so when the bad guys have guns, it makes sense for the good guys to have some too
also a weapon is a form of self defense
also a firearm does not kill someone 100% of the time
also thank you this website seems very fun
Guns don't kill people, people kill people
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@cristo71
The economic argument is half-baked.
1. If you're going to make an argument about the law of supply, you should also take into account the law of demand. Higher prices will make business profitable, and therefore more people will get in on the action, increasing the supply. According to the laws of supply and demand, when supply increases but demand remains constant, prices fall.
At best the prices would only work as a deterrent temporarily, until an equilibrium is reached. While the prices will likely still be slightly higher in the end, it won't be enough to deter black market sales, not by anything significant.
2. Demand may not be lower, even when the prices are high. While the prices will affect the demand, it won't be the only factor. Consider the citizens' supply of guns. If they just got their guns confiscated, they'll have none, and they're going to be in the market for new ones.
In addition, if a country cannot trust their people overall with firearms, and they take them away, there will be people who have never owned a gun that will be motivated to get one upon seeing the government do something so tyrannical.
Finally, criminals that do buy guns can cause more havoc now that their victims are unarmed. This will also cause many citizens to turn to the black market.
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@Mharman
1. If you're going to make an argument about the law of supply, you should also take into account the law of demand. Higher prices will make business profitable, and therefore more people will get in on the action, increasing the supply. According to the laws of supply and demand, when supply increases but demand remains constant, prices fall.At best the prices would only work as a deterrent temporarily, until an equilibrium is reached. While the prices will likely still be slightly higher in the end, it won't be enough to deter black market sales, not by anything significant.
Well, I was planning on citing what should have been Australia’s ever shriveling black market after their gun buyback program and found a couple of interesting articles. The older one supports my contention of rising prices, but it also acknowledges that criminals still find workarounds:
“Black market guns triple in price”
The more recent one tends to support your contention, that criminals and black markets find a way eventually:
“Research suggests it is easier than ever for criminals to get guns illegally in Australia”
So, well played…
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@cristo71
Yeah. What I find interesting about this is the latter article makes mention of legal ways to obtain a gun in Australia, showing that it wouldn't even happen with a complete gun ban, it happens easily with even "common sense" gun control measures.
Also, this part from the article is interesting:
Professor Bright said Australia's illegal firearm problems not only needed policing solutions, but also directed action to change embedded culture and behaviour.He pointed towards a Queensland government-funded program designed to help men leave the criminal life as an example."The task is: How do you make firearms less appealing to young men? How do you provide young men with alternative dispute resolution strategies that don't involve having guns?" Professor Bright said."How do you provide opportunities for men currently in the criminal life to get out of it if they want to?"
The idea that the gun violence problem in Australia is a product of cultural issues mirrors exactly what I was saying about how gang culture in the US is responsible for so many of our gun deaths.
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@Mharman
The idea that the gun violence problem in Australia is a product of cultural issues mirrors exactly what I was saying about how gang culture in the US is responsible for so many of our gun deaths.
Yes, I heard a podcaster make the interesting (and sad) observation that gangs exist in order to protect kids from what gangs themselves cause… because gangs often require that a murder must be performed to be initiated into the gang… for protection. It’s vicious.
Our publicized mass shootings are a big impetus for less gun availability and “assault weapons” bans because it is often a person with a clean record and no criminal underworld ties who commits them. But the most commonly used weapon in mass shootings statistically is the semi auto pistol, which happens to be very popular for self defense.
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@Lucifer
so when the bad guys have guns, it makes sense for the good guys to have some tooalso a weapon is a form of self defensealso a firearm does not kill someone 100% of the timealso thank you this website seems very fun
You didn't tag me so I just saw this.
Correct, *when* the bad guys have guns. If our laws regarding guns weren't so ridiculously laxxed this would be the case far less frequently
I never denied that guns provide self defense, I pointed out that it's capabilities expand far beyond that to a point where it absolutely encroaches on the rights of others
No one is claiming guns work 100% of the time.
You're welcome
Pretty hilarious to call an idea "half-baked" then invoke a bogeyman tyrannical government that it might be so. Supply tightens where manufacturing is complicated. Demand tightens where there is no reasonable utility. That article is prison melodrama. The most laughable of anecdotal evidence. The fact remains, Australian gun deaths and homicide in general plummeted after their gun ban.
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@Double_R
ones choices reflect on their actions, therefore there are no rights being taken away when a gun is used in self defense
also banning guns would do absolutely nothing, given that there is a large amount of guns in the us, and i highly doubt a lot of the gun owners would just hand them over nicely
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@Lucifer
So in other words; our gun policies are so bad that the country is beyond repair, therefore we should just do nothing. Not a very convincing argument.
No one is talking about going door to door and taking everyone's guns, that's just a tired strawman the right invented because it cannot address real, actual gun safety arguments.
Plus, if law abiding gun owners are so hell bent on holding onto their guns, then they won't be giving the guns they have to the "bad guys".
Your premise here is also just plain false. Banning or severely limiting gun sales will make guns harder to get. Making things harder to get means the next would-be perpetrator will be that much less likely to have a gun. This is basic common sense.
But worst is your point that no one's right are being taken away *when* a gun is used in self defense. First of all, your cherry picked conditional "when" statement is only a small piece of the debate. Guns are very often used for more than self defense. The potential for this impacts the safety of everyone around the person carrying it. That's a fact.
Second, even when it's used for self defense others still get hit. A few years ago there was a shooting at the Empire State Building. It was first reported as a mass shooting because there were multiple injuries. After things calmed down and we learned more, it turns out a man pull a gun out in front of the police and they pulled their guns out at him and fired multiple rounds each. The man never fired a shot, every injury suffered was from a police bullet fired in self defense.
This is the reality guns and only guns bring to the table, there are no innocent bystanders resulting from a knife. The idea that we shouldn't treat guns the same way we treat every other product out there which regularly become key enabling factors in unnecessary deaths is ludacris.
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@Double_R
i didnt say we should do nothing
and banning gun sales will let people have access to illegal weapons
in case you were not aware, guns can be easily made
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@Lucifer
Banning guns sales will "let" people have access to illegal guns? What are you talking about?
Yes I'm aware guns can be made. If we were a sane country we would outlaw that and regulate the tools used to make them. But we're not a sane country, so we'll do nothing.
a lot of the of the tools used to make guns are also used to make other everyday objects
and banning guns will make illegal weapons more popular.