Star Trek Teleportation

Author: keithprosser

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@drafterman
The only question that remains: Where did the neural energy come from?!
Full marks for detail and sources.

My main issue is that without "neural energy" how does Riker-clone have an operational mind and or memories?

I always took the term "neural energy" to mean simply "the delicate energy pattern that is the identifiable manifestation of your thoughts".

I mean, Data and Lor appear to have "neural energy" and they would certainly seem to be able to pass a Turing test.

From your description it sounds like you believe that without "neural energy", the "physical pattern" would simply be a crash test dummy?
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@secularmerlin
Indeed physical continuity is the key to why I do not wish to be transported. The pattern (often referred to in episodes centering around transporter technology as a plot device) is only the recipe and when someone is transported they are not the same cake.
Have you seen the 2006 movie "The Prestige"?

It covers this territory quite well, I think you'd enjoy it.
Also, the 2016 tv series "Travelers".
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@3RU7AL
I'm an avid reader of O'Brien at work. Very hilarious.

My main issue is that without "neural energy" how does Riker-clone have an operational mind and or memories?
I'll address the "operational mind" part lower down, but for the memories, Lonely Among Us establishes that the physical pattern restricts this. When Picard is reformed, his memory of the encounter is determined by the time stamp of his physical body.

RIKER: Sounds like our Captain. 
TROI: But confused. This Picard pattern was formed before he went out there. 

I always took the term "neural energy" to mean simply "the delicate energy pattern that is the identifiable manifestation of your thoughts".
Ah, but what does "identifiable manifestation of your thoughts" mean? In reality, your thoughts are little more than the physical arrangement of the neurons of your brain. They cannot exist separate from that. In Star Trek, it seems that your thoughts can exist independent of your brain.

I mean, Data and Lor appear to have "neural energy" and they would certainly seem to be able to pass a Turing test.
Perhaps they do, it might be that any sufficiently advanced "mind" will give birth to this neural energy. But it's clear that the neural energy is not dependent on the mind. Data's brain can certainly house humanoid neural energy (Schizoid Man, Power Play) but we don't know if the opposite is true.

From your description it sounds like you believe that without "neural energy", the "physical pattern" would simply be a crash test dummy?
Maybe, or it may simply be an automaton. The Spock-body minus Spocks-katra (arguably Spock's "neural energy") in "The Search for Spock" had some base level of operation, but was born from scratch. A Riker-body created with all of Riker's memories might have enough complexity to give a sufficient simulation of life.
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@drafterman
Neural energy sounds horribly dualistic and vitalistic to me.  I say that if a brain has all its atoms in place and moving correctly then it will produce thoughts without having to add 'neural energy' to it.   'NE' seems like techo-babble for 'soul' and I am against souls because I am an atheist bigot (according to PW, anyway).


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@drafterman
If "neural energy" can "pass-through" a machine (teleporter) and be "redirected" and or "sent to the wrong place" then it is detectable and identifiable scientifically.

If "neural energy" is scientifically detectable and identifiable, then it is not some "dualistic" substance.

It seems more plausible that it is a particularly delicate and complex energy configuration.



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@3RU7AL
If "neural energy" can "pass-through" a machine (teleporter) and be "redirected" and or "sent to the wrong place" then it is detectable and identifiable scientifically.

If "neural energy" is scientifically detectable and identifiable, then it is not some "dualistic" substance.

It seems more plausible that it is a particularly delicate and complex energy configuration.
I don't see why a dualistic substance can't be detected in a fictional universe. But it is clearly a different kind of energy that exists in reality.
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@drafterman
I don't see why a dualistic substance can't be detected in a fictional universe. But it is clearly a different kind of energy that exists in reality.
The fundamental flaw in the dualistic hypothesis is -

(IFF) there is more than one type of matter and or energy that is fundamentally distinct from so-called "normal" matter and energy (THEN) these distinct types of matter and or energy could not possibly interact with each other (AND) as such would be mutually exclusive and fundamentally undetectable to each other.

Conversely,

(IFF) there is more than one type of matter and or energy that is somewhat (but not fundamentally) distinct from so-called "normal" matter and energy (THEN) these somewhat distinct types of matter and or energy could conceivably interact with each other under special conditions (AND) as such would not be mutually exclusive and could interact with each other BECAUSE of a fundamental similarity shared between the two.

If the hypothetical types of matter and or energy are not fundamentally distinct, then monism is (apparently) true.

In other words,

Types of matter/energy are either fundamentally distinct and therefore undetectable to each other (dualism).

Or,

Types of matter/energy are fundamentally similar and therefore detectable to each other (monism).
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@3RU7AL
Neural energy is made of pure narrativium.



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@keithprosser
Sounds like "Red Matter".
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@3RU7AL
My main issue is that without "neural energy" how does Riker-clone have an operational mind and or memories?

Neural energy is nonsense.

There is the biological pattern via gravitational worm-hole/tube that is dis-assembled and reassembled as closely as possible to the original.  Will there be memory loss?

Duhh, all animals have varying degrees short and long term memory loss.  Any biological transporter will never be a perfect, operationally.

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@3RU7AL
The fundamental flaw in the dualistic hypothesis is -

> Photon is its own dual

> Tetrahedron is its own dual polyhedron --see two tetrahedron defining 8 corners/vertexes of a cube

> Left - right duality ---includes spin, orbit and mirror image of self realized

> inside-out and outside-out duality not same as left - right duality

> concave negative - convex postive

>  wave particle


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@mustardness
Photon is its own dual
Quantum physics does not violate monism.

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@3RU7AL
Positive + and - negative charge = dipolar, not monopolar.

Positive (  ) curvature and negative )(  curvature  = gravity (  ) and dark energy )(, 180 degree, diametric opposites  .....SPACE(><)(><)SPACE........

Two, flat transition  points between positive and negative on a torus, are 180 degree, diametric opposite.
torus is a tube

....1----5----7--------11-----13-----------17----19----------23--------........,,,,.positive curvature ( )
0 *v*/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ *v* 25....positive peaks ^+^ and v-v negative trough charges
.......2--------8----10-----------14-----16----------20----22-----------.........,,,.negative curvature  )(

Presumption of a transporter that uses bufferring. Any such transporter may not be possible to store temporarily a "data set".  

Or there may exist laws, that, do not allow such data set to be stored, because, if storeable, because of  then the potential for cloning -i.e. Government Issue { G.I. Joe humans }-- becomes possible.

So the transporter of humans may involve a more direct 1:1 ratio of streaming data sthat disassembles > * v * /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\  * v * > reassembles using a gravitational tube{ worm-hole-like } of existing gravitational space without introduction of additional energy/matter ---i.e. no carrier wave--   beyond what energy/matter that composes the human.

I'm not a transporter engineer, just a philosopher with various ---if not many--  handy-man abilities.

Umbilical chord is a tube

Blood vessel is a tube

Disgestive tract is a tube

Fallopian tubes

Birth canal is a tube{?}

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* i * Worm-like-hole is a tube >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * i *
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...."1131.13 The omnitriangulated strip is an extraordinary mathematical transformation in which you can graphically accommodate the omni-directionality of all systems in an exactly coordinated mathematical accounting. It can project and print out on a strip all gravitational and radiational data, be they in the form of stars, fishes, or anything.

...They are all coordinatably print-outable onto one continuous flat ribbon map. What we have is a true prototype of an omnidirectional typewriter. It can print out each omni-embracing layer of each frequency layer of each convergent-divergentsystem.

When you print out the omnidata on such a strip, it identifies specifically where and when each event in thetransformation occurs."...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"physical" = "energy"

To become omni-considerate requires a 6 chords -- /\   /\-- of a tetrahedron minimally ergo minimal 3D consideration.


4 viewpoints of tetrahedron complements 6 chords of tetrahedron.

..."Like magic! He achieved this by dividing the globe into 96 triangles and projecting them onto a tetrahedron, preserving the proportions of water and land. Then he unfolded the tetrahedron into a rectangle, where the 96 sections created a map resembling the surface of the original globe, only flat.".....

.."Have you ever wondered how your GPS receiver works? They use a technique called trilateration.

Despite how GPS receivers are often confused with triangulation (which measures angles), they really don’t use angles at all.
Trilateration involves measuring distances."....


..."Because we have a third satellite, it reveals your true location where all three circles intersect.
...Using three distances, trilateration can pinpoint a precise location. Each satellite is at the center of a sphere and where they all intersect is the position of the GPS receiver.
....As the position of the GPS receiver moves, the radius of each circle (distance) will also change."

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@mustardness
You're completely off-topic.

Monism does not = monopolar.

Dualism is functionally identical to and logically indistinguishable from monism.

Monism is what we have evidence of.

Dualism (even if hypothetically true) is axiomatically impossible to have evidence of.
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@3RU7AL

You're completely off-topic.

Your confused.

Positive + and - negative charge = dipolar, not monopolar.

Positive (  ) curvature and negative )(  curvature  = gravity (  ) and dark energy )(, 180 degree, diametric opposites  .....SPACE(><)(><)SPACE........

Two, flat transition  points between positive and negative on a torus, are 180 degree, diametric opposite.
torus is a tube

....1----5----7--------11-----13-----------17----19----------23--------........,,,,.positive curvature ( )
0 *v*/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ *v* 25....positive peaks ^+^ and v-v negative trough charges
.......2--------8----10-----------14-----16----------20----22-----------.........,,,.negative curvature  )(

Presumption of a transporter that uses bufferring. Any such transporter may not be possible to store temporarily a "data set".  

Or there may exist laws, that, do not allow such data set to be stored, because, if storeable, because of  then the potential for cloning -i.e. Government Issue { G.I. Joe humans }-- becomes possible.

So the transporter of humans may involve a more direct 1:1 ratio of streaming data sthat disassembles > * v * /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\  * v * > reassembles using a gravitational tube{ worm-hole-like } of existing gravitational space without introduction of additional energy/matter ---i.e. no carrier wave--   beyond what energy/matter that composes the human.

I'm not a transporter engineer, just a philosopher with various ---if not many--  handy-man abilities.

Umbilical chord is a tube

Blood vessel is a tube

Disgestive tract is a tube

Fallopian tubes

Birth canal is a tube{?}

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* i * Worm-like-hole is a tube >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * i *
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...."1131.13 The omnitriangulated strip is an extraordinary mathematical transformation in which you can graphically accommodate the omni-directionality of all systems in an exactly coordinated mathematical accounting. It can project and print out on a strip all gravitational and radiational data, be they in the form of stars, fishes, or anything.

...They are all coordinatably print-outable onto one continuous flat ribbon map. What we have is a true prototype of an omnidirectional typewriter. It can print out each omni-embracing layer of each frequency layer of each convergent-divergentsystem.

When you print out the omnidata on such a strip, it identifies specifically where and when each event in thetransformation occurs."...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"physical" = "energy"

To become omni-considerate requires a 6 chords -- /\   /\-- of a tetrahedron minimally ergo minimal 3D consideration.


4 viewpoints of tetrahedron complements 6 chords of tetrahedron.

..."Like magic! He achieved this by dividing the globe into 96 triangles and projecting them onto a tetrahedron, preserving the proportions of water and land. Then he unfolded the tetrahedron into a rectangle, where the 96 sections created a map resembling the surface of the original globe, only flat.".....

.."Have you ever wondered how your GPS receiver works? They use a technique called trilateration.

Despite how GPS receivers are often confused with triangulation (which measures angles), they really don’t use angles at all.
Trilateration involves measuring distances."....


..."Because we have a third satellite, it reveals your true location where all three circles intersect.
...Using three distances, trilateration can pinpoint a precise location. Each satellite is at the center of a sphere and where they all intersect is the position of the GPS receiver.
....As the position of the GPS receiver moves, the radius of each circle (distance) will also change."


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@3RU7AL

Monism does not = monopolar.
Dipolar = inherently dualism/dualistic, your still confused.
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@3RU7AL
Dualism is functionally identical to and logically indistinguishable from monism.
Your still very confused. Why?

Same goes for rest of you comments. Are you on some prescribed medicine for mental issues?

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@mustardness
Monism does not = monopolar.
Dipolar = inherently dualism/dualistic, your still confused.
Substance dualism is a functionally identical (metaphysical framework) to and logically indistinguishable from monism.
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@mustardness
Dualism is functionally identical to and logically indistinguishable from monism.
Your still very confused. Why?
Please explain to me how a hypothetically undetectable substance can be determined to "exist"?
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@3RU7AL
Substance dualism is a functionally identical (metaphysical framework) to and logically indistinguishable from monism.
Have you been prescribed medicine for mental issues in the past?

Here is first Universal dualism that you have yet to grasp, much less accept or acknoledge as truth.

1} macro-infinite non-occupied space,

2} finite, occupied space Universe.

Bru7, you have some good rational, logical common sense on many issues but not this one of them. Go figure.
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@3RU7AL
Please explain to me how a hypothetically undetectable substance can be determined to "exist"?
Huh? What has this got to do with anything Ive stated? Your still confused on this issue Bru.

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@mustardness
Please explain to me how a hypothetically undetectable substance can be determined to "exist"?
Huh? What has this got to do with anything Ive stated? Your still confused on this issue Bru.
You chimed in on dualism vs. monism.
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@3RU7AL
Please explain to me how a hypothetically undetectable substance can be determined to "exist"?
That in no way addresses what I stated to you. Lets try again and see if you can get your mental focus back on the track.

Post #141 ---Huh? What has this got to do with anything Ive stated? Your still confused on this issue Bru.

I made no comments regarding any " hypothetically undetecable substance". Your confused til you can read my lips/text.

You chimed in on dualism vs. monism.

Yeah and I addressed that in sperate post prior to #141. Your still confused
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@mustardness
Please explain how any of what you are jabbering about has anything to do with "Star Trek Teleportation".
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@3RU7AL
Please explain to me how a hypothetically undetectable substance can be determined to "exist"?
Still waiting for you to get over your ego based mental issues of avoidance and address my question.

How does you above relate to anything I stated? This is 4th or fifth time Ive asked.  Ego is the greatest danger to humanities long term survival on Earth.

Please explain to me how a hypothetically undetectable substance can be determined to "exist"?

Everyone here is jabbering, including you.  When you want to offer a rational, logical common sense reply to anything Ive stated, please do.

You ego based mental issues  block your abilities to do so.  Very typical of many at DDO and DArt. Place your ego to the side and open your closed mind and address my question posed to you repeatedly. You cant do it because of your ego.

....1----5----7--------11-----13-----------17----19----------23--------........,,,,.positive curvature ( )
0 *v*/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ *v* 25....positive peaks ^+^ and v-v negative trough charges
.......2--------8----10-----------14-----16----------20----22-----------.........,,,.negative curvature  )(

Presumption of a transporter that uses bufferring. Any such transporter may not be possible to store temporarily a "data set".  

Or there may exist laws, that, do not allow such data set to be stored, because, if storeable, because of  then the potential for cloning -i.e. Government Issue { G.I. Joe humans }-- becomes possible.

So the transporter of humans may involve a more direct 1:1 ratio of streaming data sthat disassembles > * v * /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\  * v * > reassembles using a gravitational tube{ worm-hole-like } of existing gravitational space without introduction of additional energy/matter ---i.e. no carrier wave--   beyond what energy/matter that composes the human.

I'm not a transporter engineer, just a philosopher with various ---if not many--  handy-man abilities.

Umbilical chord is a tube

Blood vessel is a tube

Disgestive tract is a tube

Fallopian tubes

Birth canal is a tube{?}

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* i * Worm-like-hole is a tube >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * i *
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...."1131.13 The omnitriangulated strip is an extraordinary mathematical transformation in which you can graphically accommodate the omni-directionality of all systems in an exactly coordinated mathematical accounting. It can project and print out on a strip all gravitational and radiational data, be they in the form of stars, fishes, or anything.

...They are all coordinatably print-outable onto one continuous flat ribbon map. What we have is a true prototype of an omnidirectional typewriter. It can print out each omni-embracing layer of each frequency layer of each convergent-divergentsystem.

When you print out the omnidata on such a strip, it identifies specifically where and when each event in thetransformation occurs."...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"physical" = "energy"

To become omni-considerate requires a 6 chords -- /\   /\-- of a tetrahedron minimally ergo minimal 3D consideration.


4 viewpoints of tetrahedron complements 6 chords of tetrahedron.

..."Like magic! He achieved this by dividing the globe into 96 triangles and projecting them onto a tetrahedron, preserving the proportions of water and land. Then he unfolded the tetrahedron into a rectangle, where the 96 sections created a map resembling the surface of the original globe, only flat.".....

.."Have you ever wondered how your GPS receiver works? They use a technique called trilateration.

Despite how GPS receivers are often confused with triangulation (which measures angles), they really don’t use angles at all.
Trilateration involves measuring distances."....


..."Because we have a third satellite, it reveals your true location where all three circles intersect.
...Using three distances, trilateration can pinpoint a precise location. Each satellite is at the center of a sphere and where they all intersect is the position of the GPS receiver.
....As the position of the GPS receiver moves, the radius of each circle (distance) will also change."

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Ahh, also consider this. I read of studys regarding spontaneous people waves in sports stadiums that apparrently were more popular during the 80's.

The study found that a spontaneous wave only  occurred, or most often occurred when 25 or more people were attempting to initiate the wave.

So perhaps there exist a numerical set  of nervous system like-minded,  entanglement-like occurrences before the so called 'free will' can occur.

....1----5----7--------11-----13-----------17----19----------23--------........,,,,.positive curvature ( )
0 *v*/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ *v* 25....positive peaks ^+^ and v-v negative trough charges
.......2--------8----10-----------14-----16----------20----22-----------.........,,,.negative curvature  )(

So the question becomes can humans transfer data without a higher frequency carrier wave?

The problem is that gravity (  ) --and most likely dark energy )(---  is not focusable whereas EMRadiation is. Ex laser beam is focused { entrained photons }.

Ergo humans cannot harness gravity (  ) or dark energy )( as they can EMRadiation /\/\/. Therein lies the problem of dissassembling here, teleporting and reassembly there with no loss or very little loss of the original pattern. I dunno as I'm just a handy-man and philosopher.




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.."The only fundamental interaction violating mirror symmetry is the "Weak interaction".

...The violation of mirror symmetry, "parity violation", was discovered in 1956, and awarded with the Nobel prize in physics already in 1957.

....The weak interaction is mediated by the W± andZ0 bosons discovered at CERN in 1984.Also this discovery was awared with the Nobel prize already the following year, 1984. The neutral Z0 boson causes even an atom to differslightly from its mirror image."......