The Myth of Satan

Author: Stephen 7 months ago

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Stephen

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Stephen

10.05.2023 11:26AM

I haven't created a thread in the religion forum for some time now as I felt that there isn't actually anyone that wants to discuss the actual scriptures but instead would rather tell us how loving god is, how much he loves us all, gave us free will and such, although the biblical evidence proves otherwise. .. But I feel slightly compelled to do so after a recent (and unwise) ad hominem directed at me which, more or less, suggested that I have nothing left to offer the religion forum.

So;

Why has the Christian Church filled our minds of such fearful satanic dogma and the same said Church has attached to the incident with Eve and the serpent?

Nowhere in the Genesis account is there any mention, direct or indirect of Satan's involvement but it hasn't stopped -indeed it has become common practice - for the Church to portray the Eden serpent as a representative of Satan or Satan himself as in Revelation 12:9.

From my own understanding, in the Hebrew bible as in the conventional or mainstream Judaism to this day Satan never appears as Western Christendom has come to know him. The Christian perception of Satan is that of an evil imperialist whose hoards of demons wages war on god and humankind, but this Satan character was an invention of the post -Jesus era that has absolutely no more historic value than anything written by Bram Stoker and his Gothic fictional character, count Dracula.

Though rarely mentioned in the Old Testament 'satans' are portrayed as obedient underling servants or sons of gods (the bene ha - elohim) who's duty it is to perform specific tasks or strategic obstruction. Whenever a bene ha - elohim satan appears in the Old Testament he is seen as a fully signed up member of the heavenly court- one that carries out god's more aggressive dictates and is also know as an obstructer and accuser.

So in this regard, why is it that the Christian Church felt it necessary to wrap around an emissary of god a myth that is only worthy of a gothic novel that has no historicity to it whatsoever?

Best.Korea

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Best.Korea

10.05.2023 12:04PM

Atheism has satan too. I think I have seen some people in satan outfits at gay parades.

FLRW

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FLRW

10.05.2023 02:56PM

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@Stephen

Why has the Christian Church filled our minds of such fearful satanic dogma

To make the TV show Lucifer popular? You all know that I'm Lucifer Morningstar don't you?

IlDiavolo

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IlDiavolo

10.05.2023 08:09PM

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@Stephen

Though rarely mentioned in the Old Testament 'satans' are portrayed as obedient underling servants or sons of gods (the bene ha - elohim) who's duty it is to perform specific tasks or strategic obstruction. Whenever a bene ha - elohim satan appears in the Old Testament he is seen as a fully signed up member of the heavenly court- one that carries out god's more aggressive dictates and is also know as an obstructer and accuser.
So in this regard, why is it that the Christian Church felt it necessary to wrap around an emissary of god a myth that is only worthy of a gothic novel that has no historicity to it whatsoever?

I'm not an expert on chirsianity but as far as I remember the devils are heavenly messengers of God's bad news which can explain the bad reputation of these entities in later interpretations.

As of the Eden serpent, it's the same allegory of the serpent that showed up in front of Jesus, aka the Christ. Many phylosophers and theologists agree that this serpent represents the ego or the excesive self-esteem, it's part of our nature. I think I talked about it in past topics.

Last but not least, Satan is also a server of the christian God as well as the devils I mentioned before. So, christians blame Satan for all their misfortunes when in reality they should blame Jehova who is their God that is in charge of all the entities that intervene in the human destiny.

zedvictor4

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zedvictor4

10.06.2023 04:15AM

Write stories.

Invent characters.

And voila.

It's the same old good bad good format.

Tradesecret

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Tradesecret

10.06.2023 06:26AM

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@Stephen

I'm not responding to Stephen. I concede it looks like it.

But Read the book by C S Lewis. screw tape letters. judithwolfe.wp.st-andrews.ac.uk/files/2017/08/Screwtape.pdf

After that, I don't care.

Topic's author

Stephen

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Stephen

10.06.2023 06:39AM

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@zedvictor4

It's the same old good bad good format.

Not too far off the mark there Vic, lad.

This sinister Satanic character aka Lucifer surfaced mainly through the creation of Christian dualism. i.e. the idea of two opposing gods. Some traditions have that Satan was either brother or the son of the Christian god Jehovah or was even the competitive and aggressive aspect of Jehovah himself!

So in essence created the Jehovah - Satan conflict that appears to be representative of the ancient pre- Christian tradition of the symbolic battle between light and darkness. It seems that the Christian church were desperate for an anti-god/Christ figure -indeed, such a figure was necessary -to create for god a perceived enemy. And this perceived enemy was the Christian invented Satan. Satan that would claim the souls of the wicked that didn't offer absolute loyalty and obedience to the Church.

I am sure that you can guess that for this diabolical scheme of fear and anxiety to succeed, the Christian Satan had to have existed from the beginning of time and not to have appeared to have been plucked out of thin air by the Bishops, and what better place was there than to place him in the earliest story of mankind than that of the Adam and his wife Eve.

Of course, the problem was that Genesis made no mention whatsoever of Satan being present.

The serpent story is another matter entirely.

Topic's author

Stephen

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Stephen

10.06.2023 08:30AM

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@IlDiavolo

I'm not an expert on chirsianity but as far as I remember the devils are heavenly messengers of God's bad news which can explain the bad reputation of these entities in later interpretations.

To my knowledge 'The devil' is a Christian invention of the early Christian Bishops. Born out of an Old Testament passage from Isaiah and has nothing at all to do with the Eden serpent Lord or A Satan which are the sons of gods (the bene ha - elohim).

As of the Eden serpent, it's the same allegory of the serpent that showed up in front of Jesus, aka the Christ.

I am going to assume you are referring to the so called "temptation" in the desert.

This is interesting for reasons that I set out in my OP. #1 saying:

Stephen wrote:

Though rarely mentioned in the Old Testament 'satans' are portrayed as obedient underling servants or sons of gods (the bene ha - elohim) who's duty it is to perform specific tasks or strategic obstruction. Whenever a bene ha - elohim satan appears in the Old Testament he is seen as a fully signed up member of the heavenly court- one that carries out god's more aggressive dictates and is also know as an obstructer and accuser.

So if this event ever did take place, the test would have been performed by A Satan which would make more sense in the Hebrew sense of the word than the demonic entity created by the early Christian Bishops called 'the devil' .

Last but not least, Satan is also a server of the christian God as well as the devils I mentioned before. So, christians blame Satan for all their misfortunes when in reality they should blame Jehova who is their God that is in charge of all the entities that intervene in the human destiny.

Excellent observation!

And you are not far of the mark with that comment and the bible itself can back you up. Because in terms of the Hebrew/Israelite biblical understanding they make no bones about evil having any other source but god himself and to think otherwise was totally out of the question. God himself was reckoned to be the instigator of all things. The books of Isaiah and I think Amos both make clear references to exactly what you have claimed.

Although, and not to be unexpected, the early Bishops had another ideas as I have already covered above to zedvictor4 #7. They maintained that god had to have a evil adversary from whom the people can be saved - enter stage left- ' the devil'.

Sidewalker

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Sidewalker

10.09.2023 06:15PM

So;
Why has the Christian Church filled our minds of such fearful satanic dogma and the same said Church has attached to the incident with Eve and the serpent?

Thequestion is why has the Christian Church filled YOUR mind with such fearful satanic dogma. Very few report the Christian experience as “fearfulSatanic dogma”, clearly the answer to your questions can only be found viaintrospection.

Nowhere in the Genesis account is there any mention, direct or indirect of Satan's involvement but it hasn't stopped -indeed it has become common practice - for the Church to portray the Eden serpent as a representative of Satan or Satan himself as in Revelation 12:9.

Yousay ”the Church” as if Christianity is a single monolithic entity with twobillion people that all think alike. It mostcertainly is not, and your portrayal here is not the least bit representativeof the majority of Christians by any stretch of the imagination. This drama is a psychological drama playingout internally and being projected onto others.

From my own understanding, in the Hebrew bible as in the conventional or mainstream Judaism to this day Satan never appears as Western Christendom has come to know him. The Christian perception of Satan is that of an evil imperialist whose hoards of demons wages war on god and humankind, but this Satan character was an invention of the post -Jesus era that has absolutely no more historic value than anything written by Bram Stoker and his Gothic fictional character, count Dracula.

Though rarely mentioned in the Old Testament 'satans' are portrayed as obedient underling servants or sons of gods (the bene ha - elohim) who's duty it is to perform specific tasks or strategic obstruction. Whenever a bene ha - elohim satan appears in the Old Testament he is seen as a fully signed up member of the heavenly court- one that carries out god's more aggressive dictates and is also know as an obstructer and accuser.

Judaismand Christianity are indeed two different religions, with differing interpretationsof the same ancient Scriptures.

So in this regard, why is it that the Christian Church felt it necessary to wrap around an emissary of god a myth that is only worthy of a gothic novel that has no historicity to it whatsoever?

It is said that all wars are internal wars, perhaps the inner turmoil you are projecting outwardly is a deliberate and intentional effort to be disconnected from a poor self-image, negative feelings, guilt, or mental illness. Demonic religious ideation and Satanic delusions could be outward manifestations of dark internal realities of a mind in turmoil as it struggles to preserve some semblance of self-esteem, sense of self-worth and identity by denying the existence of the traumatic internal issues.

Topic's author

#10

Stephen

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Stephen

10.09.2023 10:38PM

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@Sidewalker

So;
Why has the Christian Church filled our minds of such fearful satanic dogma and the same said Church has attached to the incident with Eve and the serpent?
Thequestion is why has the Christian Church filled YOUR mind with such fearful satanic dogma.

It think you need to look up the word - dogma.

Very few report the Christian experience as “fearfulSatanic dogma”, clearly the answer to your questions can only be found viaintrospection.

People- Christians in particular have had the notion of the devil implanted in their minds for millennia. Whether one believes in the devil or not. But the Christian church and its adherents do. Its called Christian dogma because the devil is a creation of the Christian Church. It comes from nowhere else.

Nowhere in the Genesis account is there any mention, direct or indirect of Satan's involvement but it hasn't stopped -indeed it has become common practice - for the Church to portray the Eden serpent as a representative of Satan or Satan himself as in Revelation 12:9.
Yousay ”the Church” as if Christianity is a single monolithic entity with twobillion people that all think alike.

Ok. Which branch of the Christian church do not believe in the devil? And are you saying adherents to Christianity do not believe in the devil?

This drama is a psychological drama playingout internally and being projected onto others.

Which was what the Christian invention of the devil was intended to do. Pastors and Priest project the unfounded idea of the evil onto their congregations .

From my own understanding, in the Hebrew bible as in the conventional or mainstream Judaism to this day Satan never appears as Western Christendom has come to know him. The Christian perception of Satan is that of an evil imperialist whose hoards of demons wages war on god and humankind, but this Satan character was an invention of the post -Jesus era that has absolutely no more historic value than anything written by Bram Stoker and his Gothic fictional character, count Dracula.

Though rarely mentioned in the Old Testament 'satans' are portrayed as obedient underling servants or sons of gods (the bene ha - elohim) who's duty it is to perform specific tasks or strategic obstruction. Whenever a bene ha - elohim satan appears in the Old Testament he is seen as a fully signed up member of the heavenly court- one that carries out god's more aggressive dictates and is also know as an obstructer and accuser.
Judaismand Christianity are indeed two different religions, with differing interpretationsof the same ancient Scriptures.

And that is exactly my point. I refer you to replies I have gave above to other members on this thread.

So in this regard, why is it that the Christian Church felt it necessary to wrap around an emissary of god a myth that is only worthy of a gothic novel that has no historicity to it whatsoever?
It is said that all wars are internal wars, perhaps the inner turmoil you are projecting outwardly is a deliberate and intentional effort to be disconnected from a poor self-image, negative feelings, guilt, or mental illness.

I agree in part. Anyone of the modern age taken in by this particular Christian invention of the devil, do, IMO, suffer from some sort of mental illness. Though, I am glad that you said that and not me.

Demonic religious ideation and Satanic delusions could be outward manifestations of dark internal realities of a mind in turmoil as it struggles to preserve some semblance of self-esteem, sense of self-worth and identity by denying the existence of the traumatic internal issues.

There might be something in that. I should imagine anyone taken in by such an invention as the devil dogma that has absolutely no grounds may well be suffering from-as you put it - mental turmoil or traumatic internal issues, and just the kind of weak minded sort that the Christian church and other religions usually prey on.

#11

Sidewalker

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Sidewalker

10.11.2023 03:20PM

There might be something in that. I should imagine anyone taken in by such an invention as the devil dogma that has absolutely no grounds may well be suffering from-as you put it - mental turmoil or traumatic internal issues, and just the kind of weak minded sort that the Christian church and other religions usually prey on.

Good for you, recognizing the problem is the first step in overcoming it. How is that "obsessively attacking Christianity" thing working out for you? Doesn't seem to be working, it hasn't done a thing to lessen the your anger, perhaps you should simply confront the Christian you are so upset with, if you can overcome your fear of speaking directly to them, maybe putting it all on the table will help you handle your demons. It's very clear trolling the internet isn't helping, it's time to stop acting out and face up to the real world.

Topic's author

#12

Stephen

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Stephen

10.11.2023 05:29PM

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@Sidewalker

Sidewalker wrote: Demonic religious ideation and Satanic delusions could be outward manifestations of dark internal realities of a mind in turmoil as it struggles to preserve some semblance of self-esteem, sense of self-worth and identity by denying the existence of the traumatic internal issues.
There might be something in that. I should imagine anyone taken in by such an invention as the devil dogma that has absolutely no grounds may well be suffering from-as you put it - mental turmoil or traumatic internal issues, and just the kind of weak minded sort that the Christian church and other religions usually prey on.
Sidewalker wrote: Good for you, recognizing the problem is the first step in overcoming it.

Well it would be a good start for Christians that still to this day are taken in by and believe such nonsense as the existence of "demons" and hell fire" and "a devil" that is after their soul and wanting to drag them all the way to hell. Which is also to this day, preached from the pulpit by the Pastors and the Priests.

How is that "obsessively attacking Christianity" thing working out for you?

Questioning and scrutinizing the ambiguous half stories that make up the gospels is not attacking Christians. Its a study and research of the scriptures. But I can understand someone who cannot tell the difference thinking just that.

Doesn't seem to be working, it hasn't done a thing to lessen the your anger,

I have no anger. I quite enjoy my favourite subject of bible study and theology research. It really is my favourite subject of all subjects. Its a passion for me and not an "obsession".

perhaps you should simply confront the Christian you are so upset with,

I'm not upset with Christians. Unless they (or anyone else) happen to start calling me names and making false accusation unjustifiably, simply for thinking different to them or because I happen to know and understand the scriptures better than most I have met.

But I do get mystified at times that they cannot seem to understand the difference between critical thinking and blind faith without question. That too can be put down to the Pastors and Priests and their threats of "the devil" and hell fire over the last two millennia.

if you can overcome your fear of speaking directly to them, maybe putting it all on the table will help you handle your demons.

You have totally misunderstood the thread.

I have no "demons". I don't believe in "the devil" or hell either. These are things that are a complete invention of the early Church Bishops, as I explain in some depth above HERE> #1 HERE> #7 and HERE>#8 . But let me expand on this.

In the scriptures someone being possessed by "he devil "and or having a "demon" is applied to many things and situations. Simply being sick or upsetting the status quo , or being antisocial then one is said to have a "demon". John the Baptist was said to have a demon yet Jesus said he was the "greatest prophet that ever lived". Jesus himself was said by members of his own family to also be "possessed" yet he was the "son of god" wasn't he?

It's very clear trolling the internet isn't helping, it's time to stop acting out and face up to the real world.

Well if you happen to be speaking of Christians that have been taken for a complete and utter ride over the past two millennia by having their minds filled with dread and fear, and have been taught to believe the Christian invention of "the devil" and his hoards of demon that will take their soul and drag them to hell when they die by Pastors, Chaplains and Priests, then I can only hope many of my threads will help them "face up to the real world".

Maybe they should start with this thread.

You didn't answer this:

Sidewalker wrote: yousay ”the Church” as if Christianity is a single monolithic entity with twobillion people that all think alike. #9

OK. Which branch of the Christian church do not believe in the devil? And are you saying adherents to Christianity do not believe in the devil?

Topic's author

#13

Stephen

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Stephen

10.14.2023 10:38AM

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@IlDiavolo

It is interesting that when we read of the post Jesus writing about Satan - "the serpent of old"- and the Christian invented "Satan/devil" the Christian Church will immediately point to John's so called "vision" in Revelation as evidence for all three entities being one and the same entity which they are not for reasons set out above..

The chapter that the Church home in on for their evidence comes from of Revelation 20: 1-3. 8

Revelation 20:1-3 King James Version

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Well as far as John seeing into the future, he obviously didn't have to look that far, because it is more than obvious where he gained his super seer powers from. Is all one has to do is pick up a copy of the Book of Enoch which John had obviously had read for himself.

In the book of Enoch chapter 54 we can read of an angel called Azazel:

And I looked and turned to another part of the earth, and saw there a deep valley with burning 2 fire. And they brought the kings and the mighty, and began to cast them into this deep valley. 3 And there mine eyes saw how they made these their instruments, iron chains of immeasurable weight. And I asked the angel of peace who went with me, saying: ' For whom are these chains being prepared ? ' And he said unto me: ' These are being prepared for the hosts of Azazel, so that they may take them and cast them into the abyss of complete condemnation, and they shall cover their jaws with rough stones as the Lord of Spirits commanded. 6 And Michael, and Gabriel, and Raphael, and Phanuel shall take hold of them on that great day, and cast them on that day into the burning furnace, that the Lord of Spirits may take vengeance on them for their unrighteousness in becoming subject to Satan and leading astray those who dwell on the earth.' 7 And in those days shall punishment come from the Lord of Spirits, and he will open all the chambers of waters which are above the heavens, and of the fountains which are beneath the earth. 8 And all the waters shall be joined with the waters: that which is above the heavens is the masculine, and the water which is beneath the earth is the feminine. And they shall destroy all who dwell on the earth and those who dwell under the ends of the heaven. And when they have recognized their unrighteousness which they have wrought on the earth, then by these shall they perish.

Topic's author

#14

Stephen

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Stephen

10.17.2023 12:09PM

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@IlDiavolo

@FLRW

@Best.Korea

One has to ask; if A Satan of the Old Testament and the Christian created "devil" are one and the same entity as the Christian Church insists, then what ever gave the devil the idea that he could test god/son of god?

But we can read this is was supposed to have happened when we turn to Matthew 4:1 where we are informed:

Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

By further reading of this unwitnessed story it shouldn't go un-noticed story that the New Testament compilers use both titles Satan - devil for the same entity.

4 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”

5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

“‘He will command his angels concerning you,

and they will lift you up in their hands,

so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’”

7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’”

8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’”

11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

Well apart from the fact that there were only two present one has to wonder how and why this story was put together in the first instance. And why did the son of god need testing or tempting at all!? And as I have already mentioned above, what gave the devil the idea that he could test god/son of god in the first place?

This story if it is at all to be believed can only make sense if we read with the full knowledge of what A Satans' /son of god (the bene ha - elohim) duty and function was as I have set out above #1 last paragraph.

It also has to be considered too something that the early Church Bishops had seriously overlooked concerning their created satan-devil- serpent. But that is for another day, unless someone decides to point it out before I do so.