EV poll

Author: sadolite

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#31
cristo71
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@sadolite
The goal of forcing everyone to drive an EV isn't to save the planet, but restrict your movement on the planet. My opinion of course.
The goal of EVs is to feel as though we are doing something to fight climate change— to virtue signal, in other words. This is evidenced by these facts:

Electricity is largely generated by fossil fuels
Even with fossil fuel generation, the grid cannot currently handle everyone charging EVs overnight simultaneously 
Mining, with its own set of environmental impacts, is required for the batteries
The invasive mining is being minimized in the US, so as to outsource this unPC practice to other countries

But I understand that they are low maintenance and have a lot of pickup, thereby making the virtue signaling rather enjoyable…

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#32
sadolite
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@zedvictor4
Eh, I am not required to have a smart phone. I do have one though. It is practical and useful and serves my needs. An EV will never be affordable or practical let alone serve my needs. But I will be forced to have one in the future and will have to mortgage my house to buy the type of EV that would even come close to serving my needs. 
#33
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@sadolite
For sure.

But we develop needs to match technology.

Prior to the introduction of personal devices, you didn't have a need for them.

Prior to the introduction of the internal combustion engine, people didn't have a need for it.



Material evolution,

One either keeps up with it, or one doesn't.


Enjoy you weekend.


#34
Platypi
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@sadolite
That doesn't really answer the question of whether or not EV's can exist without being subsidized by govt. Internal combustion engines can be scaled to any size also.
Unless demand for fossil fuels miraculously declines in the coming decades, the writing is on the wall for mainstream application of conventional reciprocating piston engines.  If internal combustion engines are hooked directly up to the drivetrain of the future, it would be on account of something radically different.

I think for situations where they won't prove unreliable, electric motors are the most viable means of propulsion that exists today.   This is quite clear to me.  The question that I can't answer is how energy will be stored. 

I don't believe lithium-ion batteries as they are currently produced are 'the future'.  That's not to say it won't happen, but I recognize that billions of people demand personal transportation, and scarcity of resources is a decisive factor as to what remains marketable.  

Some of the governments are actively hording lithium by promoting growth of infrastructure to reduce their dependance on other resources, which is probably reasonable for consideration of national security.  I don't know any details of how well it can be recycled.  Nobody has provided me with good reason to believe that lithium can be extracted and utilized in quantities as large as what is currently expected for aluminum engine blocks and transmissions, in addition to all its alternative applications. 

If it happens that batteries won't become dominant as a means of energy storage, then what will?  
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#35
sadolite
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@Platypi
What makes you think crude oil is not a renewable resource or that we have even scratched the surface of available crude oil that already exists on the planet? Govt actively prevents looking for more. When I was in my 20's I was told ,in no uncertain terms  by the greatest scientific minds to ever exist  that the world would be out of oil in 40 years. Well here I am 60 years old and no shortage of oil. Where is all this oil coming from? Every non organic thing on this earth that is not made of wood or steel is made of crude oil. Quite frankly, if we run out of oil, your worries about the climate, ICE's  and  EV's are trivial compared to a future without crude oil.

#36
Platypi
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@sadolite
We are refining the crude oil that was made long before history into fuel so it can be burned, so I would agree with someone claiming that it is nonrenewable in that context.   Renewable resources can be depleted as well.  The reason I believe modern contentions that we should consider the reserves as finite is because I am impressed by the advent of fracking, and now I believe further improvements will have diminishing returns.  I don't rule out that this may prove inaccurate, but at the same time I'm confident that there's only so many years left of the best reserves.

I haven't said anything about the climate.  I think that fuel prices are going to rise well before we run out of crude oil if demand rises while supply shrinks. 

If the United States were to become economically isolated by large scale international effort, what do think we're going to do?
#37
Reece101
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@sadolite
What makes you think crude oil is not a renewable resource or that we have even scratched the surface of available crude oil that already exists on the planet? Govt actively prevents looking for more
What do you mean, America found oil in the Middle East not too long ago. Yeah, I’m partly being facetious. Truth is, wars happen over oil. You can see that now with Russia and Ukraine. Ukraine found huge deposits of oil just before Russia took Crimea in 2014. Russia is a petrostate after all, and they don’t want competition nextdoor to them. I’m not saying it’s entirely why they invaded.

When I was in my 20's I was told ,in no uncertain terms  by the greatest scientific minds to ever exist  that the world would be out of oil in 40 years. Well here I am 60 years old and no shortage of oil. Where is all this oil coming from?
Scientists convey what data they have at hand. They don’t have a crystal ball to see what the future will bring. Anyway, it’s better to be cautious/safe than sorry when the worlds greatest mind warn you about something. Especially for inti-intellectuals.

Every non organic thing on this earth that is not made of wood or steel is made of crude oil. 
Wood and crude oil are organic, steel is not. Anyway, were you ever taught your three Rs at school? from my quick research, crude oil based rubber is recyclable. And as for plastics there are multiple ways of making them and many can also be recycled.

Quite frankly, if we run out of oil, your worries about the climate, ICE's  and  EV's are trivial compared to a future without crude oil.
Yeah well i’m still pissed off about the horse and buggy.
#38
ebuc
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@zedvictor4
Stuff happens, we move on, the future of personal transport in the short term will be a transition from the internal combustion engine to electric.
More people  { 8 billion currently } = more cars = more traffic congestion = more road rage { ecological dangers }

More people = requires more transport energy resources  = more nukes, more wind, more solar,  more hydro, more mining the of the Earth precious metals { ecological dangers } >>> 50% or great barrier reef coral has vanished  >>> 2022 we saw 14% increase in deforestation of Amazon rainforest = more fishing

More people = more safe food,  safe air,  safe fresh water safe ecology t sustain us

More people = more conflicting needs for limited resources = less privacy = more disease transmission = deperate measures for more and more desperate peoples

More human  =  ______* ? *________
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#39
sadolite
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@Reece101
I will repeat "Quite frankly, if we run out of oil, your worries about the climate, ICE's  and  EV's are trivial compared to a future without crude oil."  Your eyes glaze over and talk about horses and buggies.

"Scientists convey what data they have at hand." Maybe its time science get out of the dooms day prediction business as they have been wrong 100% of the time. 
#40
Reece101
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@sadolite
I will repeat "Quite frankly, if we run out of oil, your worries about the climate, ICE's  and  EV's are trivial compared to a future without crude oil."  Your eyes glaze over and talk about horses and buggies.
You can’t imagine a future without crude oil? That’s pretty sad.

"Scientists convey what data they have at hand." Maybe it’s time science get out of the dooms day prediction business as they have been wrong 100% of the time. 
You’ve been listening to too much Greta.
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#41
sadolite
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@Reece101
I deal in facts not pie in the sky imaginary things.

Greata speaks for science.
#42
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@sadolite
There's science and then there's science fiction.

Hollywood deals with science fiction.

And scientists deal with science.

To ignore science is to bury one's head in the sand.

And also to discredit everything humans have ever achieved.

Things like the refinement of crude oil and the internal combustion engine.

The other thing is, you and I were born at a time when such luxuries were just unquestionably there to have.

And now the tough question is, for how much longer can we just have it.

Scientists have come up with an alternative for us.

It's going to cost though.
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#43
sadolite
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"Scientists have come up with an alternative for us." I stand by my statement that science is almost always wrong about the future. I do not believe EV's are a viable alternative. The alternative is to use every energy source available and I mean every energy source where it is reliable practical and cost effective. Your myopic one size fits all is a fools destination. You still don't acknowledge a world without crude oil. You stick your head in the sand and think everything will just magically be able to be made out of something else. EV's and ICE's are a tiny problem compared to a life without crude oil. You wont have either of them.



#44
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@sadolite
Well. 

Crude oil was first discovered and utilised approximately 2600 years ago.

(Though the effects of natural phenomena related to crude oil may have been witnessed long before that.)

Suffice it to say though, that the human race survived for 200000  - 300000 years without the benefits of burning and refining crude oil.

So I expect that when all natural resources have dried up, we will have come up with other coping strategies.

I think that we are already pretty good at refining oils and other hydrocarbons from plant material.


As for science, well science is probably wrong nine times out of ten, which believe it or not is the nature of the exercise.

Good old trial and error as it were.



N.B.

Nine times out of ten was simply a figure of speech, and in no way meant to be statistically accurate.


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#45
sadolite
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@zedvictor4
"Good old trial and error as it were" Which is why it should never be used to justify govt policy that affects hundreds of millions of lives. I am so sick of science and govt being given a pass when they say "Well it was the best information we had at the time" Screw that BS. If you are going to tell everyone the sky is falling based on that and nothing even remotely happens, you need to rot in prison.
#46
Reece101
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@sadolite
Without science informed government regulation, you would be dead within one week of eating some bad meat. 
#47
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@sadolite
Sorry Mr  S.

But that really does sound like an I fear change and hate paying my taxes rant.


Do you honestly think that every bit of scientifically derived information regarding the global environment is BS, and some sort of conspiracy  designed to keep the working man to heel.
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#48
sadolite
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" I fear change " adhom BS. The facts speak for themselves. You just ignore them. If only there was a way to make everything you own that was made from crude oil instantly disappear. 

#49
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Without science informed government regulation, you would be dead within one week of eating some bad meat. 


I'm never going to let someone with this mentality cook for my family.
#50
Reece101
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@Platypi
Not even a precooked meal?
#51
zedvictor4
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@sadolite
Well that's the point.

Everything that I do own that is made from crude oil will not disappear immediately.

In fact, oil derived plastics will be about for years and years to come.

Though there are already alternatives available. Same with lubricants. Same with combustible compounds.


Though whatever the energy requirement, crude derivatives or green energy, demand will likely out strip supply as population grows.

And non-renewable crude will just not last for ever, and will certainly not be enough to supply demand for much longer.


Whether or not you accept that human influenced global climate change is something that should be taken seriously, is up to you and other conspiracy theorists.

I'm not so cynical.

More fool me perhaps.

Or more fool you.

We will just have to wait and see.

If we can last out till then.


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#52
sadolite
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@zedvictor4
You are right I am wrong, everything made from crude will be made from something else.