Debate with Nyxified over transgender identity

Author: Public-Choice

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#91
whiteflame
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@Sir.Lancelot
Rational is derailing the thread and threatened me openly. 
Can you tell him to stop bullying me and Public? He’s hurting my feelings. 😢

He’s gaslighting and harassing me!

I know this is meant to be sarcastic, but can we just quit it with the back-and-forth here? I get that you want to focus on the debate being proposed by Public-Choice and Nyx, but RM is allowed to suggest a debate with him as well, so just let it be at that. Whether someone decides to take him up on it or not, there's no reason to engage with him like this.
#92
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@whiteflame
Though I’m sure it doesn’t help that me and RM have beef, my concern isn’t with RM specifically, him debating Nyx, or the separate viewpoints. 

My main concern at the moment was the thread devolving into people dogpiling Nyx because of her gender. If people agree with Public and want to discuss it with Nyx, I’m okay with that. 

But pages 1-2 are just TWS and Rational targeting Nyx specifically. It hasn’t gotten so bad that the mods have to intervene, but that’s primarily what my frustration was focused on at the time of the post. 
#93
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@Sir.Lancelot
Though I’m sure it doesn’t help that me and RM have beef, my concern isn’t with RM specifically, him debating Nyx, or the separate viewpoints. 

My main concern at the moment was the thread devolving into people dogpiling Nyx because of her gender. If people agree with Public and want to discuss it with Nyx, I’m okay with that. 

But pages 1-2 are just TWS and Rational targeting Nyx specifically. It hasn’t gotten so bad that the mods have to intervene, but that’s primarily what my frustration was focused on at the time of the post. 
That's fine, but I would prefer you not enhance existing personal beef between you two in the process. It's not helping anything.

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#94
Public-Choice
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@RationalMadman
Does the title of the forum post say "let's all debate transgenderism" or does it say "debate with Nyxified over transgender identity"?

Because if you're debating transgenderism then you're being pretty off-topic...

If your name isn't Nyxified, or your comments are not related to the DEBATE OVER TRANSGENDERISM WITH NYXIFIED, then please take your off-topic microaggressions somewhere else.
#95
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@whiteflame
I'm not going to be civil with him if he's going to derail a thread by making passive, indirect attacks on another user because of their gender identity.
Specifically when he says things like.:

No comment.

Everything about this debate is wrong. Everything.
It is the only mental disorder where the delusions are deeply, truly encouraged to the point society and even science bends backwards for it.

This debate is going to send Nyxified on a reaffirmation cycle. This is not how to convince any transgender of anything.

Read her profile.
Or when he begins talking down to people.

Yes it concretely does but Gender Dysphoria doesn't always mean that you transition from MtF or FtM due to the they/them region between genders, as well as the fact that some with it switch 'in and out' depending on the week or sometimes day.

Keep trying.
He's not discussing his beliefs against transgender ideology.
He's making it about Nyx specifically.

If he wants to debate Nyx, then he should dm her, make a challenge, or open up a separate thread for it.
Should he choose to challenge her in this thread, then there's nothing wrong with me reminding him that the topic of the thread is between Public and Nyx.
He's allowed to conduct himself that way if he chooses, but I'm not going to enable it by refusing to call him out on it.
(I would've been more respectful about him challenging her, if all comments from him preceding it in this thread weren't passive attacks.)

This has nothing to do with my personal views of RM, or our current problems with each other.
This has everything to do with my frustration of him carelessly sabotaging a thread.

All back and forths are decisively dependent on how he chooses to act. If he wants a respectful discussion of why the transgender ideology makes no sense, I would have no problem being cordial about it.

If he wants to be passive aggressive and condescending, then I have zero issue with stooping to that level. The fact that he needs the mods to speak on his behalf is him using his entitlement to justify his insecurities.
#96
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@Public-Choice
Perhaps we can arrange for you to discuss the terms of the debate with Nyx in dms or we can have a group discussion on Discord.
#97
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@Sir.Lancelot
I don't think it does any good to engage with RM on this. If you find that he's derailing the thread, then responding to him on that derailment is only going to put more focus on what he's saying. It's up to Nyx to decide whether to engage with him, and if she'd rather not, then she doesn't have to respond at all and RM eventually goes away.

As for calling him out on it, I don't think that requires engaging in personal attacks. If you want to call out what he's doing, be my guest, though I don't think it's valuable to add insults, even if you feel he's being insulting. I'm not defending his choices either.
#98
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@Nyxified
@Public-Choice
Where the debate?
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#99
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@Nyxified
@Bones
Have we actually agreed on all the terms yet?
#100
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@Public-Choice
I'm pretty sure we have. We already agreed on the definitions and resolution earlier iirc.

We agree on a list of judges as well (I think).

Again: it is my preference to let Public make the debate as that just makes more sense to me, but it really doesn't matter.

I'm good to go whenever you are, homie.
#101
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@Public-Choice
@Sir.Lancelot
I am as responsible for derailing this thread as anyone else. While I in many ways feel almost obligated to respond to claims about trans people that I believe are harmful and untrue (being trans myself and seeing as, if I do not, those claims may be allowed to fester). I almost see it as a responsibility to engage with these claims as to avoid anyone perceiving them as unassailable fact. If I do not provide an alternative viewpoint, I fear this site just becomes an anti-transgenderism echo-chamber. I do not want to seem avoidant or scared to debate any specific thing or else people will assume I cannot defend my beliefs.

I do not mean for this post to sound melodramatic or as if I'm apologizing for some big mistake or something (because this really is not a big deal), but I do apologize to Public and the soon-to-be judges for having this be dragged out by trying to argue with things irrelevant to the topic at hand. It was my belief I could simultaneously have separate discussions while also continuing with the debate setup, but it clearly detracted focus from it significantly.

I thank Lance for pointing out the very obvious personal attacks that have happened throughout this thread. I've gotten used to it (this is the norm for RMM anyways), and I am fully capable of withstanding any dogpiling, but it's still ~a little shitty~ that this is something I must withstand at all.

I do not want my choice to ignore someone to be misconstrued as me being unable to defend my identity. Getting over that concern is a skill I should have by now nonetheless.
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#102
Public-Choice
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@Nyxified
Can you provide a summary of what we have agreed upon?

So much has happened lol
#103
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@Nyxified
Show me the personal attacks to you.
#104
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@Nyxified
TWS personally attacked you, where did I?
#105
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@Nyxified
In your opinion why did Finland and Sweden rapidly outlaw conversion via puberty blockers (let alone surgery) for teens despite being among the first to trial run it?

These are 2 nations I approve of as sane and stable versions of progressivism, while I have slight issues with both it's nuanced.