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@ILikePie5
You forgot to auto-Like GP's posts.
AFRIKA FIRST
Posts
Total:
60
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@oromagi
I said no nation is free of corruption.
no, no you did not
you said, in [POST#10]
What nation is free from corruption? White supremacist dictatorships like Putin's codify their corruption. Democracies check corruption with renewed opportunities to reform. Ukraine after voting in Zelensky is objectively less corrupt than any point since independence. That is why Russia wants Zelensky dead- a democratic and free Ukraine- one that charges Russia free market prices for grain and free market rents for pipelines is destructive to Putin's supremacy.
"why did you lie?"
You disagreed, relying on the ITCPI without citation or understanding of what data informs that index.
no, no i did not
you said,
What nation is free from corruption?
and then i said,
Singapore has again made it to the top ranks of the least corrupt countries in the world based on a global survey released annually.The Republic along with Finland, Switzerland and Sweden scored 85 points each, tying for third place in the 2020 Corruption Perceptions Index released by the global anti-graft movement, Transparency International (TI), on Thursday (Jan 28).Denmark and New Zealand earned 88 points each to tie for top spot among the 180 countries and territories surveyed. [**]
"why did you lie?"
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@3RU7AL
THIRD REQUEST:
-->@3RU7AL
Please answer this question as directly as you are able:
Are you saying that foreign aid should not buy foreign influence?
Why are you afraid to answer this fairly simple question?
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@3RU7AL
What nation is free from corruption? White supremacist dictatorships like Putin's codify their corruption. Democracies check corruption with renewed opportunities to reform. Ukraine after voting in Zelensky is objectively less corrupt than any point since independence. That is why Russia wants Zelensky dead- a democratic and free Ukraine- one that charges Russia free market prices for grain and free market rents for pipelines is destructive to Putin's supremacy."why did you lie?"
Gotem
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@3RU7AL
"why did you lie?"
I guess you don't understand how rhetorical questions work.
Wikipedia:
A rhetorical question may be intended as a challenge. The question is often difficult or impossible to answer. In the example, What have the Romans ever done for us? (Monty Python's Life of Brian) the question functions as a negative assertion. It is intended to mean The Romans have never done anything for us!.
Identically, "What nation is free from corruption? " is impossible to answer since there are none. Any reply with examples is inherently a rebuttal of that assertion, so replying "Singapore, etc" to that challenge is to refute the assertion that answer is impossible, quite different from your latter claim of "some nations less corrupt."
"What nation is free from corruption? " is a more sophisticated way of asserting as fact that no nation is free from corruption.
No offense intended but as a serious inquiry: is English your native language?
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@3RU7AL
Democracies check corruption with renewed opportunities to reform.
Russia is a Democracy. So is Venezuela. Claims to say a "rhetorical question" then answers with a false premise.
Resorts to Ad Homs when called out.
Guy is a walking bag of lies.
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@oromagi
Are you saying that foreign aid should not buy foreign influence?
is that a "rhetorical question" ?
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@3RU7AL
-->@oromagiAre you saying that foreign aid should not buy foreign influence?is that a "rhetorical question" ?
Again, you make it clear don't understand how rhetorical questions work.
Honestly, I don't understand your hesitancy on a basic yes or no question that most people have resolved in their mind. I don't think its crazy to argue foreign aid should be treated like charitable giving but I do think it is naïve and wastes a powerful tool that can prevent greater expenses and even violence down the road.
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@oromagi
Are you saying that foreign aid should not buy foreign influence?is that a "rhetorical question" ?Again, you make it clear don't understand how rhetorical questions work.Honestly, I don't understand your hesitancy on a basic yes or no question that most people have resolved in their mind. I don't think its crazy to argue foreign aid should be treated like charitable giving but I do think it is naïve and wastes a powerful tool that can prevent greater expenses and even violence down the road.
if i told you i go once a week and give money to homeless people, you'd probably think that was a "good thing"
if i told you i go once a week and give money to homeless people, and gently suggest to them that they vote for my good friend who is running for city government, you'd probably think that was "ok"
if i told you i go once a week and give money to homeless people, and gently suggest to them that they vote for my good friend who is running for city government, and additionally, i gently suggest that if they don't show me their voter registration and meet me at the polling place on election day, i might not have the budget to continue giving them money once a week, you'd probably think that was "transactional"
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@3RU7AL
if i told you i go once a week and give money to homeless people, you'd probably think that was a "good thing"if i told you i go once a week and give money to homeless people, and gently suggest to them that they vote for my good friend who is running for city government, you'd probably think that was "ok"if i told you i go once a week and give money to homeless people, and gently suggest to them that they vote for my good friend who is running for city government, and additionally, i gently suggest that if they don't show me their voter registration and meet me at the polling place on election day, i might not have the budget to continue giving them money once a week, you'd probably think that was "transactional"
All of these examples are transactional. Giving away a little money is usually a pretty cheap price to pay for feeling good about yourself.
Let's be careful about comparing underdeveloped nations to homeless people- by definition, any government managing to stay in power has powerful collective intelligence, agency, defensive capability, influence in ways that are totally not comparable to the mentally ill and addicted people left to wander the streets without shelter.
Still, your example reminds me of Congressman Charlie Wilson's famous dog story-
"According to Wilson himself, he first entered politics as a teenager by running a campaign against his next-door neighbor, city council incumbent Charles Hazard. When Wilson was thirteen years old, his fourteen-year-old dog entered Hazard's yard. Hazard retaliated by mixing crushed glass into the dog's food, causing fatal internal bleeding. Following this incident, Wilson obtained a driver's permit and drove ninety-six voters to the polls in his family's two-door Chevrolet. As patrons left the car, Wilson told each of them that he didn't want to influence their vote, but that the incumbent Hazard had purposely killed his dog. After Hazard was defeated by a margin of 16 votes, Wilson went to his house to tell him that his black constituents voted to defeat him, and he "shouldn't poison any more dogs." Wilson cited this as "the day [he] fell in love with America."
Was Wilson wrong in this story? I don't think so. Do you?
Now, extend the example as a metaphor for our consideration- Europe is Wilson, Ukraine the dog (with apologies), Putin is Hazard and African nations the voters. I think winning a war by spending some money, spreading some influence is far more ethical (and quintessentially American) then head-to-head slaughter that drags out for years.
>@3RU7ALDemocracies check corruption with renewed opportunities to reform.Russia is a Democracy. So is Venezuela. Claims to say a "rhetorical question" then answers with a false premise.Resorts to Ad Homs when called out.Guy is a walking bag of lies.
Remember that this guy obsessively replying to every fucking post I make in every fucking forum has a restraining order against me, is blocking me. What kind of cowardly cunt stalks a debate site all day every day constantly trolling but also desperately avoiding any kind of actual debate? I wonder what mental illness compels this ridiculous chickenshit to talk about me all day, every day but keeps him totally terrified of actually talking to me about anything ever. Do his masters beat him when he gets proven wrong? Does his hitler 'stached mother make him him wear his diapers overlong? Why is greyparrot such a fearful little rat of a man and what manner of rhetorical strychnine might ever put that yellow-bellied bitch down?
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@3RU7AL
Noam Chomsky just came out and vilified the tyrannical USA administration for censoring RT.
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@Greyparrot
Nobody and know government is perfect --without corruption--- OGParrot, and you top the list of least perfect bodies.
The truth is in the Meta-space mind/intellect/concepts and most often steered by the individuals Meta-space ego
..." How much of a problem is corruption in Ukraine?
Analysts
say that Ukraine has long suffered from systemic corruption but that
Russia, which often weaponises the issue, is in no position to judge. "..
...." Rep. Jason Crow, a Colorado Democrat who sits on the House Armed
Services and Intelligence committees, said he had seen no evidence to
support allegations that Zelenskyy's inner circle was trying to help
Russia. But as the war continues, part of the long-term American
strategy in Ukraine will have to include addressing waste and
mismanagement of resources, he said.
.........."There is no war in the
history of the world that is immune from corruption and people trying to
take advantage of it," Crow said. "If there are concerns raised, we
will address them.".....
.....“The very fact that Russia had to resort to” military invasions of
Ukraine in 2014 and more massively this year “is testament to the fact
that Ukraine had the capacity to resist” the Kremlin’s efforts to
control the country through corrupt officials and business,
Tkeshelashvili said. The significant, if still incomplete, reforms that
were compelled in Ukraine by its grassroots pro-democracy movements were
enough to disrupt Putin’s control-via-corruption strategy and sustain
Ukraine’s movement toward a Europe-oriented democracy, she said.....
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@oromagi
The United States of Gay is doing just that oro
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@Dr.Franklin
->@oromagiThe United States of Gay is doing just that oro
Well, that's a lie. 3RU7AL has essentially conceded his OP claims by changing his claim from "aid has now been stripped" to mere "implication" and then again to "just a non-factual extension meant as an ice-breaker."
As I have already shown, the US gave $488 million in drought relief to Ethiopia just this week in spite of Ethiopian resistance to US diplomatic pressure on Ukraine, directly disproving your claim.
Don't know how you missed this.
Would you care to make a counter-argument, or just continue as usual to wallow in your willfully woefully malinformed condition?
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@oromagi
Are you saying that the US is not pressuring countries to condemn the russian invasion
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@Dr.Franklin
-->@oromagiAre you saying that the US is not pressuring countries to condemn the russian invasion
If you would only read what I have already posted to this forum, you will have your answer.
So, yes. The aid doesn't matter, the US has pursued a policy of pressuring nations to give sanctions to russia
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@Dr.Franklin
Yeah, Charlie Wilson style
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@oromagi
Well, that's a lie. 3RU7AL has essentially conceded his OP claims by changing his claim from "aid has now been stripped"
why did you post another verifiably FALSE CLAIM about what i said in the course of this conversation ?
read the fucking quote
"humanitarian aid" will now be stripped from nations who refuse to tacitly support "the war in ukraine"
that's a copy and paste of what you claim is a "lie"
to mere "implication" and then again to "just a non-factual extension meant as an ice-breaker."
it's pretty funny how obsessed you are with that introductory sentence when you've made it perfectly clear that ALL FOREIGN AID IS TRANSACTIONAL
which is the entire point of this conversation
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@oromagi
Remember that this guy obsessively replying to every fucking post I make in every fucking forum has a restraining order against me, is blocking me. What kind of cowardly cunt stalks a debate site all day every day constantly trolling but also desperately avoiding any kind of actual debate? I wonder what mental illness compels this ridiculous chickenshit to talk about me all day, every day but keeps him totally terrified of actually talking to me about anything ever. Do his masters beat him when he gets proven wrong? Does his hitler 'stached mother make him him wear his diapers overlong? Why is greyparrot such a fearful little rat of a man and what manner of rhetorical strychnine might ever put that yellow-bellied bitch down?
do you know what keeps a troll motivated ?
posts like this
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@oromagi
Was Wilson wrong in this story? I don't think so. Do you?
obviously
"humanitarian aid" will now be stripped from nations who refuse to tacitly support "the war in ukraine"that's a copy and paste of what you claim is a "lie"
And also proved in detail that is a lie. You cannot name one example of humanitarian aid being stripped from any nation for refusing to support the war in Ukraine because no nation has done so. In fact, the US gave a shitload of money to Ethiopia on the day before you made this claim in spite of Ethiopia refusing to tacitly support the War in Ukraine.
You also said "good luck finding this story on cnn or fox or nbc" but all those outlets ran stories about Western & Russian diplomatic pressure campaigns this week accurately report US Foreign aid to Ehtiopia.
to mere "implication" and then again to "just a non-factual extension meant as an ice-breaker."it's pretty funny how obsessed you are with that introductory sentence
That's your claim, man. That's literally the topic you suggested we discuss. The way an argument works is you make a claim, I consider whether or not your claim is true. If I think its untrue, I make a counterargument and lay out my evidence for untruth. Then its your job to concede my counterargument or show show me the error in it, and so forth.
when you've made it perfectly clear that ALL FOREIGN AID IS TRANSACTIONAL which is the entire point of this conversation
False. In fact it has been like pulling teeth to get you to even say that you don't think foreign aid should be transactional much less make any kind of argument against that notion (which you definitely have not).
You seem to imply that transactional foreign aid is some kind shockingly bad conduct but that more the norm for all foreign relations ever.
Here's the Wikipedia article on AID:
Aid may serve one or more functions: it may be given as a signal of diplomatic approval, or to strengthen a military ally, to reward a government for behavior desired by the donor, to extend the donor's cultural influence, to provide infrastructure needed by the donor for resource extraction from the recipient country, or to gain other kinds of commercial access. Countries may provide aid for further diplomatic reasons. Humanitarian and altruistic purposes are often reasons for foreign assistance
That is, strictly altruistic reasons are listed as the seventh possible purpose for providing aid. All of the six prior examples are transactional.
The claims you made were:
- humanitarian aid will now be stripped and
- mainstream media is not reporting this.
Since you haven't presented any evidence to support either claim and made statement softening your OP, it seems like the discussion should be done. Right?
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@3RU7AL
do you know what keeps a troll motivated ?posts like this
I know you are right about that. I should just ignore it best as I am able.
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@3RU7AL
->@oromagiWas Wilson wrong in this story? I don't think so. Do you?obviously
I forgot to mention that Charlie Wilson is also famous for brokering the transactional aid package that enabled the Mujahedeen to kick Russia out of Afghanistan.
Maybe we should debate this formally. What do you think?
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@oromagi
- humanitarian aid THREATENED TO be stripped and
- mainstream media is not headlining this.
how does this fit your sensibilities ?
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@oromagi
enabled the Mujahedeen to kick Russia out of Afghanistan.
you're doubtless a huge fan of oliver north as well
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@3RU7AL
-->@oromagi
- humanitarian aid THREATENED TO be stripped and
- mainstream media is not headlining this.
how does this fit your sensibilities ?
humanitarian aid THREATENED TO be stripped
to this extent that this is written in the passive voice (that is, your sentence has no subject) I think it is less demonstrably false.
If the claim was more like "some EU bureaucrats are recommending that some EU foreign ministers link some aid more directly to cooperation on Ukraine", I think that would be much more accurate. Per our conversation, aid is at best a gift at worst a transaction. "stripped" suggests an entitlement or possession and no foreign aid or gift or transaction qualifies as an entitlement, right?
- mainstream media is not headlining this.
Well, that's not false but its a fairly subjective claim- what is headline news in a era without frontpages? All non-breaking news just hits the top of the queue and rolls down. The Ethiopia deal was the top International story on the AP News wire for a couple of hours on Thursdays. CNN covered Lavrov's pressure campaign, Zelenksy's African appeal and the US aid packages to Africa this week. I don't think any media covered the diplomatic memo story but like I said its not reallyall that newsworthy, certainly not in US markets.
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@3RU7AL
you're doubtless a huge fan of oliver north as well
Wow do you not know history if you don't appreciate the profound difference between Operation Cyclone and Iran-Contra.
Charlie Wilson ran around and got every branch of government, on board consulted every ally before pushing through a popularly approved aid package. That's democracy in action.
Oliver North (on Reagan's behalf) was secretly sneaking weapons to Iran
- in direct violation of a US and International embargo on any kind of trade much less selling missiles and helicopter parts to an enemy holding American hostages
- at the same time the Reagan administration listed Iran a terrorist state
- When the US was actively allied with Iraq against Iran in the Iran-Iraq War. The Reagan administration was pumping arms into both sides of a gruesome war, one side openly and the other side secretly- collecting hundreds of millions of dollars that no law could trace then or now.
- Iran was initially losing that war but then went on the offensive using US built helicopters they could not have flown without Reagan's secret aid.
- As the extent of the US's betrayal of our alliance with Iraq became clear in 1990, the US lost any kind of diplomatic influence over Saddam Hussein.
- A very good case can be made that North's crimes were one very direct cause of the Gulf War and so by extension 9/11, the War in Afghanistan, The Iraq War and the War on Terror, Syria, ISIS, etc, etc, etc.
- which is not to even mention covert arms for hostages, secret support for terrorism in El Salvador that undermined US Central American relationships, etc.
One guy did a legal, democratically approved deal that stopped our enemy's illegal invasion.
The other guy did a hyper-illegal covert op that eventually got ten thousand us soldiers killed and more than 3000 US civilians and blew up the Middle East.
If we were to discover Biden secretly selling missiles to Russia today, that would be the equivalent of what Reagan did.
Not comparable in any fucking way.
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@oromagi
- A very good case can be made that North's crimes were one very direct cause of the Gulf War and so by extension 9/11, the War in Afghanistan, The Iraq War and the War on Terror, Syria, ISIS, etc, etc, etc.
step one, the discovery of common ground