Socialism correlates with higher living standards

Author: Benjamin ,

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Reece101
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would you call yourself "pro-oligarchy" or just "oligarchy-tolerant" ?

How did you arrive at those options, or are you just trying to gaslight? 

3RU7AL
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would you call yourself "pro-oligarchy" or just "oligarchy-tolerant" ?

How did you arrive at those options, or are you just trying to gaslight? 
perhaps you remember post 43

Reece101
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You didn’t quote me in full. You only responded to the second half.
3RU7AL
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it's a pretty simple yes or no question
Reece101
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No.
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You are ignoring the fact that India had a legally enforced caste system for years. Even now that it is illegal, the caste system endures in their culture.
great point

As a general commentary on the USSR, it did not have freedom of speech, religion, press, or assembly. And when freedom of speech was finally introduced in the late 1980s, the USSR fell apart shortly thereafter. You may want to think about why that is.
also a great point
CoolApe
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I think it’s good developed countries have systems they can compare themselves to. Though it doesn’t really matter if oligarchs get into power. 
If you mean oligarchs exist in any system, then I would agree.  

If I follow your logic if country A and B are developed nations and A is more socialist and has a better and cheaper healthcare system, then the more capitalist B country should adopt a similar system. 

However, the power and the extent of oligarchs in countries can be very different. If the healthcare system in a mostly capitalist country has become mostly crony, then a socialist healthcare system could be better than its current healthcare. However, this doesn't mean that a better capitalist healthcare system with fewer monopolistic legal barriers and more legal patient protection could not exist if we spent time changing laws to encourage free enterprise. 
Reece101
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If you mean oligarchs exist in any system, then I would agree.
I mean oligarchs having control over legislation. It’s antithetical to the democratic will of the people. There’s a reason many politicians avoid talking about policy when they would rather talk about culture war bullshit.

If I follow your logic if country A and B are developed nations and A is more socialist and has a better and cheaper healthcare system, then the more capitalist B country should adopt a similar system.
If it’s implemented correctly and trials go well, sure. 

However, the power and the extent of oligarchs in countries can be very different. If the healthcare system in a mostly capitalist country has become mostly crony, then a socialist healthcare system could be better than its current healthcare. However, this doesn't mean that a better capitalist healthcare system with fewer monopolistic legal barriers and more legal patient protection could not exist if we spent time changing laws to encourage free enterprise. 
When it comes to oligarchical legislative influence America is second only to Russia, Putin being the biggest oligarch. 

Which politician best represents what you stand for? Or would you try running yourself?
zedvictor4
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Ten reasonable places to live for sure.

Same hierarchical systems, but with a fairer collective mind set.

Nothing truly socialist though.


I'm perfectly happy here in the U.K.
3RU7AL
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Nothing truly socialist though.
do you think it might be fair to perhaps consider them "more" "socialist" (than the united states) ?
3RU7AL
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I mean oligarchs having control over legislation. It’s antithetical to the democratic will of the people. There’s a reason many politicians avoid talking about policy when they would rather talk about culture war bullshit.
well stated
3RU7AL
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When it comes to oligarchical legislative influence America is second only to Russia, Putin being the biggest oligarch. 
yep

Top 10 Least Corrupt Countries in the World (CPI 2021)

  1. (tie) Denmark - 88
  2. (tie) Finland - 88
  3. (tie) New Zealand - 88
  4. (tie) Norway - 85
  5. (tie) Singapore - 85
  6. (tie) Sweden - 85
  7. Switzerland - 84
  8. Netherlands - 82
  9. Luxembourg - 81
  10. Germany - 80
zedvictor4
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No....Socialism is a specific political theory. 

None of the States that you listed function in that way.....They are all a part of the global "capitalist" system.

How people look out for each other in terms of social fairness/care, is a separate issue influenced by other geographic, demographic and political factors.

Is it really fair to compare the U.S.A with Estonia, or even Germany or Canada.

Better to compare the U.S.A with Russia......Which would be your preferred destination?

I'm pretty sure I know who Estonia and Germany would prefer to have as allies, especially in terms of fairness.

sadolite
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"based upon their perceived levels of public sector corruption. " So in other words, if you can appear to not be corrupt the CPI will give you a good score. "Science"
3RU7AL
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Socialism is a specific political theory. 
i'm pretty certain there are quite a few different versions of "socialism"
3RU7AL
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"based upon their perceived levels of public sector corruption. " So in other words, if you can appear to not be corrupt the CPI will give you a good score. "Science"
in the united states it is COMMON KNOWLEDGE that a large "campaign contribution" will buy you not only "access" but can even land you an ambassadorship

sadolite
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What's your point?

CoolApe
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I would say there are about 5 different versions of socialism and more. All them have slightly different objectives, but all of them produce similar outcomes.

Fascist socialism is when political leaders have all the power and everything serves as an end for the state.
Crony socialism (crony capitalism) is when business leaders have power and amass wealth through political control and political favors.
Marxism - a system where "supposedly" all people have an equal economic class. Marx would like to see philosophers hold all the power.
Social Equality Socialism - a system where people attempt make all social groups equal by removing all perceived inequalities between them.
Democratic Socialism - the means of production owned by the social and collective group and controlled through democratic processes. 

 
zedvictor4
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I don't doubt it.

But as I regularly say.....All social systems are essential the same anyway....Based upon  hierarchical structure, and methods of governance and enforcement.

How things pan out in the real world obviously varies, but there is no State that functions solely on the basis of shared resources and social equality. 

Societies just do not develop and function in such a way.
3RU7AL
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What's your point?
well, when you said,

"based upon their perceived levels of public sector corruption. "
this is actually quite a good indication

for example,

government officials are not going to receive nearly as many "bribes" if nobody knows they are willing to accept "bribes"
3RU7AL
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All social systems are essential the same anyway
HOLACRACY
3RU7AL
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I would say there are about 5 different versions of socialism
on the scale of a single family

isn't socialism-collectivism the norm ?

aren't all forms of government essentially collectivism ?
Lemming
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Maybe a gigantic government having too much power,
Worries people more than a 'small group of humans working issues out together.

'Degrees of a same 'notion, make for different notions.
A pat on the back is seen as friendly, unless it's given with excessive force,
Yet it's 'still a hand on the back, applied with force,
Yet it's 'not essentially the same as before.
3RU7AL
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Maybe a gigantic government having too much power,
Worries people more than a 'small group of humans working issues out together.
yep
CoolApe
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isn't socialism-collectivism the norm ?
Collectivism is the norm and growing trend for modern governments but not as much for all the past. Maybe pre-constitutional America.

aren't all forms of government essentially collectivism ?
Libertarian forms of government are opposed to collectivism. Libertarians believe in maximizing the autonomy and freedoms of individuals while promoting a small and fiscally responsible government. 

Do libertarian countries exist? No can't name one. Only 1700s America came close to it.