Genuine Discussions

Author: Yassine ,

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Yassine
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- Since I joined this website, I've always been argumentative. Evidently! That's why I'm on a debate website to begin with, duh! I love destroying opponents. However, I wanna try something different instead.

- In this thread I will genuinely discuss with you absolutely any topic you wish to discuss, with open-mindedness. I will try my best to be understanding of your viewpoint, while sincerely sharing the Islamic perspective, hopefully without being argumentative.

- I hope you too share my initiative.


[For reference, I'm a traditionalist Muslim, I adhere to Maliki Law, Ash'ari Theology & Junaidi Mysticism.]
RationalMadman
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Do you know what I find amusing about your idea of 'genuine', your only comeback when one reveals horrors of your religion and Sharia cultures and the historical acts of them is to retort 'but your bullshit Christianity and the West'.

That's not defense, that's saying you see what they did wrong and know Islam did as wrong (if not worse). This is going to be precisely how this thread goes, I already know it and have interacted enough with you to know that.

I also have reasons to fear saying anything too negative about the faith of Islam due to what some adherents would do to me the moment they could if I were ever doxxed. That's not a baseless fear, I have lots of genuine reason to be afraid.
Yassine
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Do you know what I find amusing about your idea of 'genuine', your only comeback when one reveals horrors of your religion and Sharia cultures and the historical acts of them is to retort 'but your bullshit Christianity and the West'.
- That is one of my comeback styles indeed, but not the only one. The intent here is three-fold. On one hand, showing the inconsistency between the opponent's accusations & their own basis serves to illustrate the incoherence of their claim. On another, I believe that the best equalizer of bias is when the shoe is on the other foot. & finally, if the opponent can not justify their own basis in light of the same accusations they are making against others, then they are NOT justified to make those accusations. 


That's not defense, that's saying you see what they did wrong and know Islam did as wrong (if not worse).
- That is the point of contention itself. Whether Islam dis as wrong or worse or otherwise is the very object of difference of opinion. I may claim Islam is better & you may claim the opposite, either must be demonstrated to conform to Truth first before concession. For best such arguments, one must show all the following:
  1. That Islam, in fact, did such & such.
  2. That such & such, in fact, is wrong.
  3. That wrong, in fact, is the case.

This is going to be precisely how this thread goes, I already know it and have interacted enough with you to know that.
- What would be your own approach in response to me (hypothetically) posting threads about 'West is wrong' & 'Christianity is wrong'...? What is a good argument look like to you? What is it exactly you find objectionable about pointing out hypocrisy & incoherence?


I also have reasons to fear saying anything too negative about the faith of Islam due to what some adherents would do to me the moment they could if I were ever doxxed.
- What do you mean exactly by "too negative"? Who are the "some adherents"? You can always instigate a formal debate, why don't you?


That's not a baseless fear, I have lots of genuine reason to be afraid.
- What are your reasons? Honestly, at least to me, this sounds like an excuse to avoid actual debate. 
RationalMadman
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What are your reasons? Honestly, at least to me, this sounds like an excuse to avoid actual debate. 

Just some things to consider, as well as things like this:

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What would be your own approach in response to me (hypothetically) posting threads about 'West is wrong' & 'Christianity is wrong'...? What is a good argument look like to you? What is it exactly you find objectionable about pointing out hypocrisy & incoherence?
I am not a Christian for starters, so your attack is mostly irrelevant, neither are most of those you debate against.

Christianity doesn't have lines like this though:

Those who said about their brothers while sitting [at home], "If they had obeyed us, they would not have been killed." Say, "Then prevent death from yourselves, if you should be truthful." And never think of those who have been killed in the cause of Allah as dead. Rather, they are alive with their Lord, receiving provision,
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- You have to be more clear as to your reasons. News about ISIS attacking this or that are simply not relevant to the point in question. In the real world, Islamic debates takes place all over the world on a daily basis -including in the US, & thousands of channels criticize Islam & Muslims 24/7. You're yourself doing that this very moment & on every occasion you find to respond to me. It is obvious that 'I am afraid to debate Islam, because ISIS attacked someone in Bangladesh in 2016, or some dude got assassinated in Iran' is not a valid defense. If I was among them, I'm sure they will behead me immediately too, for I am Ash'ari & Sufi. Yet here I am speaking leisurely about my faith.

- As to ISIS, they are mostly followers of the Sururi faction of Wahhabis, who are anti-Saudi government; contrasted against the Jami faction, the mainstream in Saudi Arabia & loyal to the state. Sururis are followers of Juhayman (the guy who caused the 1979 Holy Mosque crisis), who is also a follower of Ikhwan-men-tahllah, a branch of the Saudi military. In early 20th century, this group along with other Wahhabis was supported & funded & armed by the British to undermine Hashimite control of Arabia, to dismantle the Ottoman Empire. Sururis -hence ISIS- believe that followers of the traditional schools of Islam are either innovators or straight kafir, that Sufis are kafir, & that anybody can interpret the Quran & Hadith without need for scholarship, contradicting the traditional schools. In fact, during the Saudi Wahhabi conquest of Arabia, Ikhwan-men-tahllah massacred entire Muslim towns with their women & children, such as Taif & Hayl in Arabia. ISIS is actually not as bad as its predecessor.


I am not a Christian for starters, so your attack is mostly irrelevant, neither are most of those you debate against.
- So, if I say "West is wrong" you don't find appropriate to say "Islam is wrong too"?


Christianity doesn't have lines like this though:
- If you mean, the Bible does not have lines exactly like this, then I suppose you're right. If you mean, the Bible does not have lines as bad or worse than this, then that's inaccurate. 
"And now, slay every male among the infants, indeed, slay every woman knowing a man by the lying of a male, and all the infants among the women who have not known the lying of a male you have kept alive for yourselves." Numbers 13:17-18
"And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profanes her father: she shall be burnt with fire.".
"Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace to the earth! I came not to bring peace, but a sword. I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law." Matthew 10:34-35
"But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.” Luke 19:27


Those who said about their brothers while sitting [at home], "If they had obeyed us, they would not have been killed." Say, "Then prevent death from yourselves, if you should be truthful." And never think of those who have been killed in the cause of Allah as dead. Rather, they are alive with their Lord, receiving provision,
- I'd preferred if this was brought to its full conclusion, i.e. what is the point of objection, & why is that objection the case. I'll try to fill in the blanks myself then. First thing's first. This verse has been revealed in the aftermath of the Battle of Uhud, in which the Quraysh attacked the Medina (the beloved Prophet's city). Over 70 Muslims died, including the Prophet (pbuh)'s uncle. Objections that may be raised here:
  • The killed is dead, contrarily to the verse stating those killed are not to be thought of as dead. – Objection: statement contradictory to reality.  – Answer: they are indeed physically dead, for they are killed, but spiritually alive with their Lords in the next life.
  • Death in the cause of Allah is good, for those killed in the cause of Allah are special to Him. – Objection: death in the cause of Allah should be bad. As to why that might be the case, I'll leave it to you. – Answer: death in the cause of Allah, aka Shahada (Martyrdom), means death while in the struggle to defend or pursue the cause of Allah, which is Justice & Compassion. Examples of people the beloved Prophet (pbuh) deemed martyrs: who is killed in battle fighting to defend his nation, who is killed defending his family or his property, who is killed speaking truth against a tyrant ruler, who sunk while in a good cause, who died by an accident while performing a good deed, a mother who dies giving birth...etc.
RationalMadman
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ISIS didn't attack in bangladesh, the government's enforcers who brutalise those that stand in the way of Islam did.

In many places internationally, they plot and wait for anyone bold enough to oppose them, whether it's an author of 'satanic verses' in Norway or some cartoonists in France and/or Denmark as well as in Britian or really any place at all on the planet that they have the ability to instil fear and attack you.

Islam has always ruled by this method, from the start through to now, Muhammad was a very sadistic leader no matter which part of the Hadith that's observed, it's just he would pretend not to be because he'd preach something about being merciful while Khalid and Muhammad's other enforcers did the dirty work for him.
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I will not be saying any more on this. I will respect that they rule by fear and admit I fear.

Nothing at all is unrealistic about this fear. I know who I am messing with and don't want to say anything more as they really can harm me and potentially those close to me if I anger them too much.
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Also, the difference between me and others here (except Lunar709 who actually will call Islam out) is that I can admit my fear, the rest are just as scared, it's why they're not posting here and just upvote your posts back at me because they haven't got shit to say out loud about Islam.
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--> @Yassine
However, I wanna try something different instead.

- In this thread I will genuinely discuss with you absolutely any topic you wish to discuss, with open-mindedness.
Why is this not your approach all of the time?
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So, if I say "West is wrong" you don't find appropriate to say "Islam is wrong too"?
Not really, no. If the West is wrong in some way, that has to be addressed.
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--> @Yassine
What would be your own approach in response to me (hypothetically) posting threads about 'West is wrong' & 'Christianity is wrong'...? What is a good argument look like to you? What is it exactly you find objectionable about pointing out hypocrisy & incoherence?
This is the problem with Islam. No amount of self reflection. The West and christians can look at themselves and say "how can we be better", so saying the west and christianity is wrong, is what we do all the time, so we can improve.

Muslims are generally unable to self reflect and try to improve the general community. I saw this one instance of a guy saying Muslims are violent. The Muslim response was too get angry and say "This guy said muslims are violent, lets get him", and there was indeed threats on his life from muslims, mad that he said muslims were violent.

This is really a huge lack of introspection.
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This is the problem with Islam. No amount of self reflection. The West and christians can look at themselves and say "how can we be better", so saying the west and christianity is wrong, is what we do all the time, so we can improve.
Considering our answer to this has been 'let girls going through an awkward puberty saw their tits off and castrate any young boy who looks sideways at a Barbie', tbh I could go for some more cultural chauvinism and a refusal to 'improve'.
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--> @Yassine
- If you mean, the Bible does not have lines exactly like this, then I suppose you're right. If you mean, the Bible does not have lines as bad or worse than this, then that's inaccurate. 
"And now, slay every male among the infants, indeed, slay every woman knowing a man by the lying of a male, and all the infants among the women who have not known the lying of a male you have kept alive for yourselves." Numbers 13:17-18
"And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profanes her father: she shall be burnt with fire.".
"Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace to the earth! I came not to bring peace, but a sword. I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law." Matthew 10:34-35
"But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.” Luke 19:27
A lot of that stuff is metaphorical or in some very specific instances. The koran speaks of constant war. You don't hear about forgiveness of your enemy. Or turning the other cheek, like Jesus promotes. Instead it is "kill your enemy"

You can walk into any christian church, even wearing muslim garb, and you will be welcomed like a  brother. I very much doubt, I could enter one of your temples and leave alive.
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RM was brave enough to admit his fears, so I will admit mine. I'm sure it will make you happy that people fear you, because as Muslims say "We love death, like you love life".

I too worry. Any critcism of islam might result in some muslim attempting to kill you. They'll murder you, probably to shut you up, because they fear the truth. I have probably watched maybe a dozen videos of muslims beheading soldiers and journalists. I have seen Muslims cheer when a speaker mentions stoning a homo to death. I don't agree with their lifestyle, but your response is to murder fags, while we try to help them turn away from their sin. Most religions are about peace and love, Islam is the only main religion that is the opposite
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--> @Wylted
I'm unfamiliar with Islam, so I'm unsure of what I offer, 'but,

As for open or closed groups,
Depends on the time, place,
Individuals and groups, Christian, Atheist, Islamic.
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--> @Lemming
The earlier books are like that. The book itself says later verses when contradicting the earlier ones, supercede the earlier ones. The late verses are all about war. Even peace treaties in the book are just meant to be temporary, so they have time to rebuild strength before going to war again.
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--> @Wylted
The Christian Bible varies as well,
Three well known Abrahamic religions,
Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
Share a number of similarities, I'd assume.
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--> @Lemming
You'd be wrong.

It's like assuming German and English is similar, just because they both have latin roots.

You don't really see Jews flying planes into buildings, or Christians actually beheading muslim reporters and soldiers on camera for fun. There is just one religion that creates these sorts of extremists, who feel they have a duty to kill as many non muslims as humanly possible.
Wylted
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read the politically incorrect guide to islam, by robert spencer
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--> @Wylted
All I have to be is even 'slightly familiar with human history, and you will find Christians and Jews who have committed terrorism or slaughter.

I do not mean this as a condemnation of 'anyone, but that individuals ought see themselves and history clearly.
Groups and individuals vary, from time and place.
Teachings vary, from time and place.

Least, such is 'my opinion.
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--> @Lemming
Lemming, If you have a country that is predominantly muslim like Iran, and you have a predominantly christian country like America, why is it always the mostly muslim countries, where terrorists come from. Even the terrorists in the united states largely come from muslim countries or descended from them.

Hell, even tolerant liberals acknowledge that Muslims have a problem with violence.

When trump announced he would use statistics to determine where the most foreign terrorists come from and make it harder to travel from there, every muslim and liberal in the country, automatically assumed the statistics would show that mostly muslims would be effected.  They called it anti muslim, when he merely mentioned using statistics to shut down travel from countries where statistically the most terrorists come from.

If even Muslims can admit they are violent and be upset at that measure, why can't you?
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--> @Wylted
It's 'not about being 'Muslim, so much as one's time and place.
Would you say 'modern British persons are a bunch of colonizers, conquerors, enslavers?

I don't know much about the Middle East, so I've little to say on their situation,
But I find it likely that were someone raised a Muslim, their outlook, actions, would vary, from country to country, that they were raised in.
I'm sure Muslims in the Middle East, have varied, from time period to time period.
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That's pretty much what muslims were like back when Salidan was murdering thousands of christians. They legit have not changed in tactics. They wish to slowly hunt down and kill all non muslims. They probably feel guilty if they are on their death beds and have not managed to kill one.

Not every belief system is good lemming. I think we start from an assumption that all religions are like judaism and christianity and buddhism, where we are ultimately taught to love one another and be peaceful. Islam is a very unique religion. They even have verses in the quran that allow them to lie to non muslims, if it helps them advance islam in it's global conquest. look up takiyya
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--> @Wylted
I'd have to read the History of the Crusades to have a stronger opinion,
But I'm thinking there was killing and conquering on both sides, various times, same times, sometimes.

From what I 'do vaguely recall, Saladin was often praised by people of the West, for his wisdom, chivalry.

I'd have to read more on Islam to have a stronger opinion,
But from what little I've read, there's wisdom, kindness that 'could be gained in it's study, practice.
Same with Confucianism, Christianity, Judaism, and various other religions, philosophies, I'm sure.

Ah, got phone call, last thought.
Mentioned by Chaplain Henry Gerecke-Nuremberg Chaplain