January 6th Hearings

Author: Double_R

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I can tell you why the police officers sat for 20 minutes — bureaucrat + checks/balances. Something that could’ve been before the tragedy even occurred. Imagine if the cop was allowed to shoot the shooter at Uvalde before the kids were killed. What did he have to do? Ask his boss. 

One thing you hear pundits say all the time is that Congress can walk and chew gum at the same time. Any reasonable person knows if you spend almost all your time and energy chewing gum, it makes a seemingly simple task like walking or defending the capitol next to impossible.
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@coal
Characterizing the individuals who participated in the events of January 6th as a "mob" or "rioters" is inherently biased advocacy.
Please explain how they failed to meet the literal definition of a mob, or explain how calling something what it means by definition amounts to "biased advocacy"

Mob: a large and disorderly crowd of people especially  one bent on riotous or destructive action

I'll wait.

Characterizing those individuals' actions as "smashing windows and climbing in" or "ploughing through police barricades surrounding the capitol" is not inconsistent with what I said above.
You're claim was that there was no evidence a mob attacked the Capitol. Please explain how a large crowd of people bent on riotus or destructive action beating their way through police officers (140 of them were injured) to break into the US Capitol many of which ended up vandalizing the place and did so while chanting that they were there to hang the Vice President... Does not qualify as an attack.

I'll wait for that one too.

The footage I linked from January 6th clearly indicates that after 2:34 PM, police let the protesters in through the upper west terrace doors. Nothing in that video suggests that police were "overwhelmed" or "overran."...

Based on your timeline, these people should have been stampeding across police barricades or have already done so on their way to overwhelming the police in something like a storming of the bastille.  And is that what you see, here? 
First of all, it appears you didn't read the timeline. Congress was evacuated from the Capitol at 2:24pm, by that point the barricades had been breached for almost an hour and the Capitol building itself for almost 30 minutes.

There is nothing inconsistent about the narrative and your video. By this point Capitol police had lost all control, the idea that we have to see the same officers getting beaten up before opening the doors is absurd. If control had been lost then except for some instances (like rioters attempting to gain access to the bunkers where congress took shelter) any force at that point would have been nothing but provocation which would have ended up with more people hurt or killed. This is why we see in some of these videos trespassers being told by Capitol police their not supposed to be there without trying to arrest or detail them.

This is common sense.

These witnesses are making accusations against people who have no opportunity at all to cross examine them. 
Bullshit. Every individual who had involvement in the events the committee is investigating has been invited to testify, many of them subpoenaed. It turns out the only individuals willing to testify under oath are the ones whose story is unfavorable towards the nonsense you are peddling. At some point you should be asking why that is, but you won't.

Why was that crowd of people riled up by instigators who were almost certainly plants by federal law enforcement?
So now we've gone full tin foil hat. Ok. Maybe Info Wars can answer your questions.
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@Greyparrot
So in your eyes, are the J6 hearings to get Trump or is it to help develop plans to defend the capitol in the future? Because outside of partisan theatrics, it seems they are objectively doing neither.
The committee has always been focused on holding those responsible for this attack accountable. And Trump was the obvious target from the start, that's why the republican leaders in both chambers stood on the floor and have a speech about Trump's culpability that evening. It's also why everyone in Trump's orbit, including all 3 prime time Fox News hosts pleaded with Mark Meadows to tell Trump to put a stop to it.

The fact that we know who was responsible before the investigation took place does nothing to discredit the investigation. If that we're the case we'd have quite a few more murderers on the streets.
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The fact that we know who was responsible before the investigation took place does nothing to discredit the investigation.

Confirmation bias plus everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty. Even the orangeman.

 If that we're the case we'd have quite a few more murderers on the streets.
Like every state run by one party for 50 years?
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 If that we're the case we'd have quite a few more murderers on the streets.

Like every state run by one party for 50 years?
Probably is what happens when prosecutors presume people are innocent or guilty based on skin color or some other meaningless bias.
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It’s never a good idea to willingly testify in front of a committee that already has a guilty verdict on you. Any lawyer will tell you that even if you’re innocent
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@Double_R
The committee has always been focused on holding those responsible for this attack accountable.
why not simply open a criminal investigation ?

what exactly do you consider a "best case scenario" outcome ?
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@ILikePie5
Giving a speech in DC is a threat? Give me a break. You can blame Trump all you want lol, but he’s not responsible for the actions of the lunatics who were incited by people who still haven’t been charged and police who let the people in (something you have yet to address in responses to me and Coal).
Whether a speech is a threat depends on what is said in the speech. You understand this even though you pretend you don't. What also matters just as much is the context in which that speech was given. It never ceases to amaze me how Trump defenders ignore that at all costs.

Once again, the speech he gave was the culmination of a months long effort to convince the public of his complete bullshit lie that the election was stolen, then rile them up and invite them all to the Capitol to set them loose. What were talking about is the entire picture, not any one action. I've made this point repeatedly in this thread, why has that not sunk in? What is so difficult about this?

Are you familiar with money laundering? That's when one uses a business transaction to hide the true nature of a payment. Proving the crime requires multiple elements committed at multiple points. It's only when you put all of the elements together that you establish a crime. That's what this is. You are not dense enough to not understand this concept, you either just don't want to get it or you do and are pretending you don't.

Another example of you pretending not to understand basic concepts you no doubt understand is your claim that he cannot he held responsible for the actions of others. It's a literal legal term and people get prosecuted for it all the time;

Incitement
the action of provoking unlawful behavior or urging someone to behave unlawfully.
"this amounted to an incitement to commit murder"
- Google

And as far as your silly little claim regarding federal plants rallying people up, I haven't addressed that because it's just plain stupid. Provide evidence and state what you're claiming clearly and I will happily address.

You’re acting like Trump is some god who can do whatever he wants, which is absurd
Wow.

I'm acting like Trump is the President, as in the person running the federal government. As in the person responsible for protecting the nation.

You can't be serious.
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@Double_R
Are you familiar with money laundering? That's when one uses a business transaction to hide the true nature of a payment. 
Like when Biden sells 1 million barrels of tax payed SR oil to China via a company his son works in? Also Ukraine?

the action of provoking unlawful behavior
Like peacefully intimidating a judge at his house? Why isn't Biden in jail for this?

the person running the federal government
You can't be serious.
The federal government is way too bloated for any one man to run. Time to burn some of it off like they do to prevent forest fires.
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the person running the federal government
Lol, Trump was run off by the federal government. Swamp- 1 Trump - 0
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@Double_R
Whether a speech is a threat depends on what is said in the speech. You understand this even though you pretend you don't. What also matters just as much is the context in which that speech was given. It never ceases to amaze me how Trump defenders ignore that at all costs.
Brandenburg v Ohio has the rules on what classifies as incitement. It’s a two part test. I suggest you read up on it. No where did Trump tell people to do something illegal.

The Court held that the government cannot punish inflammatory speech unless that speech is "directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action"

Once again, the speech he gave was the culmination of a months long effort to convince the public of his complete bullshit lie that the election was stolen, then rile them up and invite them all to the Capitol to set them loose. Whatwere talking about is the entire picture, not any oneaction. I've made this point repeatedly in this thread, why has that not sunk in? What is so difficult about this?
It’s not a lie that the election was stolen. Democratic executives in key states purposely rewrote the rules without the permission of their state legislatures, which in case you didn’t know is illegal. Wisconsin Supreme Court just said the drop boxes were illegal. It’s not illegal to say the election was stolen either way. I can I think the election was stolen. It’s an opinion, which in this case is backed by some fact. 

Are you familiar with money laundering? That's when one uses a business transaction to hide the true nature of a payment. Proving the crime requires multiple elements committed at multiple points. It's only when you put all of the elements together that you establish a crime. That's what this is. You are not dense enough to not understand this concept, you either just don't want to get it or you do and are pretending you don't.
In the mean time you get put in solitary confinement right? If you don’t know the judicial process, there’s an indictment that happens. You can’t be held for more than a few days without being charged with a crime. It’s been at least a year and not one person has been charged with insurrection. Why? You claim it’s obvious that this was an insurrection, not me. So why haven’t they been charged with it. Simple question really.

Another example of you pretending not to understand basic concepts you no doubt understand is your claim that he cannot he held responsible for the actions of others. It's a literal legal term and people get prosecuted for it all the time;

Incitement
the action of provoking unlawful behavior or urging someone to behave unlawfully.
"this amounted to an incitement to commit murder"
- Google

And as far as your silly little claim regarding federal plants rallying people up, I haven't addressed that because it's just plain stupid. Provide evidence and state what you're claiming clearly and I will happily address.
Plain stupid when the FBI refuses to say whether Ray Epps was a federal informer who purposefully incited people to enter the Capitol. An individual who still has not been charged btw. Incitement, the standards are Brandenburg v Ohio. Insurrection is a whole other ballgame.

Wow.

I'm acting like Trump is the President, as in the person running the federal government. As in the person responsible for protecting the nation.

You can't be serious.
You’re acting like Trump is a fascist dictator who isn’t beholden to checks and balances that are prescribed under the Constitution. Which is it lol
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@ILikePie5
You can’t be held for more than a few days without being charged with a crime.
Kalief Browder (May 25, 1993 – June 6, 2015) was an African American youth from The Bronx, New York, who was held at the Rikers Island jail complex, without trial, between 2010 and 2013 for allegedly stealing a backpack containing valuables. During his imprisonment, Browder was in solitary confinement for 700 days. [**]
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@3RU7AL
Violating probation is a crime and you can be jailed for it. Thanks for the cool DINDU story link.
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On January 28, 2011, 258 days after his arrest, Browder appeared in court. The prosecution requested a deferment of proceedings. On June 23, 2011, Browder's record showed: "the People not ready, request one week; August 24, 2011, the People not ready, request one day; November 4, 2011, the People not ready, prosecutor on trial, request two weeks; and December 2, 2011, prosecutor on trial, request January 3, 2012."[6]

After refusing multiple plea-deals

Including "plead guilty for immediate release" - - which he refused because he was innocent of the charges

On September 23, 2012, a video was recorded showing Browder in handcuffs being assaulted by guards.[8]
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The poor DINDU.
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You can’t be held for more than a few days without being charged with a crime (that you actually committed).
also not true
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"he was a good boy", " aspiring rapper", "he was a loving father of 12", "he had ambitions for playing in the NFL and loved video games"
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@Greyparrot
The fact that we know who was responsible before the investigation took place does nothing to discredit the investigation.
Confirmation bias plus everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty. Even the orangeman.
This is a congressional hearing, not a criminal trial. Innocent until proven guilty are instructions for the jury. It's not reasonable in any sense to apply this to the investigators, if they don't presume anything they have nothing to investigate.

Probably is what happens when prosecutors presume people are innocent or guilty based on skin color or some other meaningless bias.
Presuming one's guilt based on skin color and presuming one's guilt based on the fact that the crime was mostly committed in real time in front of the entire world are two completely different things.
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@Greyparrot
Are you familiar with money laundering? That's when one uses a business transaction to hide the true nature of a payment. 
Like when Biden sells 1 million barrels of tax payed SR oil to China via a company his son works in? Also Ukraine?

the action of provoking unlawful behavior
Like peacefully intimidating a judge at his house? Why isn't Biden in jail for this?

the person running the federal government
You can't be serious.
The federal government is way too bloated for any one man to run. Time to burn some of it off like they do to prevent forest fires.
More whataboutisms. Why am I not surprised?
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@Double_R
More whataboutisms. Why am I not surprised?

Cause Nov is going to be a much more fun and happier month than January? :D
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This is a congressional hearing, not a criminal trial
So there's no bad guy either. Confirmation bias theatre is boring AF.
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@ILikePie5
No where did Trump tell people to do something illegal.
That's a really nice family you got there, would be a shame if something were to happen to them.

The Court held that the government cannot punish inflammatory speech unless that speech is "directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action"
That's literally what these hearings are about.

I can I think the election was stolen. It’s an opinion, which in this case is backed by some fact. 
And I can tell you the moon is made of cheese, which is my opinion and based on some fact. Turns out that whenever you are free to make up definitions you get to say whatever you want.

Rewriting the rules on voting in order to account for the conditions created by a pandemic is not only not "stealing an election", it's one of three most basic reasonabilities a government/legislature has. The fact that you disagree with those rules does not change that.

No one changed to rules to say that black people get to vote twice, or that illegals get to vote. All they did was make voting more convenient for people who feared COVID and to help prevent public spread. To call that "stealing an election" is ridiculous. If the drop boxes weren't there those voters would have just voted elsewhere. And if your argument is that many of them wouldn't have voted at all then you're literally arguing that the election was stolen because republicans were not allowed to stop enough democratic voters from voting. That's beyond absurd.

If you don’t know the judicial process...
We're not talking about the judicial process. This is a Congressional hearing. The topic in this thread is about what you, as a Trump supporter, think about the actual evidence of the case. You know, the thing you have completely avoided discussing?

I don't care about your legal ducks and dodges, do you have an actual opinion on the reasonableness of the committee's findings based on the evidence they have presented?

Plain stupid when the FBI refuses to say whether Ray Epps was a federal informer who purposefully incited people to enter the Capitol.
The Pentagon refuses to release the footage of flight 77. Let's all march to demand they tell us what they're hiding.

Anyone can insinuate conspiracy garbage behind the veil of just asking questions. Make a claim and support your claim, then I will be happy to address.

You’re acting like Trump is a fascist dictator who isn’t beholden to checks and balances that are prescribed under the Constitution. Which is it lol
When the US president is a democrat they're responsible for literally everything, including globally high gas prices and another country on the other side of the world invading it's neighbor. But when they're a republican they're not even responsible for the federal government's response to the US Capitol being overrun by mob rioters.

Your partisan hackery is showing.
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@Greyparrot
More whataboutisms. Why am I not surprised?
Cause Nov is going to be a much more fun and happier month than January? 
More like, because you don't have an actual argument.
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@Double_R
More like, because you don't have an actual argument.
What is it to argue? it's a political theatric show that objectively got no traction. 88% of people think we are on the wrong track. 26% of Democrats do NOT want Biden to run again. Cheney and everyone else on the Jan6 commission including Pelosi are lame ducks.

5% of all voters think it's an important issue for the 2022 elections. Nobody cares but the radical orangemanbads.

If you wanna argue that the future of America is better off with the Orangemanbads remaining in political power, you haven't made that wildly unpopular argument anywhere in this thread. You also haven't made any arguments as to why the Orangemanbads are objectively the most qualified to protect our democratic institutions. 
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@Double_R
That's a really nice family you got there, would be a shame if something were to happen to them.
And you somehow can get in his head to determine there’s ill intent? There is more than one way to interpret that statement, which is basically he said she said. You’re going to need something more concrete than that lol.

That's literally what these hearings are about.
So where’s the quote where Trump said storm the Capitol and kill Pence. I’ll wait. Because according to the Court, that’s what he needs to do.

And I can tell you the moon is made of cheese, which is my opinion and based on some fact. Turns out that whenever you are free to make up definitions you get to say whatever you want.
Are you arguing that Wisconsin Executives acted in a Constitutional manner during the 2020 election? The Supreme Court of Wisconsin would beg to differ. You run an election illegally, the result is obviously…wait for it, illegal.

Rewriting the rules on voting in order to account for the conditions created by a pandemic is not only not "stealing an election", it's one of three most basic reasonabilities a government/legislature has. The fact that you disagree with those rules does not change that.
This makes absolutely no sense. The Constitution and laws of Wisconsin did not give Executive Officials in the State Board the right to create drop boxes. The Wisconsin Legislature never passed a bill allowing drop boxes, hence it’s illegal. You’re there one disagreeing with the rules here when the highest court in WI literally ruled it was illegal and a usurpation of the authority of the legislature. Executives don’t make laws, the legislature does.

No one changed to rules to say that black people get to vote twice, or that illegals get to vote. All they did was make voting more convenient for people who feared COVID and to help prevent public spread.
Which does not make the use of drop boxes legal. If you want to change the law, the legislature must pass it and the Governor must sign it. That’s how checks and balances work, or do you believe in fascist power of Governor Evers?

To call that "stealing an election" is ridiculous. If the drop boxes weren't there those voters would have just voted elsewhere.
You and I both know that’s not true lol. How do we know? Because above you mentioned convenience above. More votes when it’s convenient or inconvenient?

And if your argument is that many of them wouldn't have voted at all then you're literally arguing that the election was stolen because republicans were not allowed to stop enough democratic voters from voting. That's beyond absurd.
Oh no, I’m all for them voting. But it’s a same you think executives have the authority to create their own laws to abide by. A person who wants to vote will vote anyway. The issue of whether dropboxes should be legal is a whole different issue. The fact here is they were illegal and the executives did them anyways in violation of the law. Period. Full stop.

We're not talking about the judicial process. This is a Congressional hearing. The topic in this thread is about what you, as a Trump supporter, think about the actual evidence of the case. You know, the thing you have completely avoided discussing?
Oh you mean the evidence you or the committee has failed to provide where Trump directly told the people to storm the Capitol and kill Pence? Impeachment already failed my man. All you have left is a criminal trial and that is governed by Brandenburg v Ohio.

I don't care about your legal ducks and dodges, do you have an actual opinion on the reasonableness of the committee's findings based on the evidence they have presented?
Yes. A criminal case of Donald Trump, which is all the committee can seek at this point would fail based on the facets provided under Brandenburg v Ohio. It really says a lot though that you don’t care about the legal nuances.

The Pentagon refuses to release the footage of flight 77. Let's all march to demand they tell us what they're hiding.
I’m all for it. I’m all for lobbying the government to tell us everything about JFK assassination and aliens. What’s funny is that the FBI refuses to provide material information that could prove that people were ordered to incite people by the government itself. I think that’s relevant to finding out what happened. Don’t you? Ofc you don’t because you’ve blinded yourself to Orangman bad.

Anyone can insinuate conspiracy garbage behind the veil of just asking questions. Make a claim and support your claim, then I will be happy to address.
Ray Epps was a fed who incited the crowd and cause people to break into the Capitol. My support? He hasn’t been charged with anything while the other people have.

When the US president is a democrat they're responsible for literally everything, including globally high gas prices and another country on the other side of the world invading it's neighbor.
I would be more than happy to learn which checks and balances prevent the President from not approving pipelines. I would also like to know what prevents the President from giving oil from the strategic reserve to the China. 

In case you haven’t gotten it yet, this is a false equivalency fallacy. I provided an example of checks and balances. Show me the checks and balances that have forced Biden to allow the price increases. I could name 5 situations where he pen cause gas price increases.

But when they're a republican they're not even responsible for the federal government's response to the US Capitol being overrun by mob rioters.
Cause the District of Columbia is within the jurisdiction of Congress and through it the Mayor of DC., not the President. All of this is in the Constitution.

Your partisan hackery is showing.
You resort to false equivalency fallacies to somehow prove I’m being partisan, when it’s your sides advocacy of the Green New Deal and Medicare for All that costs trillions which are contributing to prices increases for gasoline.

If we had your way, the Democrats would accuse Trump of occupying the Capitol with troops and forcibly stealing the election. Checks and balances exist to protect both sides. Trump already delegated the power to bring the NG to his SecDef. The delay came because of logistical issues. That’s what Chris Millers testimony said, which surprisingly hasn’t been aired on the committee. I wonder why?
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 if they don't presume anything they have nothing to investigate.
The only thing they should be presuming is that someone failed to protect Democracy. Someone in charge of setting up the security for the Capitol.

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It’s obvious he supports fascistic usurpation of power. Whether it’s the Governor of Wisconsin and his usurpation of the Wisconsin’s legislatures authority to create drop boxes or Donald Trump and the Executive Branch being forced to wait for a request from Congress or the Mayor of DC.
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which is basically he said she said. 
Sounds much like that Schiff rant where he made up a story about what Trump said in a partisan hearing. Remember Orangemanbad storytime with Schiff?
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@ILikePie5
It’s obvious he supports fascistic usurpation of power.
it's a wildly unpopular position lol. Enjoy being a fringe edgelord I guess?
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@Double_R
I'll wait.
It's unclear what you thought you'd accomplish here.   I'm going to set this out in really simple terms:  just because you can use a word to characterize something, doesn't mean you're not engaged in biased advocacy in choosing that word.  Do you understand the difference between "bias" or "advocacy," and falling within the scope of a "definition"?  The issue raised was whether your use of the most inflammatory language you possibly could come up with, in fact, fairly described what happened.  Do you somehow fail to understand that?  

Congress was evacuated from the Capitol at 2:24pm, by that point the barricades had been breached for almost an hour and the Capitol building itself for almost 30 minutes.
Accusations about what I did or didn't read do not change the implausibility of the January 6th committee's alleged "timeline," which was the entire point of why I linked the time-stamped video.  

If at 2:24, as you claim, a crisis had manifested to such an extent that congressional evacuation was required, would ten minutes later cops be calmly waiving people through the door as if nothing was the matter?  I think not. 

This is common sense.  

These witnesses are making accusations against people who have no opportunity at all to cross examine them. 
Bullshit. Every individual who had involvement in the events the committee is investigating has been invited to testify, many of them subpoenaed. It turns out the only individuals willing to testify under oath are the ones whose story is unfavorable towards the nonsense you are peddling. At some point you should be asking why that is, but you won't.
Being invited or compelled under duress (read: subpoenaed) to testify is not even remotely close to the same thing as having an opportunity to cross examine a witness who is testifying.  It is clear these basic procedural matters are something you're not familiar with, yet you had the audacity to respond with a declaration of "Bullshit!" 

You had no idea what you were talking about and didn't even know enough about the process to know that you didn't know what you were talking about.

Remarkable.  Particularly in view of your other obnoxiousness. 

I continue to show incredible restraint in the face of unrelenting stupidity.