Sedition

Author: Greyparrot ,

Posts

Total: 26
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 12,414
3
4
8
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
8
What is the difference between political disagreement, protesting and sedition?
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 370
Posts: 13,275
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
  • 'Political disagreement' needn't be physical nor in any way insinuate it (it can, technically even an extremist is a genuine political entity that can disagree with others but that is not what the term refers to).
  • 'Political protest' has actually got the biggest range in terms of physicality, in what you asked. This can range from standing silently in a place nobody minds, to big-scale strikes that block entire mainstream roads that people use for transport. If it becomes a violent and aggressive protest, it is still in theory a protest but becomes classified as a 'riot'.
  • 'Political sedition' involves three different parts...
To explain how sedition works, we need to analyse the ways that violent rebels feel entitled to their violence:

  1. Demonise whatever is the current authority (whether rightfully or wrongly) and make clear that they leave no option available to stop them other than violence.
  2. Fuel hatred to a certain sect within society (more genuine sedition sticks solely to the ruling class of monarchs, very rich and politicians as these sects). The sects that you divide down and alienate can be sex-based, sexuality based, age-and-income combined based, religion-based, political-outlook based, ethnicity-based etc. There's many lines to divide down and ways to push for the anger towards that group. Sedition combines idea 1 with idea 2 to push the narrative that maybe (definitely but they tend to stick to 'maybe' in their narrative) violence towards that group and cruelty verbally as well are the only options. Over time a hostility grows to the point of violent abuse to that group that can result in several hate marches throughout a place where they beat the crap out and even set on fire the people of the persecuted target-group, feigning as exercising their freedom. These will involve a lot of vandalism as well.
  3. When you have achieved 1 and 2, you must then actually properly state the idea that these should be acted on. Making not violently and obtrustively acting in favour of the cause seen as immoral bystander mentality. This part of the narrative is very essential, it leads to believers pressuring others to join in.

oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 99
Posts: 6,667
7
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
7
10
11
POLITICAL DISAGREEMENT is "A condition of not agreeing  in a political context"

PROTEST is "To make a strong objection"

SEDITION is "Overt conduct, such as speech and organization, that tends toward rebellion against the established order. Sedition often includes subversion of a constitution and incitement of discontent toward, or insurrection against, established authority."

Most political disagreement and protest is loyal protest and disagreement.  Sedition is explicitly disloyal.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 12,414
3
4
8
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
8
I mean, isn't all dissenting speech technically rebellion against the established order?
Wylted
Wylted's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 5,716
3
4
11
Wylted's avatar
Wylted
3
4
11
sedition is not disloyal. American citizens have an obligation to be loyal to the principles of John Locke, whose ideals this country was founded on. In fact it can be sedition to not oppose the current order.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 12,414
3
4
8
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
8
--> @Wylted
Exactly. What is the purpose of Democracy if not to overthrow the established Order?

The very essence of Democracy is in itself a rebellion against the established order. It's just less violent than a guillotine.
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 99
Posts: 6,667
7
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
7
10
11
--> @Wylted
sedition is not disloyal.
By definition it is.
American citizens have an obligation to be loyal to the principles of John Locke, whose ideals this country was founded on.
John Locke was a 17th Century English citizen who would be offended by the suggestion that Americans should swear loyalty to him.  Locke's ideas certainly had a strong influence on our US Constitution as did many others.  Madison  and Hamilton arguably had the most influence on the US Constitution but either would be revolted by the notion of swearing loyalty to an individual's ideals rather than to "We the People" and the government we formed.   Some people just don't understand democracy and are constantly looking for another king to swear oaths to.  This is a total misunderstanding of the American experiment and again, inherently disloyal.

Wylted
Wylted's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 5,716
3
4
11
Wylted's avatar
Wylted
3
4
11
--> @oromagi
We the people so much that they literally made checks and balances to oppose mob mentality taking over.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 12,414
3
4
8
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
8
--> @Wylted
Why is it considered a virtue to be loyal to the established order anyway? If that was the case, only evil people would vote against the system.
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 14
Posts: 1,889
3
3
8
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
8
--> @Greyparrot
I mean, isn't all dissenting speech technically rebellion against the established order?
(In the voice of Morpheus): He is the one.


Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 12,414
3
4
8
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
8
--> @Wylted
All people have the right to life, liberty, and private property; under the social contract, the people could instigate a revolution against the government when it acted against the interests of citizens, to replace the government with one that served the interests of citizens. In some cases, Locke saw revolution as an obligation. For him, the right of revolution acted as a safeguard against tyranny.

"Whenever the Legislators endeavor to take away, and destroy the Property of the People, or to reduce them to Slavery under Arbitrary Power, they put themselves into a state of War with the People, who are thereupon absolved from any farther Obedience, and are left to the common Refuge, which God hath provided for all Men, against Force and Violence. Whensoever therefore the Legislative shall transgress this fundamental Rule of Society; and either by Ambition, Fear, Folly or Corruption, endeavor to grasp themselves, or put into the hands of any other an Absolute Power over the Lives, Liberties, and Estates of the People; By this breach of Trust they forfeit the Power, the People had put into their hands, for quite contrary ends, and it devolves to the People, who have a Right to resume their original Liberty."

-Locke
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 99
Posts: 6,667
7
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
7
10
11
"Whenever the Legislators endeavor to take away, and destroy the Property of the People, or to reduce them to Slavery under Arbitrary Power, they put themselves into a state of War with the People, who are thereupon absolved from any farther Obedience, and are left to the common Refuge, which God hath provided for all Men, against Force and Violence. Whensoever therefore the Legislative shall transgress this fundamental Rule of Society; and either by Ambition, Fear, Folly or Corruption, endeavor to grasp themselves, or put into the hands of any other an Absolute Power over the Lives, Liberties, and Estates of the People; By this breach of Trust they forfeit the Power, the People had put into their hands, for quite contrary ends, and it devolves to the People, who have a Right to resume their original Liberty."

And which Legislators endeavored on Jan 6th to take away and destroy the Property of the People (US Capitol) and to reduce them to Slavery under Arbitrary Power (by  knowing falsification of voting results and usurpation of the democratic vote)?

That was Donald Trump, Meadows, Cruz, Greene, Brooks, Boebert, Cawthorne, Gohmert, Gosar, Biggs, etc.

There is no question that Locke, Madison, Hamilton, would call for Trump & Co. to hang for their many treasons (Russian and otherwise) from the cherry trees lining the Reflecting Pool before the Lincoln Memorial.  Make no mistake which side the People are on and which side a corrupt and compromised political party.

3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 10,168
3
4
8
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
8
--> @oromagi
There is no question that Locke, Madison, Hamilton, would call for Trump & Co. to hang for their many treasons (Russian and otherwise) from the cherry trees lining the Reflecting Pool before the Lincoln Memorial.
would that happen to include the capital police who opened the doors for the protesters ?

in 33 seconds,
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 12,414
3
4
8
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
8
I'm pretty sure DC sanctioned riots and lootings, unlawful lockdowns, unreasonable inflation through QE all qualifies as willful destruction of the property of the people.

Locke will have his day.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 12,414
3
4
8
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
8
--> @3RU7AL
It's interesting to note that not one person was charged for sedition for burning down a police building.

If that's not sedition, then nothing is.
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 99
Posts: 6,667
7
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
7
10
11
--> @3RU7AL
-->@oromagi
There is no question that Locke, Madison, Hamilton, would call for Trump & Co. to hang for their many treasons (Russian and otherwise) from the cherry trees lining the Reflecting Pool before the Lincoln Memorial.
would that happen to include the capital police who opened the doors for the protesters ?

in 33 seconds,
That is a false interpretation of the video.  In fact, the video does not show any police opening the door, merely standing by resignedly as the doors are again opened by rioting seditionists from the inside.  Keep in mind this video [First tweeted by OAN's Christina Bobb on Jan 8th] was taken about five minutes after the upper west doors were breached, the seventh of eight breaches in the Capitol's defenses that afternoon and more than two hours after the rioting seditionists first breached the Capitol.  By the time this video was taken, these police had engaged in at least three prior violent clashes and were now essentially surrounded by the enemy attack.

So, no.  I would not hang these men.  They may have been defeated that day but they were not trying to overthrow America Democracy.
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 9,588
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
--> @Greyparrot
Our new defense to J6 should be, “it was a mostly peaceful protest.”

Own dem libs
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 12,414
3
4
8
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
8
--> @ILikePie5
Nah, in a mostly peaceful protest, cops get shot, they don't get to shoot back.
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,410
3
2
4
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
4
--> @ILikePie5
Our new defense to J6 should be, “it was a mostly peaceful protest.”
Too bad for you that the political right including and especially the guy on your avatar photo to this day continues to defend the conduct of those who were not peacefully protesting.

You must get tired of all the pretzels you have to twist yourself in.
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,516
3
2
5
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
2
5
§2384. Seditious conspiracy
If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.
(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 808July 24, 1956, ch. 678, §1, 70 Stat. 623Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXIII, §330016(1)(N), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2148.)
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 12,414
3
4
8
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
8
--> @FLRW
or to destroy by force the Government of the United States.
Cosplaying as a Shaman is considered a show of force, confirmed.
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 9,588
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
--> @Double_R
Too bad for you that the political right including and especially the guy on your avatar photo to this day continues to defend the conduct of those who were not peacefully protesting.

You must get tired of all the pretzels you have to twist yourself in.
Less damage than your comrades during the summer of love :) 

No one is defending their conduct. That’s the biggest strawman. 
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 12,414
3
4
8
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
8
--> @ILikePie5
There is only one party in America right now that condones political violence.

ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 9,588
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
--> @Greyparrot
I love these massive strawmen that the liberals have built.

No one is saying J6 was good, but it sure as hell wasn’t worse than the summer of love and people sure as hell don’t deserve to be living in solitary confinement.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 12,414
3
4
8
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
8
--> @ILikePie5
No one is saying J6 was good, but it sure as hell wasn’t worse than the summer of love and people sure as hell don’t deserve to be living in solitary confinement.

"rightwingbad" can be used to justify atrocities even Hitler would be ashamed of.