DART Jury Trial System Signups: DART v. RationalMadman

Author: Logical-Master

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#31
bsh1
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@Logical-Master
Unfortunately, I can't agree. The purpose of a trial is to put the user on trial--ergo, to put their actions and character through the ringer. Trials are not permitted, nor will they be permitted in the foreseeable future.
#32
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@bsh1

Trials will be deleted and considered call-out threads, resulting in a mod response commensurate with any other call out thread.
That's dis-appointing... :/
#33
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@bsh1
The purpose of a trial is to put the user on trial--ergo, to put their actions and character through the ringer.
Surely the purpose of a trial is to provide an opportunity for someone to defend theselves before they are punished unjustly? 

i just think it's too much fuss over a few days of not posting.  A ban is a great opportunity to find someting more worthwhile!

#34
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@bsh1
The purpose of a trial is to put the user on trial--ergo, to put their actions and character through the ringer.
What do you mean by putting them through the ringer, because that doesn't sound so bad. It definitely sounds like a more professional way to talk about someone and consider both sides in a well articulated argumentative format, than what's already being done in other threads publicly. Also the bearing of this seems to have no consequence as you obviously aren't forced to act on whatever the outcome is, seeing as it is a mere experiment. Is there any way to convince you to allow him to hold something like this, or have you already made up your mind that any thread he makes will be instantly deleted regarding the trial?

#35
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I tend to agree that if this was done right it could avoid the mob mentality of bashing a person. I also get that the izbo trial was a disaster, but I agree with LM that the trial might not have been handled and organized in the best way, which seems like it could be easily avoided.
#36
DrChristineFord
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@Logical-Master
I sign up as jury member. 




#37
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@Logical-Master
Only change I would recommend is that the Jury's decisions final decision should maybe be made in private to the judge if it comes to Jury vote. Have them discuss all the different facets, but when it comes down to the actual vote, have them submit it privately so it takes away the worry that someone was pressured into a decision.
#38
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For clarification, I am someone who would probably agree with bsh's decision behind the band even though I currently don't know what those reasons are, just from what I have seen of RM's behavior recently. Also I think bsh is a reasonable guy and I don't think the ban was because he's "out to get" anyone or to abuse his power. If he was, he could have just permabanned RM the first time. All this is to say I agree with the idea, but not because I have some agenda to object the ban, which is what I am hoping Logical Master doesn't have with this either. It just seems like an interesting idea. I like that he is suggesting it only as an experiment too, not a proposal. He seems open to understanding that this could fail horribly, and if it does, that it's not even worth proposing as an idea. I'd be interested in seeing the outcome of something like this, even if it isn't specifically RM. 

If bsh's answer is absolutely going to be a "no" we can still do a mock trial with this and just make up a user, or use an old user from Debate.org that is currently no longer active on this site (like YYW, or royalpaladin, or something). 
#39
Castin
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@Logical-Master
I like Rash but I just don't think there's any doubt that what he said this time violated the CoC. I mean, what would be the point? Seems like it would be a lot of sound and thunder just to reach the same outcome.

If it's to give him a chance to publicly defend himself, I agree every member should get that chance, but they can do so in protest threads like this, which basically have a lot of the elements of a trial anyway -- it's just more like it's the moderator's decision that's being put on trial, as much as the banned member's actions. But the banned member is heard, arguments for and against are heard, public opinion is heard, etc.

Protest threads are also a Grade A source of drama, which I imagine is 80% of the reason some of you lot want public trials anyway. Oh, don't be shy.

Obviously the huge difference is the public being in charge of the outcome. But I'll have to completely agree with the mods. I'd be horrified if trials were a thing here... horrified. Granted I've never seen any positive example of them on a website. Guess I'd try to keep an open mind, but my stance as of now is totally against.
#40
ResurgetExFavilla
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The Izbo trial wasn't the only one that took place on DDO. 16K was also put on trial for votebombing and won the trial.  https://www.debate.org/debates/The-16kadams-Trial/1/

People were a bit salty, but the exact opposite of a mob mentality happened. If anything, the mob mentality was dispelled by the trial system.
#41
Castin
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@ResurgetExFavilla
Arguments invalidated by your awful judgment in new profile pic.

Recommend this thread now be a trial of Resurge's profile pic.

Topic's author
#42
Logical-Master
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@Castin
@Lunatic
@ResurgetExFavilla
@DrChristineFord
@Castin


I like Rash but I just don't think there's any doubt that what he said this time violated the CoC. I mean, what would be the point? Seems like it would be a lot of sound and thunder just to reach the same outcome. 
Testing purposes only. To see how a structured trial feature would operate here. Based on that, I think we could determine whether it was worthwhile. It might be a disaster. It might be amazing. Only one way to find out imo! I think every concern that's been raised here could easily be addressed, but that's just me!

@Lunatic

All this is to say I agree with the idea, but not because I have some agenda to object the ban, which is what I am hoping Logical Master doesn't have with this either.
I have no vested interest in RM's fate either way. I've just been seeing a lot of talk about him and his consecutive bans on the main page threads here.

If bsh's answer is absolutely going to be a "no" we can still do a mock trial with this and just make up a user, or use an old user from Debate.org that is currently no longer active on this site (like YYW, or royalpaladin, or something). 
I'm open to something like that if there's enough interest and that kind of thread isn't gonna be deleted on site.

Only change I would recommend is that the Jury's decisions final decision should maybe be made in private to the judge if it comes to Jury vote. Have them discuss all the different facets, but when it comes down to the actual vote, have them submit it privately so it takes away the worry that someone was pressured into a decision.
Good idea!

@DrChristineFord

I sign up as jury member. 
Thanks for the volunteer, but it doesn't look like we're going to be able to conduct this experiment at this time.

@ResurgetExFavilla

I volunteer for Defense Attorney
^Same!

People were a bit salty, but the exact opposite of a mob mentality happened. If anything, the mob mentality was dispelled by the trial system.
Looking at that debate, I think I can agree. The only change I'd make is conducting the Trial in a thread as opposed to the constraints of a debate.
#43
Wylted
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I volunteer as a juror and we can hold the trial offsite. The only 3 people who donate to the patreon are for a test trial so I assume we will get some leeway here. If other members don't like the special treatment they can counteract it by not being moochers.
#44
drafterman
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@Wylted
It's a donation, not a purchase. You should not expect special treatment or favors for being a donater. To even imply it is basically a form of extortion. And before you all late comers I was there first.
#45
DrChristineFord
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@Wylted
@Logical-Master
We could do it on edeb8 or DDO.  I would prefer it if the first trial was not for RM.  It should be a volunteer.  
#46
Wylted
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I'd volunteer. 
#47
DrChristineFord
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@Logical-Master
I volunteer  to keep starting the rm trial here until I get banned, and then the real trial can be about my ban off-site.  Then you get to argue for the trial system. 
#48
DrChristineFord
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@Wylted
I thought of you first, and ur sure to get banned soon, but you'd be more valuable  as juror imo. 
#49
Wylted
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@DrChristineFord
Your ideal of getting banned is actually good. I think on that note you can take the lead on setting up a trial for RM. I think if you substitute some words it could pass. Like call RM "frog" and base the trial off of his actions, but just make them a caricature of his actions or something as a test. It could still get you banned because bsh1 is a (censored by Castin), but it could work
#50
DrChristineFord
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@Wylted
Yes, a trial with euphemisms would be an alternative to a trial off-site.  Personally, I don't follow rm closely enough to create such a caricature, and the effort to shape myself into the sort of nice-language monster bsh could tolerate sounds painful.   
#51
DrChristineFord
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@Wylted
I mean, for me it's all or nothing.  I don't mind getting banned. 
#52
keithprosser
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@bsh1
It's almost a pity that site ownership and moderation are in different hands.  

It would be good if the owner/mod had god-like powers and it was made clear that signing up to DA means accepting that the owner/mod's decisions are final no matter what.  As to trials, if the owner chooses to ask for the members' opinions he/she can do so but the result is always advisory, not binding.

Draconian, yes.   But anyone who doesn't like it can jolly well develop their own site.   Posting and debating here is a privilege, not a right.

#53
DrChristineFord
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@keithprosser
If only people would stop debating issues on this debate site! 
#54
keithprosser
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@DrChristineFord
It's the debating about debating about debating that annoys me!
#55
Castin
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@Logical-Master
How would you address the concern that this would turn every ban into a drawn-out drama circus?
Topic's author
#56
Logical-Master
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@DrChristineFord
@DrChristineFord

We could do it on edeb8 or DDO.  I would prefer it if the first trial was not for RM.  It should be a volunteer.  
I wouldn't be opposed to this. I still have my DDO account. If we could get enough interest going, I'm be happy to do it over there!


I volunteer  to keep starting the rm trial here until I get banned, and then the real trial can be about my ban off-site.  Then you get to argue for the trial system. 

I won't encourage you to do that, but would be happy to make the argument were it to happen!

@Wylted

Your ideal of getting banned is actually good. I think on that note you can take the lead on setting up a trial for RM. I think if you substitute some words it could pass. Like call RM "frog" and base the trial off of his actions, but just make them a caricature of his actions or something as a test. It could still get you banned because bsh1 is a (censored by Castin), but it could work
Theoretically, there shouldn't be an issue with an RM caricature since no one is technically being called out per se, lol.

@keithprosser

It's the debating about debating about debating that annoys me!
Debating about debating about debating is fine. It's the debating about debating about debating about debating about debating that we should strive to avoid.

@Castin

How would you address the concern that this would turn every ban into a drawn-out drama circus?

From what I can tell on DART thusfar, literally every ban is already a drawn-out drama circus. Hell, I wouldn't have even started this thread if not for the litany of threads about RM on the first two pages. My impression was that the mods were not concerned with drama circuses per se, though that too could be addressed by simply plugging trials into a separate sub-forum akin to the other categories (Arts, games, science, politics, religion, etc) and keeping the main page free and clear of "drama." Out of sight out of mind if you will!  Though the only assured way to avoid a drama circus is not to ban anybody. Beyond that, moderate the thread like you would any other!


#57
Vader
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A trial is a fair to decide whether the community is in favor or against him

He was banned once...he's been banned 2x. He should be on trial and should defend himself

#58
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I despise him to the fact I wan't him perma-banned off the site

However I am fair enough to let him defend himself while on trial.

I would like to see his view

#59
keithprosser
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@Castin
How would you address the concern that this would turn every ban into a drawn-out drama circus?
Anyone who complains about a ban (or about a non-ban) gets banned.

#60
Castin
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@Logical-Master
How would you address the concern that this would turn every ban into a drawn-out drama circus?

From what I can tell on DART thusfar, literally every ban is already a drawn-out drama circus. Hell, I wouldn't have even started this thread if not for the litany of threads about RM on the first two pages. My impression was that the mods were not concerned with drama circuses per se, though that too could be addressed by simply plugging trials into a separate sub-forum akin to the other categories (Arts, games, science, politics, religion, etc) and keeping the main page free and clear of "drama." Out of sight out of mind if you will!  Though the only assured way to avoid a drama circus is not to ban anybody. Beyond that, moderate the thread like you would any other!
Heh, I think we both know there would be drama circuses even if no one was banned. Maybe even more.

I can think of several members whose bans didn't stir up much drama. But had they been put on trial, their bans absolutely would have stirred up drama. It's a question of degree. While bans already can cause drama, it's drama about a decision that's already been made and is final. There's a whole other world of drama when the outcome is still up in the air, as in a trial.