Abortion is NOT Murder, and it is perfectly SAFE

Author: TWS1405

Posts

Total: 122
TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7

94% of ALL abortions take place BEFORE 14 weeks gestation, the majority of those being BEFORE 6 weeks gestation. Absolutely. Positively. NO BABY involved.

Words have meaning. That meaning is defined by the context in which they are given. Semantics matters. Syntax matters. When you use words out of context, out of syntax, and semantically incorrect...you end with emotively charged terms based on a perverted context in which they are given. As a result, many words are used as misnomers and many are also conflated with others, albeit incorrectly. Terms like baby, child, children...the "pro-life" crowd never, ever uses the scientifically accurate terminology of any of the stages of pregnancy. Be it biology, psychology, legally, or reproductively. They are too truthful, too dry and meaningless for them because they cannot handle the truth of it all.

The obvious ignorant (uneducated) #prolife bandwagon considers #conception = to [a] #humanlife or [a] #humanbeing. Problem with that statement is, #cellularlife does NOT equal #ahumanbeing or #personhood.

FACT: #Potentiality does NOT = #Actuality. Never has. Never will.

Cellular life (i.e., conception), the basic biological criteria for #life, is merely potentiality. Without #viability (capable of extrauterine survival), the pregnancy is immaterial. It will not exist until it gestates long enough within the female #womb, period.

Again, 94% of ALL abortions are BEFORE 14 weeks, and viability is technically 19-20 weeks. Less than 1.2% of ALL abortions are AFTER 22-24 weeks. So, the whole "baby killers" argument is unsubstantiated uneducated nonsense. While there are some late term abortions, they are far, few and between (the noted 1.2%).

While fertilization, or conception, meets the very basic biological criterial for cellular life, that cellular life simply does not equal an actual #humanbeing. It just doesn't; as potentiality can never equal actuality. And yet the pro-life crowd keeps using incorrect terminology, misnomers, to describe accurately labeled stages of human reproductive development of a pregnancy. Baby this, baby that.

A zygote is NOT a baby.
A blastocyst is NOT a baby.
An embryo is NOT a baby.
An unviable fetus is NOT a baby.

An initial heartbeat does NOT equal a baby either. A heartbeat only means that an albeit immature organ (not entirely fully developed) is functional. Take the embryo/fetus out of the womb too early (before 19-22 weeks), and it will cease to exist. That being said, #viability is the ONLY issue that should concern anyone where a pregnancy is concerned. This proves why 94% of ALL abortions are before 14 weeks gestation, the majority of those being before 6 weeks. NO girl or woman wants to be responsible for the outright death of a viable fetus (i.e., if viable, an actual "baby"). Despite viability, the pregnancy still has no legal rights outside of Roe v Wade (i.e. - prohibition of late term abortions for mere contraceptive purposes).

Yes, many come back at me with the laws concerning double homicide of a pregnant woman; yet the fact remains that both the state and federal laws written of same categorize or ascribe the label of "legal victim" to the pregnancy, regardless of stage, and never that of [a] human being. The legislators knew that to state otherwise would immediately conflict with established case law (precedence) and Roe v Wade; not to mention the 14th Amendment of the Bill of Rights. So that argument is dead in the water (pardon the pun).

The undeniable fact remains, that without fetal #viability there can be NO actualized "human being."



Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 167
Posts: 3,837
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
-->
@TWS1405
Abortions before 14 weeks shouldn't be illegal, but so what about abortions after 22 weeks? Since they probably can survive outside of womb thus classifying them as organism, wouldn't that be murder of some sort?
K_Michael
K_Michael's avatar
Debates: 38
Posts: 749
4
5
10
K_Michael's avatar
K_Michael
4
5
10
Nothing is perfectly safe. I would say that on balance early term abortion is likely safer than carrying a baby to term for the mother for her long-term health.
K_Michael
K_Michael's avatar
Debates: 38
Posts: 749
4
5
10
K_Michael's avatar
K_Michael
4
5
10
-->
@Intelligence_06
they probably can survive outside of womb thus classifying them as organism, wouldn't that be murder of some sort?
Organism: any organic, living system that functions as an individual entity. (Wikipedia)
By this definition, once an embryo is formed, it's a separate organism. Independence isn't a requirement. A parasite in your stomach is just as dependent on you for life as an embryo, but it is still classified as an organism.
And there's jumping straight to murder. You kill dozens if not thousands of microscopic organisms every time you move, and you most likely kill bugs in your house without a second thought. You might have even had a dog put down. Yet no one calls it murder. A dog is unequivocally more sentient by every human metric than a 22 week fetus, so why do you make the distinction?
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 167
Posts: 3,837
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
-->
@K_Michael
Yeah, I think you are right here.
ebuc
ebuc's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,254
3
2
4
ebuc's avatar
ebuc
3
2
4
Virtual rape = sticking nose into pregnant womans bodily business is done without womans consent by those for purpose of preventing pregnant woman from having the ability to make her choice to terminate or not, the embrionic/fetus/baby organism, that, for short period of time ---24 - 30 hrs--   leaves ovary and travels in fallopian tube to become implanted on uterus wall.

O = egg and  ~~> = spermazoa

(:) = fertilised egg takes place in fallopian tube

..." Transport through the tube takes about 30 hours. " LINK ....

---h,mmm, seemingly two differrent accounts --above and below--  of time it takes to from ovary to uterus---

... "Approximately 3 days after fertilization, a 16-cell conceptus reaches the uterus."..LINK
... Once inside the uterus, the conceptus floats freely for several more days. It continues to divide, creating a ball of approximately 100 cells, and consuming nutritive endometrial secretions called uterine milk while the uterine lining thickens. The ball of now tightly bound cells starts to secrete fluid and organize themselves around a fluid-filled cavity, the blastocoel. At this developmental stage, the conceptus is referred to as a blastocyst. Within this structure, a group of cells forms into an inner cell mass, which is fated to become the embryo ....
.....Pre-embryonic cleavages make use of the abundant cytoplasm of the conceptus as the cells rapidly divide without changing the total volume....
....As the blastocyst forms, the trophoblast excretes enzymes that begin to degrade the zona pellucida. In a process called “hatching,” the conceptus breaks free of the zona pellucida in preparation for implantation.
.....Implantation is complete by the middle of the second week. Just a few days after implantation, the trophoblast has secreted enough hCG for an at-home urine pregnancy test to give a positive result. ".....

(((v))) = invagination aka gastrulation and three germ layers are formed ectoderm-mesoderm-endoderm

......" As the third week of development begins, the two-layered disc of cells becomes a three-layered disc through the process of gastrulation, during which the cells transition from totipotency to multipotency.....

......." According to Wolpert, "It is not birth, marriage, or death, but gastrulation, which is truly the most important time in your life." Gastrulation is a major biological event that occurs early in the embryonic stage of human development. "....LINK

--------note: this is when the nerual spinal chord is developed-------

......The embryonic stage lasts through the eighth week following fertilization, after which the embryo is called a fetus " See above link....

( ** ) = fetus/baby after 8th week.

( * * ) = 40 weeks { approx. } a born out baby as independent individual human, that, needs still needs an external dependency by human{s}.

12 pairs{?} of cranial nerves --which includes largest nerve in human body the vagus nerve, which causes some female opera singers to have orgasm when the sing.

---note: 12 pairs = 24 and this is signifcant number related to the cubo-octahedron aka the Vector Equilibrium in Synergetics---

31 bilateral { pairs ergo 62 } of spinal nerves

---note: the 5-fold icosahedron has 31 left and 31 right-skew primary great circles, as it is define by  left or right contractions of the above VE{ vector equilibrium }---- See LINK

---note:  the VE is composed of 12-around-1 spheres  is likened to cosmic pregnancy, and contraction occurs to pop out the nuclear  one sphere { baby sphere }, and allow for torquing contraction to phase stage of a semi-existent, 5-fold icosahedron { lacking 6 chords/lines/struts}---- See LINK and specifically phase B

Pi^3 { XYZ aka 3D } = 31.00 62 7 66......80 29 98 201 7 54 7 631 506 710 1

---note: above and below that 7 occurs in overall 7th position and that above 00 makes the rational 31 more distince from irrational side-----

Pi^4 { abc-d } / 4 = 24.35 22 7 27.....585 00 609 309 11 00 831 7 21 76

-----note: this latter above is what I label as renormalization process to turn Pi^4 back to spatial abc-d dimensions, as in Pi^3 uses only spatial {XYZ/abc } considerations of time and Micho Kakus book Hyperspace, the 4th d is the volumetric diagonal that stems from the inside corner vertex of XYZ/abc and extends inward to create cube inside the outer cube [  [ ]  ]----

Pi^4 minus 31 = Cosmic Pi-Time 66.4......02 81 43 53 7 02 61 7 06 09 64 01 7 688 7 05
TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
-->
@Intelligence_06
-->@TWS1405
Abortions before 14 weeks shouldn't be illegal, but so what about abortions after 22 weeks? Since they probably can survive outside of womb thus classifying them as organism, wouldn't that be murder of some sort?
My position is abortion should be legal up to 20 weeks. If you cannot decide by then, hands off. You carry to term. That is, unless, there is a medical emergency warranting an abortion after 20 weeks. 

Still wouldn't be murder. Murder only applies to a human being (an already born one) taking the life of another human being (an already born one) with malice and aforethought without justification. 

The rights, privileges and equal protection of the law is not granted/bestowed until birth (14th A.).
TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
-->
@K_Michael
And there's jumping straight to murder. You kill dozens if not thousands of microscopic organisms every time you move, and you most likely kill bugs in your house without a second thought. You might have even had a dog put down. Yet no one calls it murder. A dog is unequivocally more sentient by every human metric than a 22 week fetus, so why do you make the distinction?
The issue/matter/reality of abortion is solely a human being issue/matter/reality, not a canine, feline, bovine, or insect issue. 

ebuc
ebuc's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,254
3
2
4
ebuc's avatar
ebuc
3
2
4
-->
@TWS1405
legal up to 20 weeks. If you cannot decide by then, hands off. You carry to term.

Virtual rape, clear and simple. :--(
TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
-->
@ebuc

-->@TWS1405
legal up to 20 weeks. If you cannot decide by then, hands off. You carry to term.

Virtual rape, clear and simple. :--(

No such thing as "virtual" rape for a girl/woman who is already pregnant. 
Vici
Vici's avatar
Debates: 11
Posts: 333
2
4
7
Vici's avatar
Vici
2
4
7
It being safe does not make it right.  A fetus is scientifically a human being. Killing it is akin to killing a child. 
Vici
Vici's avatar
Debates: 11
Posts: 333
2
4
7
Vici's avatar
Vici
2
4
7
It being safe does not make it right.  A fetus is scientifically a human being. Killing it is akin to killing a child. 
Vici
Vici's avatar
Debates: 11
Posts: 333
2
4
7
Vici's avatar
Vici
2
4
7
it is never right to kill a baby
TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
-->
@Vici

It being safe does not make it right.  A fetus is scientifically a human being. Killing it is akin to killing a child. 

It being safe does not make it right.  A fetus is scientifically a human being. Killing it is akin to killing a child. 
Echo

Echo

Whatever....

NO! An unviable fetus IS NOT [a] human being. 

It is clear that you do not comprehend the reality of human reproduction let alone the terminology used to describe and define such.

No pregnancy has = rights to that of a born "child." 

Period, fact, period. 

Here endith the lesson. 
Vici
Vici's avatar
Debates: 11
Posts: 333
2
4
7
Vici's avatar
Vici
2
4
7
-->
@TWS1405

NO! 
An unviable fetus IS NOT [a] human being. 


It scientifically is. SCIENTIFICALLY, a life begins at conception. 
Vici
Vici's avatar
Debates: 11
Posts: 333
2
4
7
Vici's avatar
Vici
2
4
7
This is an uncontestable fact. 
TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
-->
@Vici
it is never right to kill a baby
Correct.

But abortion does NOT kill [a] baby.

Vici
Vici's avatar
Debates: 11
Posts: 333
2
4
7
Vici's avatar
Vici
2
4
7
If you contend, then when do you think it is right to kill the child? 
Vici
Vici's avatar
Debates: 11
Posts: 333
2
4
7
Vici's avatar
Vici
2
4
7
-->
@TWS1405
Correct.

But abortion does NOT kill [a] baby.


Baby, fetus, the reasons for affording the former is the same as why we ought to not allow abortion. We think babies have gone through conceptio and thus are live beings. The same applies for the fetus. 
TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
-->
@Vici
-->@TWS1405

NO! 
An unviable fetus IS NOT [a] human being. 


It scientifically is. SCIENTIFICALLY, a life begins at conception. 
I understand you are ignorant of the subject matter.
That is fine.

Does not change the fact that you are WRONG on ALL levels. 
Vici
Vici's avatar
Debates: 11
Posts: 333
2
4
7
Vici's avatar
Vici
2
4
7
-->
@TWS1405
 understand you are ignorant of the subject matter.
It is a scientific fact that life begins at conception. Life is defined in biology as anything that fulfills eight requirements. These requirements are as follows

1. displays cellular organization. From the moment of conception, a human child is made of at least one cell. This requirement is fulfilled.
2. Maintains Homeostasis. Homeostasis means that a living thing maintains a constant internal environment that keeps it alive. a human embryo performs operations such as waste removal, transforming energy, and taking in nutrients from outside of the cell through constructs such as the sodium-potassium pump. This requirement is fulfilled.
3. grows and develops. It is an obvious truism that a human embryo grows and develops and begins to do so from the moment of conception. This requirement is fulfilled.
4. Displays metabolism. Metabolism is converting fuel (like food) into energy. From the moment of conception, a human child displays metabolism. This requirement is fulfilled.
5. Displays heredity. From the moment of conception, the first cell (the zygote) has the capacity to divide into more cells and pass a copy of its DNA onto those other cells. This condition is fulfilled.
6. Responds to the environment. The zygote will perform tasks such as pulling nutrients into itself through active transport and maintaining an internal environment responding to any change therein. This condition is fulfilled.
7. Adaptation through evolution. As a member of the human species, the zygote is subject to prior evolution. And, if not killed, will contribute to evolution through reproduction. this requirement is fulfilled.
8. Can reproduce. It is an obvious truism that the zygote can reproduce. dividing into more cells in order to develop into a fully formed baby. 

as we can see, from the moment of conception a zygote fulfills every single one of the characteristics of life and is therefore alive.





TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
-->
@Vici
Baby, fetus, the reasons for affording the former is the same as why we ought to not allow abortion. We think babies have gone through conceptio and thus are live beings. The same applies for the fetus. 
Pure nonsensical gibberish. 
Vici
Vici's avatar
Debates: 11
Posts: 333
2
4
7
Vici's avatar
Vici
2
4
7
“Human life begins at fertilization, the process during which amale gamete or sperm unites with a female gamete or oocyte (ovum) to form asingle cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell markedthe beginning of each of us as a unique individual.” “A zygote is the beginningof a new human being (i.e., an embryo).”
—Keith L. Moore, The Developing Human: Clinically OrientedEmbryology, 7th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2003. pp. 16, 2.
 
“Fertilization is the process by which male and female haploidgametes (sperm and egg) unite to produce a genetically distinct individual.”
—Signorelli et al., Kinases, phosphatases and proteases duringsperm capacitation, CELL TISSUE RES. 349(3):765 (Mar. 20, 2012)
 
“Although life is a continuous process, fertilization (which,incidentally, is not a ‘moment’) is a critical landmark because, under ordinarycircumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is formed when thechromosomes of the male and female pronuclei blend in the oocyte.”
—Ronan O’Rahilly and Fabiola Mueller, Human Embryology andTeratology, 3rd edition. New York: John Wiley & Sons, 2000, p. 8
 
When questioned about when life begins,  Alan Guttmacher,president of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America, seemed to believethat life began at conception and stated that 

“This (life beginning at conception) all seems so simple andevident that it is difficult to picture a time when it wasn’t a part of thecommon knowledge”
Alan Guttmacher, former President of Planned Parenthood, (1933)

Vici
Vici's avatar
Debates: 11
Posts: 333
2
4
7
Vici's avatar
Vici
2
4
7
what do you have to say to these sources. 
Vici
Vici's avatar
Debates: 11
Posts: 333
2
4
7
Vici's avatar
Vici
2
4
7
-->
@TWS1405
why is killing a baby wrong? 
TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
-->
@Vici
 understand you are ignorant of the subject matter.
It is a scientific fact that life begins at conception
NO SHIT SHERLOCK!!!

But cellular life is not = to personhood.

Potentiality has never = actuality.

Never has, never will. 


Vici
Vici's avatar
Debates: 11
Posts: 333
2
4
7
Vici's avatar
Vici
2
4
7
-->
@TWS1405
what is the need for seperating life from personhood? this is an ontologilcal burden. What grounds can you do this? It is easeier to say humans = human rights. 
TWS1405
TWS1405's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,048
3
4
7
TWS1405's avatar
TWS1405
3
4
7
-->
@Vici
->@TWS1405
what is the need for seperating life from personhood? this is an ontologilcal burden. What grounds can you do this? It is easeier to say humans = human rights. 
Read the 14th Amendment of the BOR of the US Constitution. 

To be human in ORIGIN does NOT = being [a] human being. 

Think on that before you reply. 
Vici
Vici's avatar
Debates: 11
Posts: 333
2
4
7
Vici's avatar
Vici
2
4
7
   The legal definition of a human person is identified in 1 U.S.C. §8:
 
                                               i.     “In determining the meaning of any Act of Congress, or of any ruling, regulation, or interpretation of the various administrative bureaus and agencies of the United States, the words “person”, “human being”, “child”, and “individual”, shall include every infant member of the species homo sapiens who is born alive at any stage of development.”[iv]

Vici
Vici's avatar
Debates: 11
Posts: 333
2
4
7
Vici's avatar
Vici
2
4
7
note EVERY INFANT MEMBER OF THE SPECICES HOMO SAPEIN AT ANY STAGE OF DEVELOPEMTN