Mod Issues

Author: Mikal

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#121
RationalMadman
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@Vader
You are someone I barely go to anymore about reports beyond having to fill you in as you're deputy mod, so that's not really true or relevant.

You also violated privacy by revealing that as you should never give anybody indication to who is or isn't reporting to you nor what they are reporting.
#122
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@3RU7AL
hypothetically speaking - if you find an account offensive - why would you want to continue to read what they write ?
I don't know, genius, perhaps I don't find everything they post offensive and irrelevant? Perhaps I only find they are offensive and irrelevant often enough for it to be something I don't want filling my notifications?
#123
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@Barney
You realize if I was a dick I could play the same game as RM here and report every post of his I find to be toxic in hopes that maybe one or two will be acted upon and I can go and gloat that I am the Victor because he was banned... and I know you guys would be more inclined to take action against him as well because of who he is and his problems in the past.

Obviously that goes against every belief I have and I was one of the largest supporters against his lengthy ban to begin with. He knows this and thus knows I won't go to the same manipulative lengths he does.

It's laughable that he would call me a bully in light of the fact that I could have probably helped influence a decision on his ban 2 years ago and may even still have been able to do so now but I won't.

In a way, I created this monster, but only out of ignorance that the mods would ever cater to his reports this way. That said, I wouldn't go back and change standing up for him either way.

#124
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@RationalMadman
Can the user see who is reporting what posts? No. 

And that is simply not true. TheRealNihilist is banned from reporting posts due to his overreporting, so we are allowed to disclose.

Most of the current mod team shares the same view I have, so your response you get what from Ragnar or Whiteflame is similar to what I would say. So you avoiding me does no good but makes yourself look foolish
#125
Lunatic
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@Vader
I don't know about other mods, but I haven't done that, in fact I deny more RM reports than approve
I know supa. Out of all the mods, the only one I still ever take issue with is ragnar. The more infuriating thing about this is that when I conversate with him in direct messages he usually agrees with just about everything I have to say when I point out how ridiculous certain reports are. He understands the logic and reasoning, but STILL doesn't put it into effect. Look at the difference between whiteflames response and his just now. Whiteflame admits taking the post down in hindsight probably wasn't the best move, and admits that action was taken prior to knowing full context. Ragnar admits that my logic and reasoning is right, but defends the action of removing the post. Instead of just saying "Hey I made a mistake, let me reverse that" he doubles down. It's really infuriating. 

The most direct example of this is him admitting that the doxxing accusation was complete bogus and still is asking me to edit a photo so as not to "Aggrivate" RM. You know what that says about him? That he is relenting under the pressure of RM's constant reports. He's taking the disneyland dad approach here and instead of punishing the child throwing the tantrum, buys him the candy bar so he will stop whining at him for 5 minutes. Thus encouraging the kid to throw more tantrums.


#126
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@Lunatic
Well I can't say how your personal experience is with Ragnar is, but if it makes you feel better, we technically can override a decision he makes
#127
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@Vader
Well I can't say how your personal experience is with Ragnar is, but if it makes you feel better, we technically can override a decision he makes
Oh great! Can you then override the decision to lock that thread then, considering the head mod said about 4 different times that locking the thread wasn't the right call?

It's a whole lot harder to justify in an instance where interactions are two-sided, largely because it's just an extension of what has been going on in other threads bubbling over into a new thread. That can be a bit spammy at times, but I don't think it necessarily warrants locking the thread, and I wouldn't say that this rose to the level of spam. - Whiteflame

We don't just take the reporter's word for it that a given response is warranted, though I'll fully admit that we don't always come to a decision having become fully aware of the context. So, when it comes to this decision, I respect that there were good reasons to let the thread stand as it was.  - Whiteflame

This is something we should have discussed, especially given the blurred lines you mentioned. And I respect as well that, in the face of uncertainty, it may have been better not to intervene. We employ that standard in other areas of moderation, so this wouldn't have been the first time. - Whiteflame

Applying that type of decision-making here may not have been the best move, but we're new to leading this process ourselves and learning from it. I don't say this to excuse our call, but just to give some insight into what we've been considering before and after we made that call. - Whiteflame 

#128
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@Lunatic
I am going to confirm with whiteflame if that is the case, and then I will do it
#129
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@Barney
@Vader
@whiteflame
I am mainly asking you unlock the thread out of principle here than utility. If no further discussion comes from the thread and it dies, great. I suspect that is most likely to happen, and there probably won't be another post in the damn thread. 

Unlocking the thread will be a big step in proving that moderation intends on becoming less strict, which is what I've been told has been the general aim. It also removes the precedant that the reporter is valued over the reportee, and will be a step in the right direction at removing any stigma that users can just get their way by tattling to the mod, and having the mod comply simply because recieving an overwhelming amount of reports is too much of a pain in the butt.

Prove me, mikal and wylted wrong here by showing that moderation aren't just stubborn guys who make a decision and stand by that decision to the point where any length of reasoning will be pursued to justify a wrongful action taken. That has been my impression of moderation so far. Any time I have brought an issue up I might get responses for a little, but eventually they stop, and the decision stands. 

Is it really neccesary to do that here with something as minor as a locked thread? I am not even asking you guys to unban someone at this point, which is usually what I raise stinks about. 
#130
RationalMadman
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@Barney
@Vader
@whiteflame
@airmax1227
@Mikal
Want to know what is sheer hilarity to me?

One guy talks 'respect' to every single mod like a teacher's pet while simultaneously threatening to ditch the entire site if his beloved Airmax loses the election.

The other has remain despite direct mod abuse against him, doesn't suck up to anybody and is seen as the frail one who needs to keep his ego in check.

If Lunatic was really such a 'man', so above this and I was the manipulative tantrum-thrower why did he research for four hours and more to have quotes for a mafia game about quotes from me? Why isn't he campaigning against 3RU7AL? Why's he so focused on humiliating and abusing his fellow supporter of Airmax and pressuring to ditch Airmax?

The reason is simple, he's the problem. I've never seen such a whiny type of harasser in a long time who thinks he's thick-skinned and all that.
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#131
Mikal
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For context this is why mods will say they aren't going to give you a RO. You can't say you want an RO and mudsling back because you are engaging. Once again it gives the perception you want to be be able to backhand and passively insult people but be immune to them doing the same 
#132
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@Mikal
Opposite. If you don't give an RO I will sling back and still stay the more mature one. Absolute shit I've had to take from this guy for absolutely no justifiable reason. He's lucky I'm as smart and level-headed as I am that I would drop out and back airmax despite him giving me every emotional reason to sabotage it all.
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#133
Mikal
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I can promise you , they are never going to give you an RO when you are provoking him equally. It's considered mutual engagement. If you actually feel harassed, you stop talking and request an RO. And if he continues with you absent from the conversation then they would likely grant it. 

The only thing you are doing now is proving his point (imo)
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#134
Mikal
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@Vader
I think I almost fully agree with Luna on ragnar. I think this all stems from how each mod perceives the TOS. Ragnar can fully admit locking that thread is stupid but does it anyway because he views this as a "tos violation". You guys need to really get off the letter of the law and look more toward the spirit. 
#135
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Want to know what is sheer hilarity to me?
I doubt anyone does.

One guy talks 'respect' to every single mod like a teacher's pet while simultaneously threatening to ditch the entire site if his beloved Airmax loses the election.
You are misqouting me. I responded to this earlier, how I never actually threatened to ditch the site, just that I would be less active lol. If I had the same low standards as you, I could report you for misqouting me, than ragnar can give you the same treatment he gave me by lecturing you publicly about "qoutations". The funny thing is yours isn't sarcastic, yours is a serious misqoute. 

The other has remain despite direct mod abuse against him, doesn't suck up to anybody and is seen as the frail one who needs to keep his ego in check.
"Doesn't suck up to anyone" Try that again after not reporting every post I make for a day, hypocrite lol.

If Lunatic was really such a 'man', 
Lol I never claimed to be "such a man" lmao

so above this and I was the manipulative tantrum-thrower why did he research for four hours and more to have quotes for a mafia game about quotes from me? 
Because you have said some genuinely hilarious sh1t. Not all of the qoutes/roles are at your expense either, really only one or two are. Some of it is sh1t I actually like and agree with lol. But even if it was purely at your exense, and I wanted to make fun of you a bit (off site mind you) about some of the absolute ridiculous antics you have had on the site over the years, I doubt anyone could blame me for that.

Why isn't he campaigning against 3RU7AL? 
I have openly stated that I don't support 3RU7AL as president, what do you mean lol? You were just accusing me of saying I would leave the site if he won, and now you are back tracking that lol. Which one is it, am I so undedicated to the site that I would leave because 3RU7AL is president, or am I secretly supporting him because I am not actively making threads against him? Can't have your cake and eat it too.

But if you want to know why I am not actively making threads against 3RU7AL, it's because I don't actually find his campaign threatening to airmax. I feel most of his supporters only support him, because of the foolish reason of "not knowing who airmax is". If he was actively trying to put down airmax's campaign like you were (while pretending to support him) I would have made threads pointing out the logical inconsistencies with him just as I did with you. He would have made a worthier opponent than you I suspect, because he wouldn't just outright block me when he was proven wrong multiple times ;-)

Why's he so focused on humiliating and abusing his fellow supporter of Airmax and pressuring to ditch Airmax?
Despite your consistent claims that you support airmax, you have single handedly tried to harm his campaign more than anyone else. You have insulted airmax personally, made a call out thread against him, and continue to stand by the argument that he is a power hungry prick. 3RU7AL has done none of this. 

The reason is simple, he's the problem. I've never seen such a whiny type of harasser in a long time who thinks he's thick-skinned and all that.
That the rationalcrybaby himself calls me whiny is ironic. That he supports me whining to the mods in support of them reversing a ban against RM but not elsewhere, shows that he is a narccissist that only cares about rules being applied when they are in his favor.

This we all already know. 
#136
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@Mikal
It's considered mutual engagement.
100% THIS
#137
RationalMadman
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@Mikal
It isn't equal and isn't emotional. Look a few posts above what he calls 'initation' in a reply he gave to Ramshutu. I can give you 2 other examples just 1-2 days ago since I completely let off him where he kept at it.

This isn't about 'back and forth' this is about me defending myself.

He is the delusional one, not me, who thinks that aggression = strength of argument or that what is happening isn't harassment and is a debate.

Him and me are not in a consensual debate about whether or not I am somebody he approves of. I couldn't care less if he approves of me or not. It is him who is doing the entire initation from the start of his return 11 or so days ago to now. He returned to the website and decided to come for my throat from basically day 2 of his return through to now and what he does is play the victim every single time I defend myself against him. I am even extra careful to only ever engage him when he himself did shit first each and every time so he can never do the exact things he's doing (playing the victim).

He has continually been abusive to myself and even supporters of me to bully them away from supporting me and it will continue. Why do you think nobody is posting in support of me? Do you think they don't exist? They do, they just don't want to be his next victim. The reason people so happily and freely post against me is I'm not gonna bully them for over 10 days if they say some shit about me.
#138
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@Mikal
You guys need to really get off the letter of the law and look more toward the spirit. 
UNIFORM ENFORCEMENT
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#139
Mikal
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@3RU7AL
I kind of disagree a bit with uniform enforcement but do agree that it simplifies stuff. Some of these cases are so unique you have to almost treat them differently. 

That being said if uniform enforcement really does become a thing , I'm also okay with that. As long as it airs to free speech and the only thing mods interfere with are direct attacks that are relentless and doxing, etc 
#140
Vader
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@Lunatic
The thread has been unlocked
#141
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@Mikal
Some of these cases are so unique you have to almost treat them differently. 
if

some "unique case" highlights a failure of the rules

then

a proposal to modify the rules should be presented for review
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#142
Mikal
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You do realize you possess the capability to defend yourself without mudslinging back. It's akin to someone hitting you and instead of retreating you opt to immediately start trying to harm them back. If you stopped trying to attack back and making passive insults (I'm not going to quote you, you can read your own posts), it would make you look better. At that point it would seem as if he is the one attacking you when you have removed yourself from the conversation. If he continued at that point, you would have a case for an RO

At the moment you are consistently proving him right. I honestly think you feel like you have to have the last word , or you have to get a quip in instead of dropping the conversation. It fully reinforces the idea that you want to be able to punch but not be punched at 


#143
RationalMadman
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@Vader
It doesn't matter if you do or don't as he is the type of guy who would have continually abused and harassed me whether you did or didn't close that thread (why else is he calling me RationalCrybaby again and again instead of RM).

Whether you unlocked it or not, he'd keep abusing me until you set up an RO where his abusive tendencies would inevitably have led to him either violating it or coming after another user. He can't help himself, it's just a waiting game for me. The only way he's unbanned at the moment is due to favouritism and sticking to forum games where the way he talks is considered okay.

He will eventually find that the rules apply to him, your leniency on him will only last so long. I am aware I am fighting with my hand tied behind my back since you'd ban me the instant I was even half as nasty back at him. I also don't want to engage him like that, it doesn't achieve anything. He's a bully who won't stop what he's doing whether I am passive or active in my defense against it. The only time he'd stop is if I totally give in and don't respond at all.
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#144
Mikal
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@3RU7AL
I could agree with most of this as long as it was clearly defined and aired toward lenient instead of harsh 

My vote would go to entirely subjective at adherent to white flame as head mod 

Or fully and clearly defined 
#145
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@Mikal
You do realize you possess the capability to defend yourself without mudslinging back. It's akin to someone hitting you and instead of retreating you opt to immediately start trying to harm them back. If you stopped trying to attack back and making passive insults (I'm not going to quote you, you can read your own posts), it would make you look better. At that point it would seem as if he is the one attacking you when you have removed yourself from the conversation. If he continued at that point, you would have a case for an RO

At the moment you are consistently proving him right. I honestly think you feel like you have to have the last word , or you have to get a quip in instead of dropping the conversation. It fully reinforces the idea that you want to be able to punch but not be punched at 
We will see, it's just a waiting game for me. He has already done more than others have who got temp-banned, me included.

He is only being treated so lenient out of fear of peer pressure reactions.

He will keep violating the rules and abusing me until it's gone too far and I am not about to let up on him either, the difference is I know the rules and he's going to keep breaking them. You will just watch. I am done being nice to him. He keeps fucking with me and one of us will end up punished, that's my only promise not a threat just an inevitable fact.
#146
Vader
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@RationalMadman
My leniancy applies to you and luna. Both of you have said stuff that David/Virt would most likely ban you for (no offense to them). I am much more lienant in what I do ban and don't ban for
#147
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@Vader
The thread has been unlocked

Thankyou.
#148
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@Vader
What would you ban me for saying to Lunatic, entertain me please.

I could give you examples of the opposite but will prefer to keep it private as unlike him, I report in private as one should do. You are the one who decided to discuss about reports from me publicly.
#149
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@RationalMadman
I would not ban either you or Luna, and hell, I wouldn't even give a warning. I'm saying that administrations in the past would. Remember your whole fiasco with David and your 2 month ban.
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#150
Mikal
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To clarify his position and my position as well. These type of spats unless they border on relentless, abusive, or start getting into doxing should be allowed. It's a debate website. People should expect a back and forth even if it gets heated. With mod intervention only happening when it's absolutely necessary.