i thought dr. long's book 'evidence of the afterlife' was the best book on evidence of the afterlife... it looks like another book might be better. i have it ordered and will start reading it soon.
it is irrational to argue that there's no evidence for the afterlife
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he also has a great looking book about how christianity might mesh with NDEs.
he also has a foundational book about critical thinking... that most all ya'll skeptics here need to read and implement.
it's great to find a researcher who is versed in critical thinking, and science, able to expound on these cutting edge research topics.
In Stephen Hawking's final book, he says:
“We are each free to believe what we want, and it's my view that the simplest explanation is that there is no God. No one created the universe and no one directs our fate.”
He then goes on to write: “This leads me to a profound realization – there is probably no heaven and afterlife either. I think belief in an afterlife is just wishful thinking. There is no reliable evidence for it, and it flies in the face of everything we know in science.”
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@n8nrgim
I would say I take the same view as Tradesecret, in that there's a distinct difference between an NDE, and actual death.
I do think there is a difference between a hallucination, and the experiences some have proclaimed with an NDE. I believe there's a spiritual realm that includes an element of deception, similar to people receiving spiritual visions that are distinct from hallucinations. An NDE, like a spiritual vision can either originate from Jesus, or from Satan.
I remember a thread asking about mine, and another person's spiritual or religious views I meant to answer, but got sidetracked. I forgot who asked it, but looking back at the thread, I think it was you. I describe myself as a Christian (believer), and take the view that the Bible is the inspired/accurate Word of God which is probably evident in my overall post.
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@FLRW
hawkings was most likely ignorant of this topic. einstein surely was... this field of research is still in its infancy and has only started taking off in the last couple decades. there's lots of themes and science and philopsphy still being developed. folks like dawkins have a superficial very primitive understanding of this topic. folks such as you, while smart, cant read this thread and claim ignorance... your fault is that you lack critical thinking. that's always the way it goes with complex topics, it's always an issue of ignorance, or stupidity.
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@RoderickSpode
there ain't much about NDEs that seem to originate from satan. the author i just posted about, looks like a solid christian. at worst, some of these teachings might challenge fundamentalist thinking, but there's usually higher ways of understanding out there, or there's just sheer doctrines and religions of man that have fundamentalists have gotten wrong. both you and tradesecret worry too much about religion, instead of truth and spirituality.
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@n8nrgim
there ain't much about NDEs that seem to originate from satan. the author i just posted about, looks like a solid christian. at worst, some of these teachings might challenge fundamentalist thinking, but there's usually higher ways of understanding out there, or there's just sheer doctrines and religions of man that have fundamentalists have gotten wrong. both you and tradesecret worry too much about religion, instead of truth and spirituality.
I haven't read the book, and as I stated, I believe an NDE experience could be an act of God (Jesus Christ).
I am deeply concerned about truth. I understand that the term religion can be justly considered negative, but it's a term that can have different meanings. It can be both negative and positive. The common definition, belief in God, a god, or deity is often used as a negative. Or when there's words written by a seer, that becomes a book, it's labeled as religion in the negative. Once something becomes labeled as religion, it often becomes a negative. People become afraid of the term, and assign it to views deemed as threatening, like intelligent design. But religion is often just a way to categorize. Like with the title of this section of the forum.
Do you feel that NDE's are random, like a hallucination might be (e.g., someone seeing an oasis in the desert), or is there a purpose for them? In other words, are they a result of a higher power, or intelligence conveying a message? Or are they something that might happen accidentally, or naturally when someone has a chemical reaction in their brain causing them to see a lake when lost in a desert, dying of thirst?
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@RoderickSpode
near death experiences philosophically offer something unique... elaborate afterlife stories, that offer common themes like tunnels life reviews light beings meeting deceaseed loved ones etc, and that are more real to the person than this life that they have no doubt is real and they no longer fear death. and they offer objective evidence that indicates an afterlife... no just a random goings on in the brain, we're talking about good probability of an afterlife. drugs, dreams, and hallucinations dont cause that in other parts of existence. all naturalistic attempts to explain NDEs fall flat with closer look. NDEs teach about loving people and God, just like christianity does. that's how we know these two schools of thought are compatiable with each other, even when other religions and skeptics on NDEs fail to offer anything worth following. buddism is just a philosphy and not a 'truth', islam talks about chopping off heads and hands and getting a bunch of virgins, obviously man made. hindu is just random. the joy and hope of the gospel of Jesus is amplified with NDEs. when it comes to theology and NDEs, it takes a careful analysis to determine if religion in the negative sense is giving us a false bag of goods, and if NDEs offer something better. jesus did say the spirit of truth will continue to reveal itself to people. i know the other side of the coin is that we shouldn't add or distort the gospel, but again it requires a careful analysis and prayer to determine the truth.
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@n8nrgim
Visions, like the one I had of Jesus Christ was very real and profound. It wasn't a hallucination. But I'm sure Joseph Smith's vision was very real and profound as well, which lead to the false religion of Mormonism. Would you agree that there's a deceptive side to visions that manifest as very real?
Do you believe that Satan exists as a creation of God that presents beliefs, doctrines, etc. that are false?
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@FLRW
In Stephen Hawking's final book, he says:“We are each free to believe what we want, and it's my view that the simplest explanation is that there is no God. No one created the universe and no one directs our fate.”He then goes on to write: “This leads me to a profound realization – there is probably no heaven and afterlife either. I think belief in an afterlife is just wishful thinking. There is no reliable evidence for it, and it flies in the face of everything we know in science.”
And a part of human weakness that has been exploited by Pastors and Priests for millennia.
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@RoderickSpode
yes i believe there can be false visions etc. even the bible says satan could masquerade as a being of light. but i dont see enough 'bad' from NDEs to throw the whole thing out. we should be cautious, i'll give you that.
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@RoderickSpode
Visions, like the one I had of Jesus Christ was very real and profound. It wasn't a hallucination. But I'm sure Joseph Smith's vision was very real and profound as well, which lead to the false religion of Mormonism. Would you agree that there's a deceptive side to visions that manifest as very real?
Why would Mormonism be false? Maybe people are misinterpreting what Mr Smith experienced.
I find many mormon beliefs quite similar to what contactees are communicating from aliens, like the idea of humans evolving up to the point of being Gods or the existence of a garden of Eden (a place where first human race lived for a time) in what is now Missouri. We have to take these beliefs as a grain of salt, of course, but we can't discard that Smith had a real contact with an alien civilization whose plan is to tame the human race.
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@IlDiavolo
The question is whether or not it's a false or deceptive message.
This should be taken into consideration whether it came from an angelic being, or even an extraterrestrial.
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@RoderickSpode
The question is whether or not it's a false or deceptive message.This should be taken into consideration whether it came from an angelic being, or even an extraterrestrial.
So, you believe in Jesus, aka the Christ, but not in Smith?
If you believe the bible is true despite all the nonsense it represents, I think it's fair to believe in Mormonism as well.
If you have to question Mormonism, then it's totally fair to question Christianity.
Why to be so selective when questioning or believing?
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@IlDiavolo
I don't think Mormonism is an issue of nonsense.
If you believe aliens will visit us from planet Y, and someone tells you they will be from planet Z, I don't think you would necessarily consider it nonsense. Just that they might be in error.
I don't know what you consider nonsense in the bible, or whether or not you think Mormonism represents nonsense as well?
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@IlDiavolo
@RoderickSpode
RoderickSpode wrote: I don't know what you consider nonsense in the bible,
Let's see.
Walking on water.
Dead men coming back to life.
Sticks turning into snakes.
Talking donkey.
Immaculate conception.
Feeding 5000 with only 5 loaves and 2 fish.
Etc Etc Etc
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@RoderickSpode
I don't know what you consider nonsense in the bible, or whether or not you think Mormonism represents nonsense as well?
The bible as it is written now doesn't make sense. If you ckeck the work of Mario Biglino, former translator of the Vatican, you'll see the church has been deceiving us since the very begining.
Many stories of the bible are nonsense, but if you put them in a context of an alien genetic project, all makes sense. Just pick a story:
1. Adam and Eve: the creation of a new human race by genetic engineering. Now it makes sense because there were already humans before them. You can find this story in many other ancient civilizations.
2. Noah's arc: Scientists confirmed there was a big deluge long time ago and it was very unlikely the existence of survivors, let alone rescuing all the animals and plants we have now with a simple wood ship. So, the most sensical explanation for life continuation in earth is that the Arc was actually a very big alien mothership that rescued the people they wanted to rescue. This story is likewise in other ancient civilizations.
3. Moses' promised land: This is very interesting because the old testament portrays a warrior God that slaughters the enemy so it's the most controversial story of the bible because of the cruelty of a supposed loving God. But if we assume it was a genetic project we can understand that these aliens just wanted this specific Moses' clan to survive and breed. It explains the ethnic cleansing they commited and the health measures "God" ordered them to follow up.
As to the mormonism, I know little about it but we have to make the same judment that we do to christianism.
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@IlDiavolo
Many stories of the bible are nonsense, but if you put them in a context of an alien genetic project, all makes sense.
With the ancient alien "god" theory in mind, I have always said that if we were to superimpose many todays sciences over many of the bible stories and miracles some would certainly make sense.
Just pick a story:1. Adam and Eve: the creation of a new human race by genetic engineering.
Genesis 2:20-23
"So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and then closed up the place with flesh. Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib[c] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man".
So, a man is anesthetized. An incision is created. Something is removed from the man. The man is stitched up and a new creation is created from that which was removed from the man to create a woman.
Sounds like genetic engineering?
2. Noah's arc: Scientists confirmed there was a big deluge long time ago and it was very unlikely the existence of survivors, let alone rescuing all the animals and plants we have now with a simple wood ship. So, the most sensical explanation for life continuation in earth is that the Arc was actually a very big alien mothership that rescued the people they wanted to rescue. This story is likewise in other ancient civilizations.
If the bible account is to be taken literally this could be referring to a seed bank of sorts? Other wise the story is a impossibility and didn't happen.
3. Moses' promised land: This is very interesting because the old testament portrays a warrior God that slaughters the enemy so it's the most controversial story of the bible because of the cruelty of a supposed loving God.But if we assume it was a genetic project we can understand that these aliens just wanted this specific Moses' clan to survive and breed. It explains the ethnic cleansing they commited and the health measures "God" ordered them to follow up.
Well the bible makes it clear that the god of the bible OT is only concerned with the welfare and prosperity of one single bloodline; that of Abraham. And Jesus supports this: Matthew 15:24 So he answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
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@Stephen
If the bible account is to be taken literally this could be referring to a seed bank of sorts? Other wise the story is a impossibility and didn't happen.
Defenitely. Some countries have seed banks today in case of any envirnomental disaster, so it's totally possible that the aliens might have their own ones in case something wrong happen to the earth.
People are not aware how advanced these aliens are. They have huge spaceships and their technology is capable of changing the earth's fate, and as a consequence our fate.
Well the bible makes it clear that the god of the bible OT is only concerned with the welfare and prosperity of one single bloodline; that of Abraham. And Jesus supports this: Matthew 15:24 So he answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
The OT is a book for Israel, not for humanity. I still don't understand why christians still consider it as part of their cult.
These aliens were preserving the genetic code of the jewish clan so they didn't allow the jews to interbreed with other clans in order to not "contaminate" the jewish genes. Measures like not to eat pork or the circumsicion were important for the correct evolution of these genetic project. The moral principles were also important which explain the cruelty of the punishment that was applied to the disobidients. These alliens were really serious about it.
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@IlDiavolo
Maybe.
Or
Maybe not.
Catch 22.
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@zedvictor4
Maybe.OrMaybe not.Catch 22.
It depends on what you know, Victor. It's not enough to see with your eyes to know something happened in a specific way. It's just a matter of logic exercise. This is what lawyers do to jail criminals, right?
I've read and watched a lot about it, and everything brings me more or less to the same idea. It could change, but thus far this is what makes sense to me.
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@IlDiavolo
I'm not suggesting that it is not a reasonable hypothesis.
Though a super-intelligence with big spaceships, might not have evolved yet...Which is also a reasonable hypothesis.
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@zedvictor4
Though a super-intelligence with big spaceships, might not have evolved yet...Which is also a reasonable hypothesis.
This is not a hypothesis, rather you are refusing to accept an explanation.
And I think it's not a matter of intelligence but knowledge. If these aliens transfer us some technological breakthroughs we'll be able to understand it for sure. For example, the way these drones work: www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4MzC2Rb6PU. Can you imagine this fucking world if we had unlimited free energy?
Maybe you prefer the biblical version. Lol.
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@IlDiavolo
The World is bombarded on a daily basis with sufficient free energy from the Sun...We just don't utilise all of it's potential..
And as I clearly stated, your hypothesis is reasonable.
The biblical version is similarly analogical, relative to intellectual development as it was 2000 or so years ago.
And my reasonable prediction/hypothesis, is that we and or our intellectual derivatives will one day be the interstellar, intergalactic super-intelligentsia in big spaceships.
Though it's seemingly a necessity of thought and intellectual development to think that a greater intelligence exists elsewhere, but this is just an idea that is not necessarily correct.
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@IlDiavolo
Can you imagine this fucking world if we had unlimited free energy?
Good point. But to my own knowledge, anyone that creates or discovers "FREE" energy is either paid off or bumped off. The new "gods" simply won't allow it, D.
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@Stephen
Indeed. If we discovered something like this the current viscious system would just fall apart.
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@IlDiavolo
Buy off failed so:
Stephen Meyer insists his brother was murdered. After all, Meyer’s invention posed an incalculable threat to billions of oil industry dollars and untold fortunes, and he’d successfully resisted succumbing to numerous buyout offers. Additionally, the inventor had warded off pressure from numerous overseas visitors and weathered persistent government spying operations. And, perhaps not so strangely, those investors who dined with the Meyer brothers on that fateful day declined to offer so much as a condolence following Meyer’s demise.
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@IlDiavolo
But if the Bible parallels alien intervention, how can it be nonsense, assuming it would be a tool of the aliens? Wouldn't it be like saying, the aliens are responsible for the claim of nonsense?
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@n8nrgim
. a smart and capable doctor writing a book like that should be sufficient to establish evidenc
Absolutely not. It's an appeal to authority and a bad one at that since I can probably dig up a doctor who doesn't believe in the afterlife and thinks he is full of shit. Arguments need to b accompanied by good premises not by titles.