Moral ambiguity vs intense fanaticism

Author: bibliobibulimaniac

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#31
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@bibliobibulimaniac
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I understand it's a confusing question, and that is why I have brought it on here. 

I have a school assignment which is based around evaluating who was responsible for the Holocaust. I wanted to take a moral approach and analyse that area, and it lead me to that question. 

While I know it's confusing I have to tie it around responsibility as that is the assignment focus
It had to take both groups, the morally ambiguous and the intense fanatics to justify the extermination of 6 million Jews.

#32
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How goes/went the school assignment, and your own perspective on the question of responsibility?
Topic's author
#33
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It's an essay I have to write, and it's going quite well. I am happy with my arguments. I have yet to hand it in. Thank you for asking though. 
#34
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@bibliobibulimaniac
Well, if you like, let me know after you finish it, what your arguments are,
I've become mentally invested in this thread,
Thinking about responsibility, expectation, blame, guilt, and such,

But don't feel I've really gotten a grasp at what you're getting at or thinking yourself.
#35
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@Lemming
#28 Good thoughts.
#36
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Drummer Hoff was a children's book, I read as a kid, colorful pictures,
Describes a group of soldiers, going about the firing of a cannon,

"General Border gave the order,
Major Scott brought the shot,
Captain Bammer brought the rammer,
Sergeant Chowder brought the powder,
Corporal Farrel brought the barrel,
Private Parriage brought the carriage,
But Drummer Hoff fired it off. "
- by Barbara and Ed Emberley.

Idea of collective responsibility, I suppose, of personal responsibility, of distanced responsibility.
Hitler gave orders, always claimed he would take responsibility,
But is responsibility something we can give away, mitigate, take?

I dislike the word a bit,
I prefer Actions taken, Actions that might be if one was/is different, Expected Action,
. . .
Though 'Expected Action becomes a problem for me, due to my nihilism,
Expected by what value? By what perception? Law?

I've heard it said, though I forget the source or truth,
That Himmler fainted or vomited, during some execution or sight,
And later changed the method of execution, that it was more 'humane,
But humane for who?
With how often the gas failed to work, or people in great fear terror nakedness were shoved in,
. . .
Humane for the executioner?
Bah, turning away from one's own actions is what,
Though one can argue for one being killed less painfully,
Is it so easy to argue for one turning away from their own action,
In 'such an action,
Easier to kill far away, with a pen, a button, a bomb, a gun,
Than close up a knife or hands, some say,

Though others might say one is 'aware of a greater responsibility had, when thousands, millions are effected,
But 'are people aware? Seeing?
Ah, I'm rambling, unable to formulate, organize my thoughts.

. . .

Though I suppose one could argue 'different responsibilities prioritized,
Thinking as he did, that said actions were necessary,
That they ought be preformed in such a way that the executioners lasted longer than shorter,
Or his desire for the people that he valued, the executioners, health be cared for.

Still I don't care for it,
Responsibility to those who ought not have been victims, should have been a higher priority.

. . .

'Necessary to what end, and why 'only said method?

. . .

Still, who am I to talk?
. . .
Oh right, I'm Lemming,
Ought I feel more guilt at the border question?
3RU7AL's comments I recall somewhere, about life and death for some people seeking asylum, 'does bother me.
. . . Though I think I still see it as necessary. . .

Or Uragirimono's comments, as I recall, on other ways that people could be helping, saving others. . .

Ah, but who am I to talk. . .      : (

#37
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@Lemming
Good morning.

I will read and reply later.


#38
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@Lemming
Good morning.

I will read and reply later
Most people already know what the Holocaust did. You appear very unprepared.

It had to take both groups, the morally ambiguous and the intense fanatics to justify the extermination of 6 million Jews.
#39
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Soon the "holocaust" will be a forgettable page of human history.

So, to what degree did the "holocaust" change social thinking?
#40
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@zedvictor4
The Jewish people have not forgotten their history thousands of years past, I do not think they will forget the Holocaust anytime soon.

Nor will the countries involved in WW2 forget it,
Even those uninvolved, the history of others can prove instructive.

The events of history do not stand alone,
Like drops fallen into a pond, their ripples carry on.
#41
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@Lemming
For sure.

We record the past.

And reassess such data from time to time.

But memories fade.

And in fact, most human memories from WW2 will soon be extinct.

And some will be inspired to place more significance upon past events than most others will.

Really all depends upon how intensively we condition our kids.

Though, if WW2 becomes no more than a brief history lesson, then that is all that it will eventually become.

Perhaps one of my ancestors died during the English Civil War, but that would be no more than briefly interesting.

No sleep lost.

No sorrow.


#42
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@zedvictor4
I'm not sure I understand the greater point, that I think you're trying to make?
#43
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@zedvictor4

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Soon the "holocaust" will be a forgettable page of human history.

So, to what degree did the "holocaust" change social thinking?
World leaders have denounced the rising threat of anti-Semitism and vowed never to forget the lessons of the Holocaust at a solemn ceremony marking the 75th anniversary of the liberation of the Auschwitz death camp.

The two world wars will never be forgotten because it sheds a light on the barbaric nature of the white race.

Neither will the Jews let us forget they were the victims of the white race in the Holocaust.

#44
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@Lemming
No mystery.

Time and generations pass, and the effects of tragedy will diminish.

We might be taught the history lesson from time to time, but a minute later or a day later we will have moved on to the next bit of data recall without shedding a tear.

Generations are already outgrowing WW2.
#45
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There are rather a lot of Whitey Jews.

And the whitey Jew treats the swarthy Palestinian barbarically.

As the swarthy Palestinian will treat the Jew barbarically.

And ask the people of Rwanda if Blacky cannot also be barbaric.
#46
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Well, I have 'not outgrown history.
#47
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There are rather a lot of Whitey Jews.

And the whitey Jew treats the swarthy Palestinian barbarically.

As the swarthy Palestinian will treat the Jew barbarically.

And ask the people of Rwanda if Blacky cannot also be barbaric.
Have the Jews forgotten the Holocaust started in Germany and not by Palestinians?

#48
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@Lemming
You will undoubtedly have outgrown some.

As history goes back a very long way.

I had a direct link to WW2 through my father, though he died quite a while ago now.

He was there during the relief of Belsen concentration camp, but I cannot share the same memories of what he witnessed.

Only second-hand accounts, whereby the intensity of such memories is lost in one generation.

We've moved on through two or three generations since 1945, and Belsen concentration camp is now a largely forgotten bit of the bigger WW2 history lesson.


So, assuming that you are Aussie, do you still have nightmares about Callata Springs?

Would you even know what happened there without the help of Google?
#49
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Not really a logical reply is it?
#50
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@zedvictor4
I don't understand why it matters that people can forget memories, or that there is a limit to how much memory we can hold?

I also still don't understand the 'purpose of your reply in #39,
"Soon the "holocaust" will be a forgettable page of human history." - zedvictor4

Are you implying that there is no value or purpose in my reading and thinking about the Holocaust?

You then go on and on, saying history will be forgotten, history is worthless, people and events in the past don't matter,
You say, you can't name every event in history, they must not matter.

I'm not trying to be insulting or argumentative, but I don't understand your intent or point?

. . .

I also disagree with your arguments, but to my mind it ought be obvious that you are wrong,
'Except, that I think I'm missing something in your intended point.

#51
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Think about it in the year 5284. 

#52
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If man is still allliiivve,
Ah wait, that's the year 2525. . .

Gilgamesh is what, about 4700 years ago?
Still something worth thinking on for me, concepts of man.

Or the Hurrian Hymn no.6, 3400 years ago,
Still holds value to me, though reconstruction,
So long as the fallen trees have not weathered into the dust and grass,
Ought we not think there was sound, in their fall?

And even if silent, even if we have not surveyed all trees,
We 'have seen what we have,
We have within our power to seek out more,
Have in our desire of power, knowledge, joy, understanding.
#53
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@Lemming
We can argue semantics and definition relating to memory, but nonetheless there is a definite distinction to be made between a first-hand experience and a second-hand account.

Personal experience and a history lesson.

So, relative to our discourse, I would regard a memory as data acquired through personal experience rather than just data acquired from a second-hand narrative source.

As such, you will have no actual memories of WW2, and 77years on there will be few people with actual first-hand memories. Give it another 25 years or so and all memories of WW2 will be extinct.

Give it another 50 years and WW2 will only be a history lesson, and in another 100 years it will be largely forgotten. Just as WW1 now only stirs a few emotions, once a year in November.

So, by "soon" I don't mean tomorrow. But in terms of generations and recorded history "soon" doesn't take long to come around.

And as I also tried to point out, the teaching, acquiring and storing of data is a selective process. So, WW2 is big in your database, but what about the Australian Aboriginal massacres I alluded to. How much emphasis do you place on those in your thoughts? How much emphasis was placed on them in your education?
#54
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Many events are 2nd hand, even in the same 'time.

I did not see the World Trade Center fall with my own eyes reflected, it was recordings to me brought,
Recordings like writing can be edited,
But I do not doubt the World Trade Centers fall.
Though I may doubt other parts of history, some videos, that's not the point I'm trying to make, my point is first hand, isn't 'everything.

The memories will 'not be extinct, they have been written down, recorded.

In school I never did learn of the Australian Aboriginal massacres,
But I did learn of the Native American  deaths, loss of land,
I'm from America.

But even without an event being tied 'directly to one's own country,
There is value in 'world history, other countries histories and events,
'Lot of history I admit, but I'm not saying people can't find value elsewhere, or that they 'have to learn history, but I find it valuable, and so too others, I'd say.
#55
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@Lemming
Was the World Trade centre a personal experience or your personal experience of a disaster movie.

I don't doubt the veracity of actual footage from Auschwitz Birkenau, but my stored images do not allow me the same intensity of emotion as a survivor's memory does.

The difference between first-hand and second-hand is quite considerable.

Diluted by time, Auschwitz Birkenau will become a temporarily emotive experience. And then move on to the next history lesson or maths and then home to dinner and Call of Duty.


And sorry, for some reason I thought you were Aussie.

You are a non-standard American Darter....Very thoughtful.


#56
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@zedvictor4
World Trade Center 'was and 'is a bit distanced an event for me,
I'd agree there's a difference between first and 2ndhand experiences.

No worries about where from,
And thanks for the thoughtful compliment.
#57
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@Lemming
You're welcome.

I always enjoy reading your words, which seem to just tumble out of your head.
#58
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@Lemming
In school I never did learn of the Australian Aboriginal massacres,
But I did learn of the Native American  deaths, loss of land,
I'm from America.

But even without an event being tied 'directly to one's own country,
There is value in 'world history, other countries histories and events,
'Lot of history I admit, but I'm not saying people can't find value elsewhere, or that they 'have to learn history, but I find it valuable, and so too others, I'd say.
Cancel culture suits you just fine. You were never interested in studies and stopped at high school.
You need to find your value elsewhere. History is about the past. Your uncertainty is your future.