01.09.2022 10:58PM

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@Benjamin

Will is the ability to have priorities and make choices with future results in mind.

What is mind?

This is just a simpler way of saying that the physical brain choses which neurons to fire based on how it has been molded by neuroplasticity.

How does the brain choose? Does it have a will as well?

Then we pretty much agree that choice is bound by what preceeded it. Any such choice is by definition deterministic unless it's random.

That is too vague of a statement. What we disagree on is the what that did the determining. You are saying it's a predetermined chemical reaction that the person has no influence over. In that sense, humans have no more of a will than a potato does. The only difference between us and the potato is that we happen to be conscious of an illusion that our brain is producing for us.

#94

3RU7AL

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Posts: 13,282

3RU7AL

01.09.2022 11:16PM

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@Fruit_Inspector

And this is why I said to Benjamin that our presuppositions play a huge role inhow we examine this issue. What is a desire, and how responsible are we for them? Is a desire considered to be an internal influence or an external influence? Are desires just an illusion produced by chemical reactions in the brain? These are all questions that affect how we view human will and what it means for a will to be free.

the only question you need to answer is

are desires chosen by will

can you decide to like something you are repulsed by

can you decide to be repulsed by something you like

#95

Fruit_Inspector

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Posts: 855

Fruit_Inspector

01.10.2022 12:11AM

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@3RU7AL

the only question you need to answer is

are desires chosen by will

You skipped past the part about clarifying what a desire is and the role it plays in choosing.

#96

Stephen

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Stephen

01.10.2022 08:44PM

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@Benjamin

#81 #90

A+1

#97

3RU7AL

Debates: 3

Posts: 13,282

3RU7AL

01.13.2022 06:35PM

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@Fruit_Inspector

You skipped past the part about clarifying what a desire is and the role it plays in choosing.

you skipped past the part where you freely choose your desires

#98

FLRW

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FLRW

01.13.2022 08:21PM

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@Fruit_Inspector

See https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/science-choice/201610/5-elements-desire-formation

Experiencing and dealing with desire is a central part of our daily life (e.g., food, sleep, social contact, and media use). Desire provides motivational force for pursuing our goals. Desires are directed toward specific objects (or people) with a promise of gain in pleasure (or relief from discomfort). However, there are circumstances where spontaneous desire stands in conflict with painful goals (e.g., a short-term pleasure of enjoying chocolate versus a long-term goal of weight loss). The formation of desire can be broken down into five steps, which results in behavior that people may later regret. Simply being aware of these factors can protect us from making rash decisions.

1. Automatic occurrence.

In general, desire begins in a relatively automatic manner as the brain pleasure centers evaluate external incentives against the state of mind (e.g., hungry, craving, or feeling lonely). For example, negative mood can be a cue that triggers desires to improve one’s current state. In the case of impulse buying, the consumer responds spontaneously when exposed to desirable objects without any further hesitation.

See the article above for 2. through 5.

222 days later

#99

Shila

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Posts: 2,740

Shila

08.24.2022 01:12AM

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@Benjamin

Free will contradicts theism because a creator God necesarily prohibits free will.

P1: An omniscient God knows the complete history of every possible universe; (by necesity including all choices made every universe)

P2: A creator God decided which of the possible universes to create

C: God literally decided how history would turn out and what choices people would make

There is no way around this conclusion. God decided to create a universe where Adam and Eve would eat from the fruit of knowledge. God decided that Adam and Eve would sin, because literally nothing is outside his controll. By definition, nothing happens that conflict with God's decisions. Adam and Eve did not have free will; their choice was no more free than a clock is to show the correct time or not. The creator of the watch is responsible for the watch dysfunctioning, not the watch istself. Blaming a human for a crime is like blaming a gun for a murder --- sure it was the gun who shot the bullet, but the gun was controlled by someone else. This is just an analogy of course, but the point is important.

The problem of evil is so often dismissed without further elaboration by pointing to free will, and that humans (and/or demons), not God, cause evil and suffering in this world. When used to solve the problem of evil free will is nothing short of magic being invoked to dodge the disturbing implications of God's magic.

If we remove the "magic" from the equation we can confidently say that all humans have choice --- but that CHOISE IS NOT FREE FROM EXTERNAL CONTROLL AND CAUSALITY

Jesus is a good example of how God forced a scripted life on Jesus from birth to death.

Matthew 26:39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

#100

Polytheist-Witch