NFL Mafia [DP2]

Author: Mharman

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Danielle
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@MisterChris
AFC South included Danielle, Oromagi, and That2.
Oromagi is confirmed town, and Danielle is a strong town read. 

That2 is heavily implicated by that logic. The fact that they have been so quick to push for a Barney lynch/OMGUS me, and the fact that their role as vanilla is suspect balance-wise doesn't help. 

I don't understand why you think this. There's no reason at all from what I can tell to think that theme split has anything to do with divisions. Why does 3 people in a division seem inherently scummy to you? At this point I think we have enough behavioral reads to go on rather than random guesses about theme (which have so far all been wrong). 
Speedrace
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@MisterChris
No. That's a more insignificant part of it actually. The primary reason is the rationale I gave to Danielle:
I don't think theme analysis is a compelling reason to lynch someone, it's just too much of a shot in the dark and unless we can confirm the theme with a flip or two (which we haven't yet), it's too much of a risk

The fact that they have been so quick to push for a Barney lynch/OMGUS me, and the fact that their role as vanilla is suspect balance-wise doesn't help. 
These are better reasons I think (I did notice what seemed to be a bit of an OMGUS), so I won't take them off the table but I still think they're town, for now I think GP is just a much better suspect
Speedrace
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@Danielle
Lol why would you need to test Wylted's reaction? His whole existence is reactive.
loll
MisterChris
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@Danielle
I don't understand why you think this. There's no reason at all from what I can tell to think that theme split has anything to do with divisions. Why does 3 people in a division seem inherently scummy to you? At this point I think we have enough behavioral reads to go on rather than random guesses about theme (which have so far all been wrong). 

Refer to my response to whiteflame above. Anyway It seems unfruitful to continue to argue this out for now... let me type up some thoughts now that Earth's role is seemingly revealed.
Greyparrot
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VTL mrchris
MisterChris
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It seems the general plan now is to lynch GP and pursue a full claim from me next DP.

It won't be particularly harmful for me to claim now, I don't think, as I don't really have a PR. My role does counterbalance GP's, however, and it legitimizes his claim a lot more I think.

I see no reason to avoid claiming this DP, because it could save us a mislynch and help redirect us to better options. 

Anyway, I am the San Francisco 49ers and I am Lynchproof (except in MYLO/LYLO situations). My justification is that I am a team known for overcoming severe player injuries. 

I am OK with being lynched this DP to sort of "semi-confirm" myself. I think it's pretty obvious how my role relates to GP's. It compliments it quite well balance-wise. 

Greyparrot
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@MisterChris
How exactly does this confirm me?
PREZ-HILTON
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That is actually suspect since my role counter balances GPs.  

Invite VTL mrchris
MisterChris
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@Greyparrot
You are hated, so you require one less vote to be lynched. That nerfs town. My role counteracts that by preventing my lynch. That buffs town. Our roles even each other out. If you design a game, you make sure that the roles compliment each other and balance out across the board, so that town is not significantly nerfed compared to the mafia, etc. etc. That way the game can be "fair." 

Basically, from a game design standpoint, it makes a lot of sense for you to be hated based on my role. 
MisterChris
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@PREZ-HILTON
Invite VTL mrchris

you can vote me, this will only confirm what I'm saying. 
Greyparrot
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@MisterChris
whatevs UNVOTE
MisterChris
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@PREZ-HILTON
That is actually suspect since my role counter balances GPs.  

It isn't inconceivable for there to be multiple town nerfs, by the way. It may also be a way to compensate for the excess of vanillas. 
Mharman
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Official Vote Count
Greyparrot (3/6) - Speedrace, Badger, Whiteflame
MisterChris (2/6) - That2, Wylted
Wylted (1/6) - Greyparrot
That2 (1/6) - MisterChris


whiteflame
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@Mharman
@MisterChris
My strategy isn't really depending on any sort of theme split. It's moreso to do with character distribution. It seems reasonable to me that with 8 divisions and 12 players, each character will be (mostly) evenly distributed across the divisions. The scum team having fake claims is precisely why a 3 player group is more suspect. The scum team chooses a fake claim, and that fake character artificially inflates certain divisions with new players. 

The fact that AFC West had no claims at all makes the theory that AFC West is scum viable. It's not provable (yet,) but it makes a lot of sense.
I really don't buy this framing. What you're doing here is focusing on mod psych in a way that I don't find persuasive. It's possible that Mharman was meticulous in his selections to ensure that he covered every division and conference semi-evenly. It's also possible (and I would say more likely) that Mharman selected teams he wanted to fill the roles he wanted and didn't really think about their distribution across divisions and conferences. If that's the case, then the distribution would be more random than your hypothesis of even distribution would suggest, and if that falls apart, then the rest of your theory does, too. I'm fine with exploring some mod psych, but this wouldn't be the first time that we've been led astray by efforts to try and determine what character claims should be in the game or, in this case, what sets of character claims should be present. It's possible that you're right, but Mharman could have been using any number of methods to determine which teams he would include in this game. Maybe part of his setup was an effort to create that even distribution. Maybe it wasn't. I'm not seeing a reason why Mharman would necessarily aim to do that, so no, I'm not on the same page as you on this one. It makes sense if and only if we assume a lot about how this game was structured.

It seems the general plan now is to lynch GP and pursue a full claim from me next DP.

It won't be particularly harmful for me to claim now, I don't think, as I don't really have a PR. My role does counterbalance GP's, however, and it legitimizes his claim a lot more I think.

I see no reason to avoid claiming this DP, because it could save us a mislynch and help redirect us to better options. 

Anyway, I am the San Francisco 49ers and I am Lynchproof (except in MYLO/LYLO situations). My justification is that I am a team known for overcoming severe player injuries. 

I am OK with being lynched this DP to sort of "semi-confirm" myself. I think it's pretty obvious how my role relates to GP's. It compliments it quite well balance-wise. 
I'll start with the obvious: if you're lynchproof, at base, we should be testing that. That being said, before we go lynching you to test it:

Mharman, would lynching someone who is lynchproof end the DP?

The fact that no one has asked that yet, including you, is pretty suspect to me since it could easily have cost us a lynch.

That being said, I also don't buy this notion that we need roles to balance each other out. It's more mod psych and, while it can make some sense in some instances (particularly with role madness games), I'd hesitate to apply it more broadly. We have two known Vanillas in the game. If we buy That2's claim, that's 3 Vanillas so far, and I highly doubt that anyone else who is Vanilla would claim in response to your last major post where you asked "Is anyone else vanilla?" since that would necessarily reduce the pool of possible PRs for scum while providing town little to no useful information. Town could be populated by 4 or 5 Vanillas for all we know, which makes it all the more surprising that there is a Hated in this game, which is a negative utility Vanilla. Having a lynchproof makes more sense in a context where town has fewer PRs than does a Hated unless we assume a scum team with scant little in the way of PRs, though we "know" that they at least have an RB if we believe Earth's claim. In a game where there are a ton of town Vanillas, balancing out a lynchproof seems entirely unnecessary.
whiteflame
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Also, unvote for now. Given this new information from MC, I'd prefer to avoid a sudden lynch on GP before we test it, assuming that it does not end the DP to do so.
MisterChris
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@whiteflame
Maybe part of his setup was an effort to create that even distribution. Maybe it wasn't. 
I acknowledge this weakness in my hypothesis, and I have before (back in DP1 somewhere).

I think you're mistaking my rationale for being surety. I'm not certain of this at all. It simply seems to be the best point of exploration out of all other options to me.

And my rationalization does not translate to me being unwilling to pursue other leads. I just have not been presented any that compel me to abandon this one.
 
Mharman, would lynching someone who is lynchproof end the DP?

The fact that no one has asked that yet, including you, is pretty suspect to me since it could easily have cost us a lynch.
I was operating under the assumption that that was a given. My role PM does not specify, but I thought this was how it functioned, because I seem to remember that being how it functioned in the past. 

This is why I stated I was "OK with being confirmed." I'm allowing town to decide, knowing that our one shot for this DP could also be used elsewhere. You're also ignoring the value of having that confirmation. It's not as if confirming me is a "waste of a lynch."

That being said, I also don't buy this notion that we need roles to balance each other out.
What? This is basic game design. Any good mafia game designer is going to try to balance roles as much as possible on both sides to ensure fair play. 

If we buy That2's claim, that's 3 Vanillas so far, and I highly doubt that anyone else who is Vanilla would claim in response to your last major post where you asked "Is anyone else vanilla?" since that would necessarily reduce the pool of possible PRs for scum while providing town little to no useful information. Town could be populated by 4 or 5 Vanillas for all we know, which makes it all the more surprising that there is a Hated in this game, which is a negative utility Vanilla. Having a lynchproof makes more sense in a context where town has fewer PRs than does a Hated unless we assume a scum team with scant little in the way of PRs, though we "know" that they at least have an RB if we believe Earth's claim. In a game where there are a ton of town Vanillas, balancing out a lynchproof seems entirely unnecessary.
There is literally no world in a game (even non-role madness) that employed the joint efforts of Lunatic & Mharman that a 12 player game would have 4-5 vanillas. This is why I requested excess vanillas to claim. Having 3 is already a good amount. If extra vanillas came forward, that would implicate that some of those vanilla claims are scum. We would have a decent springboard to investigate further.

Is this your way of claiming vanilla? I don't see why you are making the assumption town is so weak that basic balancing mechanics aren't needed. 


Mharman
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@whiteflame
Mharman, would lynching someone who is lynchproof end the DP?
If a lynchproof is in one of my games and reaches all votes needed to lynch, the Day Phase will not end. I will only end a Day Phase if time runs out or a lynch occurs. Since a lynchproof cannot be lynched, no day phase can be ended that way.
Mharman
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Official Vote Count
Greyparrot (2/6) - Speedrace, Badger
MisterChris (2/6) - That2, Wylted
Wylted (1/6) - Greyparrot
That2 (1/6) - MisterChris

PREZ-HILTON
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So it's harmless to test this theory
badger
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I'm just back home and it's late and I'm not reading all of this but lynchproof definitely lends credence to the idea of a hated townie in the game. 
badger
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If GP is town I am lost tbh at this stage. 
Greyparrot
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@badger
Bruh I am town.
Greyparrot
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@badger
In what world do you think Hated scum would out that role on DP1?
badger
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I give up and I want to see the flip tbh. I'm going to bed. 
badger
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@Greyparrot
This is the first time I've seen you try to actually play the game.
badger
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unvote
Greyparrot
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@badger
I still don't trust Wylted.
PREZ-HILTON
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@Greyparrot
Bro, I'm white. 
SirAnonymous
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@Mharman
Sorry for my inactivity today. I had an unexpected item appear on my schedule.

First things first: if testing MC's lynchproof doesn't end the DP, as Mharman just confirmed, then we should absolutely test that. VTL Chris
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@badger
You mentioned that Earth breadcrumbed his role. Where did he do that? I'm curious to see what it was.