What is morality

Author: keithprosser

Posts

Total: 199
#151
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,551
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Fallaneze
But you made the claim that the molester would not experience increased seretonin levels as a result of the molestation, a claim that requires evidence in order to be accepted as true.
Look at the list of behaviors that contribute to serotonin production.  None of these are compatible with molestation.

Serotonin does not cause sexual climax or a thrill or a rush.  Dopamine does.

There's also a huge amount of subjectivity in determining "excessive" levels of these chemicals.
This is not true.  Dopamine levels that lead to addiction cause brain damage.  This is not a matter of opinion.

For me, when your moral theory entails that climaxing on babies isn't morally wrong, that's enough for me to pass on it.
Straw-man.  Nobody ever suggested such a thing.  You have fabricated this horrifying example from your own imagination.
#152
Fallaneze
Fallaneze's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 948
2
2
5
Fallaneze's avatar
Fallaneze
2
2
5
You can get rich by selling cars and selling planes. This does not mean that you can only get rich by selling cars and planes.

You can get increased seretonin from being social and empathetic. This does not mean that you can only get increased seretonin levels from being social and empathetic. The claim was that molestation does not increase seretonin levels, which is a claim that hasn't been evidenced. 

Previously you claimed that excessive seretonin levels were morally good. Does this include excessive seretonin levels where you get seretonin syndrome?



My scenario isn't a strawman, the horrifying example and resulting conclusion follows from your proposed moral framework.






Topic's author
#153
keithprosser
keithprosser's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,052
3
3
3
keithprosser's avatar
keithprosser
3
3
3
-->
@Fallaneze
I refer you to my post on the other thread.


i may or may not post a response to points 1-10 any time soon, but i will be thinking about them!
#154
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,551
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Fallaneze
Functional single nucleotide polymorphisms from the serotonin 1b receptor gene (HTR1B) and 2a receptor gene (HTR2A) were found to be associated with callous-unemotional traits. Serum serotonin level was a significant predictor of callous-unemotional traits; levels were significantly lower in boys with high callous-unemotional traits than in boys with low callous-unemotional traits.[LINK]

The connection between serotonin and criminal activity is quite clear. Criminals have been found to have a smaller frontal cortex and a smaller amygdala. The central amygdala is part of the section of the brain that releases corticosterone. Corticosterone activates the dorsal raphe, which increases serotonin (5-HT). The direct relationship between the amygdala and serotonin can be hindered when the amygdala is reduced in size, as seen in criminals. Criminals produce less serotonin or have serogentonic dysfunction. An abundance of serotonin can also have negative affects on people causing confusion and induced criminal tendencies. On the other hand, non-criminals have a balanced level of serotonin.

Furthermore, impulsive aggression, a characteristic linked with criminals, is explained through the brain being unable to regulate impulsivity.[LINK]

Over time, recurring exposure to high levels of dopamine changes the way the brain produces and processes this essential chemical. Eventually, dopamine-related alterations can lead to the appearance of physical dependence, a state characterized by a reliance on the continued intake of drugs or alcohol in order to function “normally.” In turn, physical dependence forms the necessary conditions for the appearance of substance addiction, which typically creates additional problems, such as recurring cravings for substance use, loss of voluntary control over substance consumption, prioritization of substance-related activities in everyday life and the development of withdrawal symptoms if the baseline requirements of substance intake go unfulfilled.

After completing their experiments, the researchers concluded that, during withdrawal, the brain sharply increases its production of BDNF inside the pleasure center. They also concluded that heightened levels of this protein lead to a somewhat lasting decline in the pleasure center’s dopamine levels. Together, these facts indicate that the release of BDNF is directly related to the brain’s attempts to counteract the oxidative stress caused by the presence of excessive dopamine. The researchers concluded that, unfortunately, the brain releases enough BDNF to produce an overcorrection that intensifies withdrawal symptoms and makes it more likely that a substance user will feel the need to consume more drugs or alcohol in order to offset those symptoms. In turn, this increase in consumption further supports the ongoing brain changes that lead to the establishment of an addiction.[LINK]

That said,

My hypothesis suggests that an Amish morality/lifestyle/culture is pretty close to an instinctive human ideal.

Dopamine spikes anywhere even close to normal "sex" (between loving partners) should be reserved exclusively for normal "sex" (between loving partners).  This is a typical stipulation common among moral systems.

Connect, Contribute, Cope, Cook (CCCC).


1373 days later

#155
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 3,205
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
-->
@keithprosser
Morality is the definition of what must be done to achieve a goal/value,
Though people, societies, nature, have preferences where they prioritize certain goals/values over others,
To the point they would not consider certain goals/values to be morality,
But perhaps this is simply because it is not their goal/value.

People fall into moralities based on nature and nurture,
Their nature and experiences,
Desires and thoughts.

Maybe, I've actually been thinking about this again, for a day or two,
Nice to have forums for peer review of ideas.

#156
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,310
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Lemming
Morality is sort of adherence to a collective idea that certain behaviour is either right or wrong.

In some instances, we collectively agree to contradict an established moral principle.

Which is what I refer to as selective morality.
#157
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,740
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@zedvictor4
AM
--> @Lemming
Morality is sort of adherence to a collective idea that certain behaviour is either right or wrong.

In some instances, we collectively agree to contradict an established moral principle.

Which is what I refer to as selective morality.
This is why society rejects individuals that refuse to conform to established moral principles.
#158
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 3,205
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
-->
@zedvictor4
@Shila
I'd agree that collective moral sets exist,
But see no reason for an individual not to have their own morality.

Such often occurs, true.

#159
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,740
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@Lemming
--> @Shila @zedvictor4
I'd agree that collective moral sets exist,
But see no reason for an individual not to have their own morality.

Shila: This is why society rejects individuals that refuse to conform to established moral principles.

Such often occurs, true.

#160
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,310
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Shila
In the first instance yes.

In the second, we are prepared to collectively contradict ourselves.

Thou shalt not kill, unless it is a necessary requirement of the collective.
#161
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,310
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Lemming
For sure, we all acquire data and establish behaviour and respond to external stimuli accordingly.

Most of our established ideas and behaviour we learn as kids.

Though that is not to say that we will not modify ideas and behaviour as our intellect matures.
#162
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,977
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
-->
@zedvictor4
It would be difficult to judge and ummmmm unusual to look at someone and think ,
(I reckon he / she is a real real moral person. 

Did i ask before. 
What act / s  would it b that when one sees someone doing  it makes some think ( wow they are soooooo moral )  

Imagine thinking someone a really moral.  
I cant picture it. 

The opposite on the other hand , " judging " someone as " immoral " or not moral.

If you seen someone murdering someone like ummm,  real shock horror like.   
You'd think a bunch of things ( 30 )   before you'd think ,   thats very imorral of them.
And
That wasn't very moral of  him / her murdering that person. 

Hang on.
Yet. If you seen someone lighting a fire. Thats more imoral .  But it shouldn't be the first word one goes for to describe a act. 

You've never seen someone being imoral have ya. 

If you seen siblings doing it.  Sorry for the example.  Butttt.
You get to "  thats  immoral "  way before you would if you seen  a violent murder. 

Immoral is a more fucking ya mom and setting shlt on fire type thing.   No,no. 
But.

It will  cost  atleast  five words to get rid of the word moral  "Moral"   

I dont lkke it. 

Whats your thoughts on Lighting fires ? 
You can do this moral or immoral
orrrrrr lighting a fire moraly and accidents and things happen totally imorral and the fire spreads killing a dozen people and a pet shop. 

Torturing puppies is imorral. 
If you seen someone doing it. Straight away in ya head ya think ' thats wrong '  15 th8ngs later immoral 
More so then murder. 
You get to it quicker.    The best way to describe seeing a murder is ( evil )  so thats another shit show right there. 

What is morallity?  
More alley tee ?  A hot beverage you drink in corridors.  ( someone is asking if you would like more alley tea ) 
So. Morality is a question.  

And zed. 
Hey. 
Have a good day pal. 
You don't have to answer my nonsense.  
#163
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,310
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Deb-8-a-bull
Hi Deb.

A multiple-choice question to determine your level of morality


Picture this:

You witness from an unseen position, a six-foot-six-inch brick shit house of a psychopath hacking a lovely old ladies head off.


Do you:

A. Stay hidden but still within danger and try and call the cops without drawing attention to yourself.

B. Sneak away then run like fuck.

C. Introduce yourself as a kung fun expert and invite said psychopath around for a coffee and a chat to discuss his emotional issues.


Am I saying:

A. Fuck morality.

B. She was in her eighties, had a good innings and beheading was probably swifter and kinder than a prolonged demented demise in a nursing home.

C. Don't do it Deb. Survival of the fittest is not immoral.

#164
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,740
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@zedvictor4
--> @Shila
In the first instance yes.

In the second, we are prepared to collectively contradict ourselves.

Thou shalt not kill, unless it is a necessary requirement of the collective
Shila: This is why society rejects individuals that refuse to conform to established moral principles.

Therefore the one who deviates from the collective and chooses to kill will suffer consequences for their action.




#165
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,310
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Shila
Yes, you miss the point for a second time.

Though what you say is obviously true.

But only until circumstances dictate otherwise.

It is sometimes deemed necessary for the collective to be selectively moral.

And of course, the collective is never 100% of everyone.
#166
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,977
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
-->
@zedvictor4
B. 

Along with a prayer so that he doesn't see me.   
Ring police straight away. 


Or,   
D.  Wait for him to go then move in and Make sweet love to the dead corps.  

You can Out immoral him. 
Wich isnt as bad right?
But.
But. 
It is. 


I wouldn't think it is imoral to eat a person.  
 
Im going to try and do something " imorral "  today.  
Wish me luck.

Picture a immoral compass.   ( you can fix them ) 

Hey zed ?
Have you ever had a compass that gets like to wobbly and it stops working good. 
Many hey. ( i dont know why i ask this. ) just remember them.  

Im picturing these   " moral compasses " things are equivalent to that of ,  atomic clocks.
You know ( precision instruments ) 

Souls have morals . (  they go so well together. ) 
#167
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,740
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@zedvictor4
--> @Shila
Yes, you miss the point for a second time.

Though what you say is obviously true.

But only until circumstances dictate otherwise.

It is sometimes deemed necessary for the collective to be selectively moral.

And of course, the collective is never 100% of everyone.
Deb-8-a-bull is a good example of exception to the rule.
#168
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,977
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
It's next to impossible peering through a crowd and spotting someone doing something immoral. 

NEVER have you seen someone commit an act that youve. Seen and " insta deemed " as immoral. 

A killer might help a old lady across a street one day thus completely throwing us off. 
It would be rare to  see a killing.
Not so rare for old lady getting helped. 

It seems. ...   
Morals had to have been drempt up ( made up ) and put in motion.    so peoples and persons  can not " have fun " ( WHEN THEY ( the maker upoers )  ARE NOT THERE )   


The whole concept of morals was made up purely, i mean surly  to stop people having sex with peoples womens.  
So back to the first thing .
People put these things out there soooo people dont partake in  debuchery when they are not . 
Why???
Because you do not want to miss out on that awsome fun . 
High 5. 
 
#169
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,740
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@Deb-8-a-bull
It's next to impossible peering through a crowd and spotting someone doing something immoral. 

NEVER have you seen someone commit an act that youve. Seen and " insta deemed " as immoral. 

A killer might help a old lady across a street one day thus completely throwing us off. 
It would be rare to  see a killing. 
Not so rare for old lady getting helped. 

It seems. ...   
Morals had to have been drempt up ( made up ) and put in motion.    so peoples and persons  can not " have fun " ( WHEN THEY ( the maker upoers )  ARE NOT THERE )   


The whole concept of morals was made up purely, i mean surly  to stop people having sex with peoples womens.  
So back to the first thing .
People put these things out there soooo people dont partake in  debuchery when they are not . 
Why???
Because you do not want to miss out on that awsome fun . 
High 5. 
It is in large packed crowds that pickpocketing, body groping, stabbing, even shooting occurs.

#170
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,977
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
-->
@Shila
Yeah but it really lessons things to cap and class them as imorral. 

Imagine being found guilty of an immoral act.   
It leaves nothing to the imagination 

In jail. 
What are you in here for ?   ' I committed an imorral act ' 

We need to widdle all acts down to . 
Just before something  is classed "moral or imoral"  
#171
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,977
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
It  is not imorral to send a inocent person to jail. 
#172
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,977
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
landmines scream immoral.  
#173
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,977
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
So does Lighting fires. 


Cutting down a tree.is mega  immoral . 
#174
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,977
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
Three minor immoral acts  and you are out rule? 
#175
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,977
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
Upon remembering  that compasses can be moral or immoral  
I just dug up my four compasses,
But no good . ?   
They are all just regular compasses.
That sucks. 






#176
Sidewalker
Sidewalker's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 2,059
3
2
4
Sidewalker's avatar
Sidewalker
3
2
4
-->
@keithprosser
Is there any such thing as morality?  It is clear that if morality is a 'thing' it is not a thing made of atoms.  Nor is it made of 'energy' because if it was it would be possible to use morality to heat water.   Nor can morality be located anywhere in space.

We talk about morality a lot on DA... but what - if anything - are we talking about?

There are plenty of immaterial things we know to exist by the fact that they exert causal influence on the material world (gravity, magnetic fields, etc). It follows that morality has the ontological status of existence as an immaterial thing that is observed to be a causal agent which influences events in the material world.

When we take an honest look at the evolution of Mankind, the human mind reveals itself to be self-transcendent, constantly reaching out beyond the systems boundaries to develop new capabilities. At all times of our evolutionary development the human mind has been at the final boundary between what has already been achieved, and what is still in process of formation. 
 
At some stage of hominid development, our ancestors acquired a brain structure that afforded them access to the mental world of mathematics.  It then became a component of their experiential reality, as much a part of their environment as the land in which they lived, and consequently, they did what animals do, they explored their environment, and what they did was discover the expanding reality in which they lived. We can pontificate all day long as to whether or not that reality ontologically “exists” or is “real”, but the fact remains that it is a part of our realty, it is a feature of our experience and an aspect of the environment we explore.

The kind of consideration in the case of mathematical experience that led us to discover an enriched human environment applies equally to other distinctive forms of human ability. The human experience includes qualities, values, meaning, and purpose, and these ethical intuitions indicate the existence of a moral dimension of reality open to our exploration to discover further humanizing facts about the nature of the reality of our experience. 

Consequently, as we explore our experiential environment we will arrive at moral knowledge in the same way that we arrive at other types of knowledge, by the discernment of underlying principles which are then tested by examining how well those principles align with further observations of the world of our experience.   The simple self-evident experiential reality of a human being is one that is imbued with qualities, values, meaning, and purpose, consequently it is reasonable to accept as fact that we are morally responsible causal agents exploring the moral dimension of reality.
#177
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,310
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Deb-8-a-bull
Good answer.

You cannot out immoral the psychopath.


And eating humans is only immoral if you are a vegan.

And moral compasses have the ability to point in all directions. Especially if you have a magnetic personality.

Hence all the wobbly ones.



And hey, if you want to do something immoral today, go and expose yourself to a Koala.

Just think of all the emotional damage you will cause.


#178
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,310
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Shila
Because the collective is never 100% of everyone, then everyone is always an exception to someone else's rule.
#179
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,977
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
-->
@zedvictor4
Expecially if you can't see me. 

Yeah i am having trouble doing an immoral act . I've got 7 hours. 
Hey ive a female friend with me at the moment. 
I couod like kida SLAPPPPPP  her.    Thats got to be getting close to immoral right. 
HOWEVER.  
Im going to like slap her real real immoral like. Then 
Well. 
Which brings us to the next point. 
Kinky. 
Next thing you know you are like ,   lets say.  Being rewarded for your immoral behavior. 
Thus dirtying the waters. 

I really need that one single act that is the start of being immoral.
So like just considered immoral. 

I could steal like 5 bucks of a good freind. 
And whilst I'm doing it i could be like thinking about his mom. 

I can't help but th8nk,  when i was a teenager I'm sure i was living from one immoral act to the next. 
I wasn't. 

I shouldn't have taken this challenge.
Hey Zed . If i fail this. You'll still talk with me hey? 

Something immoral. 

I have to involve someone else hey ?
 Thats the hardest part. 

if only i was a homosexual.   
No i mean.    ' looks around and starts backing out '

Good game.  
#180
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,977
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
If i can not complete the challenge,  you know what this will mean right. 

Correct. 
Totally without a doubt 100% moral