I think that the key issue is not a question of virology but politics. In the case of SARS1 the reporting of outbreak was swift due to the Norwegian WHO secretary and the intermediary animal discovered rapidly due to transparency. In the case of COVID-19 we had a WHO secretary who was weak and manipulated by the Chinese government. Also the destruction of samples and research. Threats to whistleblowers. This was all political. Secondly there was the cover up of gain of function work by US researchers. Again political. The origins are known. It is just China does not want to own up to the lab leak. It would have done so if it was a wet market vector with identifiable intermediary animal. We should not be wasting time here. We should place severe sanctions on countries that do not report at point of outbreak and refuse to cooperate. Given the fact China did not cooperate it is very likely to be a lab leak and given the uncharacteristic transmissibility the virus was GOF.
Fauci being hauled off to court to answer for his crimes against the American People.
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@oromagi
GP is too dumb to understand facts. Everything you wrote is going over his head. Because he’s a dummy.
Everything he wrote is an apology for government censorship. I'm not interested in apologies.
And I don't care if it makes your favorite party look bad.
The biggest objection I have to the natural origin hypothesis is the lack of an intermediate animal with an intermediate form of COVID. It appears the jump is straight from bats to humans, with 3% part of that jump unaccounted for in terms of virus evolution.
- Such an objection is unfounded. Science has not established that COVID originates in bats. Bats are considered likely because so many bats around Wuhan have so many different coronavirus but that is still just a theory. An intermediate animal is also only theory based on mutation rates. No intermediate species in necessary. Humans around Wuhan press deeper into bat habitats daily and come in daily direct contact with many different bat species.
- The WHO summarizes relative liklihood of origin theories as:
- direct zoonotic transmission to humans (spillover), assessed as "possible to likely"
- introduction through an intermediate host followed by a spillover, assessed as "likely to very likely"
- introduction through the (cold) food chain, assessed as "possible"
- introduction through a laboratory incident, assessed as "extremely unlikely"
- It is entirely hypocritical to theorize based on animal sampling while also condemning EcoHealth's surveys of very similar samples. If Americans think that Americans should have this raw data without Chinese gatekeeping then Americans can't condemn EcoHealth's cooperation with the Wuhan lab by falsely labeling it "gain-of-function" research. This kind of survey is exactly what EcoHealth was paying Wuhan for and EcoHealth should continue do so unimcumbered by Senator Paul's vicious falsehoods.
There were sick animals from the wet market, all with the same virus that spread from human hosts.
- False. No animals from the survey of Wuhan market had SARS2 they looked at 362 animals in Wuhan, mostly bats and discovered 17 new coronaviruses similar to SARS2. (oh fuck) The viruses most similar to SARS2 are found in bat caves 800 miles from Wuhan.
- coronaviruses were screened in the lung, liver, and intestinal tissue samples from fifteen raccoon dogs, seven Siberian weasels, three hog badgers, and three Reeves’s muntjacs collected in Wuhan and 334 bats collected around Wuhan. Consequently, eight alphacoronaviruses were identified in raccoon dogs, while nine betacoronaviruses were found in bats. Notably, the newly discovered alphacoronaviruses shared a high whole-genome sequence similarity (97.9 per cent) with the canine coronavirus (CCoV) strain 2020/7 sampled from domestic dog in the UK. Some betacoronaviruses identified here were closely related to previously known bat SARS-CoV-related viruses sampled from Hubei province and its neighbors, while the remaining betacoronaviruses exhibited a close evolutionary relationship with SARS-CoV-related bat viruses in the RdRp gene tree and clustered together with SARS-CoV-2-related bat coronaviruses in the M, N and S gene trees, but with relatively low similarity. Additionally, these newly discovered betacoronaviruses seem unlikely to bind angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 because of the deletions in the two key regions of their receptor-binding motifs. Finally, we did not find SARS-CoV-2 or its progenitor virus in these animal samples
Then there is the matter of the furin cleavage site that does not appear naturally in other beta coronaviruses, but is in SARS-CoV-2
- False. Many different betacoronaviruses demonstrate furin cleavage sites.
I saw part of the early research on the epidemiology in Wuhan, and the pattern of spread was along rail lines in Wuhan away from the WIV and clustered around the WIV. There were no clusters where one would have expected them if there was a natural origin, as per the Senate report.
- Let's see this data.
I concluded in January 2020 that something was fishy.
- Since there was zero hard data to go with in January 2020, this confirms that your motivations are entirely driven by bias and unrelated to fact-gathering to any degree.
but that is still just a theory.
One theory that was not censored, yet promoted by bad actors. That's the entire point of what I am saying, and you purposely ignore.
There should be no reason to have to drag Fauci to court to confirm what other scientists were censored for saying. Other than that Fauci is a bad actor representing even worse actors.
Many different betacoronaviruses demonstrate furin cleavage sites.
Not this particular one. The one patented by Moderna.
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@Greyparrot
Furin cleavage sites occurred independently for multiple times in the evolution of the coronavirus family, supporting the natural occurring hypothesis of SARS-CoV-2.
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@FLRW
Not this particular one. The one patented by Moderna. (US 9587003)
but that is still just a theory.One theory that was not censored, yet promoted by bad actors.
- The bat origin theory was not censored. Only the lab theory seems to attract the bad actors.
That's the entire point of what I am saying, and you purposely ignore.
- You said "The biggest objection I have to the natural origin hypothesis is the lack of an intermediate animal" but the natural origin theory does not require an intermediary species so your objection is without merit. Can't tell what you think I'm ignoring.
There should be no reason to have to drag Fauci to court to confirm what other scientists were censored for saying.
- You're so fucking vague. What scientist was censored by the government for saying what? Provide some evidence.
Other than that Fauci is a bad actor representing even worse actors.
- In what sense was Fauci a bad actor? Who do you think Fauci represents? You are failing to state complete thoughts.
Many different betacoronaviruses demonstrate furin cleavage sites.Not this particular one. The one patented by Moderna.
- Viruses are not patented. I think you are deeply confused.
The bat origin theory was not censored
Exactly.
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@Greyparrot
A scientist insisted Wednesday that Dr. Anthony Fauci is hiding the truth about the U.S. funding of research that could shed light on the origins of the COVID-19 pandemic during the first hearing on the matter.
It never ceases to amaze me how obsessed the political right is with finding out the true origins of COVID and insist that this is of such grave importance that we should all be joining in the search for the “truth”, while downplaying COVID as a hoax or essentially just the flu.
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@Double_R
It never ceases to amaze me that progressives believe the way to progress society is through authoritative censorship.
It never ceases to amaze me that progressives believe the way to progress society is through authoritative censorship.
- but Greyparrot hasn't even tried to establish some example of censorship here.
- OP was pure evil fake news: "vaccines killed hundreds of thousands, the entire medical community keeps it secret."
- GP hasn't even tried to defend (or apologize for) this mentally disturbed lie.
- Then GP prints a NY Post story from Oct saying Fauci will testify. Fauci did testify last week without making much news.
- Then GP prints a story from last summer from a microbiologist who disagrees with the Federal definition of "gain-of-function"
- That's it....Now GP talks about censoreship as if he has provided some example of government censorship but he hasn't.
- If there's some thesis beyond shotgunning some quite silly lies into the air, I can't tell what.
And yet here you are, defending the corrupt establishment yet again. Defending censorship. Nothing changes.
It's fine, Americans will change it without your help.
From this bullshit:
To this:
While I really don't care about the laptop part of the lawsuit, the Covid part actually fucked over millions of Americans directly with the censorship of science that would have most certainly not allowed the government to impose vaccine mandates with the unfounded claim that it would lower the chance of contracting and carrying Covid as claimed in the 2021 SCOTUS case.
Maybe USA did not go down as far as China is currently going down the authoritarian rabbithole, it still went way, way too far.
And yet here you are, defending the corrupt establishment yet again. Defending censorship. Nothing changes.
From this bullshit:
- This has nothing to do with censorship so let's note that you're changing the subject a FOURTH time.
- I'm OK with requiring medical professionals to get all appropriate vaccines including mumps, measles, flu, COVID for the exact same reason I'm OK with requiring food workers to wash their hands after shitting. Hygeine 101.
While I really don't care about the laptop part of the lawsuit,
- SInce your insane defense of that Russian Intel campaign was the reason you blocked me two years ago and you are finally now no longer willing to stand by Putin/Trump's lies in this regard, you should be willing to summon the moral courage and basic sportsmanship to unblock me.
the Covid part actually fucked over millions of Americans directly with the censorship of science that would have most certainly not allowed the government to impose vaccine mandates with the unfounded claim that it would lower the chance of contracting and carrying Covid as claimed in the 2021 SCOTUS case.
- what science? This is the fourth time I've requested info from you in this forum. We both know it goes against your nature, but try to engage honestly and substantiate your claims with real evidence.
- The claim that vaccinations lower the chance of contracting and surviving COVID is well founded in science;
- ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITTANICA: COVID-19 vaccines were effective not only in preventing severe illness but also in limiting the spread of SARS-CoV-2. The vaccines also generally were safe.
Claims Greyparrot has run away from in just this forum:
- Fauci going to court because COVID vaccinne injured and killed hundreds of thousands (100% lie)
- "I will never forget the skewed graphs that our public health department put out that had huge red bars for cases, and down below in black were tiny bars that showed the deaths"
- He will also never produce the skewed graphs when asked, apparently.
- Let's assume GP was just making shit up here.
- I won't forget the local nurses going on tv and pretending that footage from NYC was actually their hospital, and they were on the front lines of this huge catastrophe, and yet when I go by the hospital you can see almost no evidence of activity at all. Census at the hospitals were 30% of capacity.
- If true, these claims should be easy to document- let's get that TV footage and a date. Let's see those hospital census numbers.
Greyparrot's blind loyalty to evil men requires him to assert many fake and phony facts as true. Providing evidence that those claims are fake is not censorship and never will be.
Tim Pool describes how people in China won't tolerate this bullshit either indefinitely.
COVID for the exact same reason I'm OK with requiring food workers to wash their hands after shitting. Hygeine 101.
Darwin has a special award for you allowing a vaxxed nurse to breathe all over you.
Darwin has a special award for you allowing a vaxxed nurse to breathe all over you.
- Yep it is called life.
- Mortality rates among unvaccinated Americans this last summer were ten times the mortality rates of vaccinated Americans.
Yep it is called life
Lol, what an edgelord. Willing to let an infected vaxxed nurse breathe on him just to support his favorite big pharma corp while also condoning the censorship that objectively led to massive collateral damage from bad policies
Censored talk exposing infected vaxxed people spreading Covid around debunking the lies from Fauci and government health agencies is no longer censored. Good luck getting the St Fauci tattoo removed. I heard China is looking for obedient footsoldiers in their censorship war though.