I think in 2024, I&#39;m planning on voting democrat down the ticket for the first time in my life

Debates: 5

Posts: 3,304

03.22.2023 03:17PM

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@ILikePie5

You realize the military budget does more than just buy weapons right? It funds R&D.

We don't need military R&D.

I don’t know where the hell you got the 60 billion number from lol. Current student debt is at 1.76 trillion and that’s with tens of thousands not even taking loans.

The Surprising Cost Of Biden’s Free College Tuition Plan (forbes.com) states that free college only costs $23 billion a year.

The military kills terrorists and is there as a deterrent. Should we be sending billions to Ukraine as a blank check? No.

So your pro military when it comes to Iraq terrorists, but not when it comes to Russian terrorists? Your just supporting the current thing man (but for the right wing team).

I do. I called him out for doing things I disagree with.

What has Trump done that you disagreed with that is right wing? He's done some left wing things that you would probably criticize him for (telling people to get vaccinated, appointing someone for a judicial position because she's a woman). But can name one right wing thing Trump has done that you disagree with?

Illegal immigration is against the law.

So is speeding; I'm not going to kick you out of the country over that.

You can be tribalistic with any viewpoint. Whether it’s the death penalty or something else.

That's not what tribalism is. Tribalism is consciously or sub consciously accepting an idea not because it's what you actually believe but because it's what a party you subscribed to on another issue supports.

Why shouldn’t values change with new information? It would’ve been good to know that Bush lied about there being WMDs in Iraq right? It would’ve been good to know that the US did the Gulf of Tonkin event no? Sure values can change over time.

If your values changed because of something you learned about Bush, then fine. But I have a feeling if Trump was the first person to say we should go to war with Russia to protect Ukranian freedom and democracy, all the MAGA people would support us getting involved with Ukraine and all the never Trumpers would oppose the war (just like they did for Iraq with Bush). But since the left is so convinced that Trump is a Russian asset, they decided to stand with Ukraine and since the right went from, "America should be the world's police" to , "America first", the parties switched on war.

You can be AMERICA First and still have a high military budget. They aren’t exclusive.

The US military budget funds the military helping out other countries. America has more guns in civilian hands than any other country; no country is going to invade us.

But Indy’s like you, they change every two years.

About every 2 weeks to a month, I change my stance on about 1 issue. But I believe more or less the same thing that I did 1.5 years ago. The opinions aren't 100% in line, but they are close enough.

Poor kids can go to school for free if they get the required grades and everything.

This is true, but I don't expect every student to get a 4.0 GPA at their high school. It's not fair that the elderly got pratically free college when they were my age and I don't.

Race should not be a determinant though.

I agree.

Cause there weren’t majors like gender studies back then lol.

So then have free college and get rid of woke majors like gender studies, lesbian dance theory, and critical race theory.

Not to mention you have dropped at least 15 arguments of mine by now.

Which ones did I drop? It wasn't on purpose, I swear.

Joe Biden and Dems wanted vaccine mandates but were okay with illegals crossing the border who didn’t have vaccines.

I don't want anyone forced to have the COVID vaccine in their body. It seems the GOP wants a vaccine mandate for the undocumented but not for native born citizens.

Cartels are behind illegal immigration.

There are 11 million undocumented immigrants in the country; I don't think the vast majority of them were brought by cartels.

In a party less society, a person can have those beliefs. You saying they can’t is laughable.

In a party less society, about 1/8 people would hold all 3 beliefs, but in a society with parties, it's about 1/2. The other half disagree on all 3. Where are the people for the remaining 6 combinations? They barely exist because people want to be tribalistic (and that's bad).

That's not good and it should stop.
Good luck trying lol. You’re doing it right now.

How am I doing it? I go after both parties.

Every 2 years you’re going to change all your values to support the opposite party, okay lol.

I'm not a future predictor, but I think in 2 years, I will agree with at least 70% of what I believe now.

#32

Debates: 2

Posts: 12,749

03.22.2023 04:08PM

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@Tejretics

Not sure which 2008 Democrats you’re talking about, but changing your views on something (e.g., whether to recognize trans people for their gender identity) is different than being a hypocrite -- Republicans didn’t change their minds on abortion, they just stood by Herschel Walker anyway; they didn’t change their minds on violence against children, they just stood by Roy Moore anyway.

So it’s okay for Americans to change their views but Herschel Walker can’t? Roy Moore also recently won a defamation lawsuit and he actually lost to Doug Jones, so not really a good argument. If you’re arguing that Dems aren’t hypocrites, you’re wrong.

Almost all of the national Democratic establishment pushed Northam to step down immediately, including Biden. Which Republicans did that about Moore and Walker, or about other candidates who’ve done equally discriminatory things (e.g., Representative Greene’s past anti-Semitism)?

But did he step down? No. Did voters hold them accountable? No. You remember Steve King from Iowa? He lost the primary to Randy Feenstra. Republicans holding people accountable. If you’re going to talk about MTG let’s also talk about Ilhan Omar and Rashida Tlaib.

Not sure how this is “hypocrisy,” and not clear why the fact that others didn’t get something (had to work hard to pay off student loans) means no one else should in the future.

Cause it’s unfair? Why should someone who worked two jobs to pay off their own student heavily subsidize student loans of people who willingly entered the contracts to pay for gender studies. If you don’t have the finances to go to college there are other profession where you earn just as much if not more.

To be clear, I thought student loan forgiveness was a bad idea in an inflationary period (and I opposed it, quite vocally), but I’m truly confused by this -- most people whose student loans are targeted by forgiveness programs are middle class, and there’s clearly reasonable arguments for it.

Like what? Increasing the deficit by 1.3 trillion? It’s illogical. If you can’t afford college and still want to go take out loans. If you don’t then go to trade school. Have your parents help you out. Next thing you know we’re going to make mortgages free too cause houses are expensive.

#33

Debates: 2

Posts: 12,749

03.22.2023 04:24PM

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@TheUnderdog

We don't need military R&D.

You’re being ignorant. When China gets a Sixth Gen fighter jet to destroy our Air Force come back to me and tell me military R&D is not needed.

If your values changed because of something you learned about Bush, then fine. But I have a feeling if Trump was the first person to say we should go to war with Russia to protect Ukranian freedom and democracy, all the MAGA people would support us getting involved with Ukraine and all the never Trumpers would oppose the war (just like they did for Iraq with Bush).

I don’t want new wars. Trump doesn’t control me as I said earlier.

But since the left is so convinced that Trump is a Russian asset, they decided to stand with Ukraine and since the right went from, "America should be the world's police" to , "America first", the parties switched on war.

Again you’re assuming things about people.

The US military budget funds the military helping out other countries.

So we should pull out of NATO? Okay lol. Again, you’re being ignorant. Should aid to Pakistan be stopped? Absolutely. I’m not saying that everything the military budget spends on is good; I said clearly at the beginning we need to cut waste.

America has more guns in civilian hands than any other country; no country is going to invade us.

You can’t predict the future. And the reason why no one would invade us is cause we have the top military in the world, not cause everyone has guns lol.

About every 2 weeks to a month, I change my stance on about 1 issue. But I believe more or less the same thing that I did 1.5 years ago. The opinions aren't 100% in line, but they are close enough.

But that’s my point. You’re not sticking to your values if you change your opinion every time an election happens. You have to have some moral beliefs that are immovable.

This is true, but I don't expect every student to get a 4.0 GPA at their high school. It's not fair that the elderly got pratically free college when they were my age and I don't.

Then do they really want to go to school? You don’t need at 4.0 to go to college. Also the times your grandparents lived in were different. Social Security wasn’t insolvent cause baby boomers were booming. Entitlement spending in certain cases didn’t exist. It’s a false equivalency to compare them to us when you’re getting more benefits than they had.

So then have free college and get rid of woke majors like gender studies, lesbian dance theory, and critical race theory.

You cannot do that either cause Dems would oppose you lol. That’s my point. You can claim to be an independent all you want. Both bases are going to oppose your “middle” policy. And either way private institutions can teach whatever they want.

I don't want anyone forced to have the COVID vaccine in their body. It seems the GOP wants a vaccine mandate for the undocumented but not for native born citizens.

No one said that. We are pointing out the hypocrisy of the Biden administration. We want no illegal immigration and no vaccine mandates. Dems want the opposite which is impossible.

There are 11 million undocumented immigrants in the country; I don't think the vast majority of them were brought by cartels.

Sure but if they came through the Southern Border a lot of them were. I don’t think there should be mass deportations. But if you’re caught committing some type of crime, you should be deported.

In a party less society, about 1/8 people would hold all 3 beliefs, but in a society with parties, it's about 1/2. The other half disagree on all 3. Where are the people for the remaining 6 combinations? They barely exist because people want to be tribalistic (and that's bad).

Thats literally not how it works lol. Youre assuming correlation = causation. Parties don’t cause morals. Morals cause parties.

How am I doing it? I go after both parties.

Yet you still vote for one party…

I'm not a future predictor, but I think in 2 years, I will agree with at least 70% of what I believe now.

And that’s the problem. You’d never survive in a zombie apocalypse if you don’t have a clear tribe. Anyways I’m gonna happily end this discussion. I just wanted to point out that voting Democrat just cause Republicans are hypocrites does not acknowledge that Dems are hypocrites as well and therefore it’s a false criteria.

Topic's author

#34

Debates: 5

Posts: 3,304

03.24.2023 04:21PM

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@ILikePie5

You’re being ignorant. When China gets a Sixth Gen fighter jet to destroy our Air Force come back to me and tell me military R&D is not needed.

America has enough nukes to wipe out all of China. As long as we have them, China won't invade us or even attack us out of fear of nuclear retaliation.

I don’t want new wars. Trump doesn’t control me as I said earlier.

So you don't want wars, but you want to increase the military budget? The military's whole job is to fight wars (and they are offensive wars because as long as America has nukes, no country is going to invade us).

Again you’re assuming things about people.

That's why the left wants to help Ukraine; because they believe Trump is a Russian asset. It's not like they want to help Taiwan from Chinese invasion as badly.

You can’t predict the future. And the reason why no one would invade us is cause we have the top military in the world, not cause everyone has guns lol.

It's because we have nukes and armed civilians. Nukes make up a tiny portion of the military budget. There are countries that have a very small military that don't have to worry about getting invaded by China (like Viet nam). China only wants to invade areas where Chinese people make up the majority, and Chinese people don't make up the majority in any state in this country. Just like how Russia only wants eastern Ukraine because of the Russians, but they don't want to invade Mongolia.

But that’s my point. You’re not sticking to your values if you change your opinion every time an election happens. You have to have some moral beliefs that are immovable.

For me, some beliefs are less movable than others. Like I'm very pro death penalty for murderers and rapists, I want ICE abolished, I think Affirmative action is racist, I think white privilege is a myth, I think the wars should end since they kill many people and cost a lot of money, I think dating should be banned for anyone under 21(to reduce the abortion rate), and I think the US debt should get paid off as quickly as feasible (I figured out how to do it in 2 years). I think having a 100% immovable belief is not being open minded. I'm relatively open on abortion as I'm not sure if a zygote or embryo is a human being, climate change (I think it's a serious problem but politicians are hypocrites when it comes to the issue), I'm open on transgenderism (you'll have a hard time convincing me Samantha Lux or Dawn Marie are men).

Also the times your grandparents lived in were different.

How so? Why do they get free college and Gen Z doesn't (I am anti gender studies majors)?

You cannot do that either cause Dems would oppose you lol.

The question isn't if Dems would oppose free college while getting rid of woke majors, the question is would YOU oppose that?

Sure but if they came through the Southern Border a lot of them were. I don’t think there should be mass deportations. But if you’re caught committing some type of crime, you should be deported.

The GOP wants massive deportations, so I'm glad your calling out the GOP on an issue where you disagree. It depends on the crime. If it's murder or rape, you should be killed, not deported. If it's smoking weed, you should be left alone by the state. Neither situation calls for a deportation in my book.

Thats literally not how it works lol. Youre assuming correlation = causation. Parties don’t cause morals. Morals cause parties.

What common theme is present in all 3 of those issues? Like if someone was pro life and pro gun control their common theme is they want to save lives. If someone is pro choice and anti gun control, their common theme is freedom. What common theme exists for being anti free college, anti Affirmitive action, pro deportations, and anti vacciene mandates? It's not freedom; being pro deportations is not pro freedom. It's not safety, being anti vacciene mandate is not pro saftey. It's not equality, being pro deportation isn't pro equality. What's the common theme for all conservative beliefs?

Yet you still vote for one party…

I've voted for both parties in the last election. I voted dem for my state rep for a reason I forgot and GOP for my governor because of his A rating from the NRA.

You’d never survive in a zombie apocalypse if you don’t have a clear tribe.

We don't live in a zombie apocolapse; we live in a society that has policies. And I don't know why you want me to be in a tribe; if I picked being in the socialist tribe, you would cancel me. Be happy that I agree with you some of the time.

Anyways I’m gonna happily end this discussion.

It's fine if you don't want to continue, but I'm still going to respond.

#35

Debates: 4

Posts: 23,044

03.24.2023 04:29PM

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@TheUnderdog

The military's whole job is to fight wars...

Absolutely not. The military exists so we do NOT have to fight wars. You have been listening to way too much NPR propaganda. This is so off base from reality. If people knew every dollar they sent to the military was going to be used to kill people 10,000 miles away instead of keeping others from killing them, people with a conscience would stop paying taxes immediately.

Most normal nations have militaries that rarely ever see conflict.

Topic's author

#36

Debates: 5

Posts: 3,304

03.24.2023 04:31PM

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@Greyparrot

The military exists so we do NOT have to fight wars.

We have nukes for that. No country is going to invade a nuclear power. It's why Russia was only able to invade Ukraine after Ukraine gave their nukes to Russia.

You have been listening to way too much NPR propaganda.

I don't watch NPR.

#37

Debates: 4

Posts: 23,044

03.24.2023 05:33PM

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@TheUnderdog

No country is going to invade a nuclear power.

It will be a first for Biden in a long list of firsts.

Topic's author

#38

Debates: 5

Posts: 3,304

03.24.2023 06:14PM

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@Greyparrot

Are you saying Biden is going to invade a nuclear power? He hasn't done so yet.

#39

Debates: 4

Posts: 23,044