Miracle For Me But Not For Thee.

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10.16.2023 10:04AM

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10.16.2023 10:04AM

The devil by many accounts is believed by Christians to be a master of "trickery" and one would suppose it natural enough for the Church to have us all believe that magic is the work of the devil.

Yet apart from the well know so called miracles familiar to the Jesus of the gospels; exorcism, laying on of hand and showing of faith, Marks gospel states that Jesus ordained his own disciples with the same power to be able to do likewise such as heal the sick 'cast out devils, demons and unclean spirits', as he himself had done.

But from the Christian perspective they are presented to us as miracles, but when performed by those of another faith or religion or no religion at all they are considered by the Church to be unacceptable magic or witchcraft or sorcery. Although, the table was once seemed to have been turned on Jesus when the temple authorities accused him of using or appropriating the use of a devilish spirit to heal the sick.

The difference in attitude obviously lies in the recognized legitimacy of the act in accordance with different standpoint and religious belief. If a Christian Pastor or Priest performs a healing, it is without question said to have been done via the help of god. But if a heretic achieves the same result, it is said to be magic and deemed to be the work of the devil with the church proclaiming "by the glory of god" while the heretic stands accused of it being the work of the devil and an abomination.

So it is then that those that practice "magic" without sanction from the Church were identified as sorcerers that attracted and used evil spirits with the use of rituals and incantations that they were to become servants of devils, demons and evils spirts. While the Church have also been for millennia using exorcism, Mass readings, sprinkling of "holy water" beads, knotted rope and other sorts of sacraments and rituals including payers..

One good example and starting point in investigating these double standards can be found reasonably early in the Bible.

Its the story of Aaron and his magic rod and those staffs of the priests of Pharaoh that the Bible refer to as sorcerers, and magicians. the story can be found in Exodus.

#2

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10.16.2023 05:15PM

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@Stephen

@Barney

@Sidewalker

@Critical-Tim

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Stephen,

Relative to your initial post, the pseudo-christian never reports the miracles that didn't 't work, but only the ones that "allegedly" did. Take science of the medical field in the 21st century out of the picture when having a serious disease, and for the most part, there would be less assumed miracles by the pseudo-christian faction.

Like you proffered, Jesus stated that myself and possibly pseudo-christians as well, could perform miracles like He did: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. (John 14:12)

As me being the only TRUE Christian upon this Religion Forum, because I follow ALL OF JESUS' INSPIRED WORDS TO THE LITERAL LETTER within the scriptures, I have yet to move a mountain like Jesus said I could do in truly believing in Him: “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.” (Matthew 17:20)

Barring the complex mustard seed analogy, I still can't move Mount Everest even 100 feet from side to side! Albeit, Miss Tradesecret, Sidewalker and Critical-Tim can't move a mountain even a couple of inches! LOL!

At one time, I wrote to the very well known preacher Pat Robertson and told him to move just a small hill in the town he was living in of Virginia Beach, Virginia, instead of a mountain, to prove his faith of truly believing in Jesus, but I never heard back from him and no hill being moved by him was ever reported upon the news in his home town. :(

Then again I tried to throw a mountain into the Pacific Ocean that it skirted, but to no avail again, so what gives?: “Truly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what has been done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ it will happen.” (Matthew 21:21)

Since Barney is a Catholic, do you think this division of Christianity can could perform said miracles that I couldn't?

Did Jesus as God LIE AGAIN in His scriptures when He said His followers that truly believed in Him could do the miracles like He did, and even greater, as stated within this post of mine?

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#3

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10.16.2023 05:33PM

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@Stephen

Christians can show evidence of things that look supernatural and r inexplicable. Non Christians and especially atheists can't show that, or at least never do. The Bible says Satan can work false signs and wonders and might pretend to be good, but I don't know if that includes the supernatural... we certainly don't ever see demonic things that look supernatural

#4

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10.16.2023 05:47PM

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10.16.2023 05:47PM

The miracles of pope John Paul is

https://www.magiscenter.com/blog/the-miracle-that-made-pope-john-paul-ii-a-canonized-saint

#5

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10.16.2023 06:13PM

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@n8nrgim

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n8nrgim, the RUN AWAY from biblical axioms that he cannot address,

Since you RUN AWAY from my posts because you cannot address them biblically, let's deduce the miracle proposition to its irreducible primary, okay?

Bottom line, can you move mountains from side to side, or throw them into the ocean as Jesus as God says you can do IF YOU TRULY BELIEVE IN HIM?!

“Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.” (Matthew 17:20)

"Truly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what has been done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ it will happen.” (Matthew 21:21)

The membership is watching you explain the above if you can, or cannot perform said miracles!

BEGIN:

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#6

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10.16.2023 06:23PM

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@n8nrgim

Christians can show evidence of things that look supernatural and r inexplicable

This is a contradiction. To claim something is the result of the supernatural you are offering an explanation. To then claim it is inexplicable you are by definition claiming it has no explanation.

Like I pointed out to you in the last thread, you have to have a confirmed supernatural occurrence to compare to in order to claim something "looks" supernatural. "X looks just like Y" does not work without a Y.

#7

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10.16.2023 06:43PM

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@Double_R

You r playing word games. Would it be fair for you to say the healings r inexplicable but that it looks like the body healed itself? According to you thats a contradiction. Apparently all we can do is say things r inexplicable and offer no theories.

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zedvictor4

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zedvictor4

10.16.2023 06:44PM

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@Double_R

Anything that occurs within a Universe at any given moment, occurs naturally.

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#9

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10.16.2023 06:56PM

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@n8nrgim

Christians can show evidence of things that look supernatural and r inexplicable.

And I have said to you before, Some say "supernatural" while others will simply say unexplainable.#42

But the point here is the double standards of the Church. Have you read my example from the bible? Do you agree that Pharaohs' priests were magicians and sorcerers ?

#10

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10.16.2023 07:03PM

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@Stephen

I missed that part. It's possible the Bible made a mistake, it's possible evil sources can do the supernatural too, but we have no examples in modern life.

#11

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10.16.2023 07:06PM

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10.16.2023 07:06PM

We don't have examples of things that r inexplicable being explained. That would be a contradiction. We only have examples of things that look inexplicable at first later being explained. If something truly looks inexplicable, it's fair to offer theories

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#12

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10.16.2023 07:12PM

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@n8nrgim

But the point here is the double standards of the Church. Have you read my example from the bible? Do you agree that Pharaohs' priests were magicians and sorcerers ?

I missed that part. It's possible the Bible made a mistake,

Mistaken about what, exactly?

it's possible evil sources can do the supernatural too,

So are you saying then that the priests of Pharaoh were just plain evil? Or somehow possessed ?

#13

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10.16.2023 07:30PM

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10.16.2023 07:30PM

Sorcerers and magicians in bible days might have just been slight of hand and the Bible is being misleading to call magic

#14

ponikshiy

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10.16.2023 07:38PM

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@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas

! Albeit, Miss Tradesecret, Sidewalker and Critical-Tim can't move a mountain even a couple of inches! LOL!

Sad, they need Jesus

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10.16.2023 07:48PM

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@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas

Relative to your initial post, the pseudo-christian never reports the miracles that didn't 't work, but only the ones that "allegedly" did.

Indeed the church teaches the ritual of prayer - "ask and you will be given to", etc.

From an old thread of mine https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5587-the-bibles-most-cruel-lie

December 14 2019.

Church attempts resurrection of a dead two year old child, through Prayer

“We have a precedent” said Pastor Bill, “Jesus raised the dead”.

He said “there was no time limit on how much longer the prayers and singing would continue, but added that the child remained at the county coroner's office”.

Interesting that Jesus also commanded any one that followed him to:

“Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give”. Matthew 10:7-8 .

They appear to have done everything by the book too:

“'Since that night, and at the continued request of the Heiligenthal family, Bethel Church has hosted prayer and worship gatherings which consist of singing and prayer,' the church said in a statement”.

Interesting it is that the bible informs its adherents to continue praying! And to “never give up”. Luke 18.

The baby’s funeral was eventually held December22.

What happened here ? “Ye of little faith”or the wrong faith?

It appears that the only thing “raised” during this whole sad sorry saga was $62,000 (“unforeseen expenses” don’t you know) via a GoFundMe page. I can hear Pastor Bill sermonising Acts 2:45 as I write.

It isn't hard at all to find hundreds of cases where every single devout religious grieving parent was denied what they asked for in their payers.

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#16

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10.16.2023 08:17PM

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@n8nrgim

But the point here is the double standards of the Church. Have you read my example from the bible? Do you agree that Pharaohs' priests were magicians and sorcerers ?

I missed that part. It's possible the Bible made a mistake,

Mistaken about what, exactly?

it's possible evil sources can do the supernatural too,

So are you saying then that the priests of Pharaoh were just plain evil? Or somehow possessed ?

Sorcerers and magicians in bible days might have just been slight of hand and....

I think the bible and god takes these things a little more serious than conjuring tricks and slight of hand. Indeed such people that practiced "slight of hand" as you put it, were put to death and then sent to the everlasting fires of hell.

Talking of which, didn't Moses himself use "slight of hand" when trying to convince the Hebrews that he was sent from god? But the church calls this a miracle? I could have performed exactly the same slight of hand and would have been accused of devil worship and demon worship and burned at the stake, why do you think that is?

the Bible is being misleading to call magic

Well the bible calls it a miracle from god when Aaron performed it, but when the priests of Pharaoh did the same it was called sorcery. This is the double standards I am hoping you can explain. Have you even read the biblical story which I have highlighted ?

#17

Best.Korea

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Best.Korea

10.16.2023 08:49PM

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@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas

Bible slap their silly

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10.16.2023 09:32PM

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@n8nrgim

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n8nrgim, the RUN AWAY pseudo-christian from biblical axioms that he cannot address,

YOUR UNGODLY QUOTE OF STATING THAT JESUS' BIBLE MADE A MISTAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!: "I missed that part. It's possible the Bible made a mistake, "

Listen, as shown throughout my posts to you where you have to RUN AWAY from them and hide just like Miss Tradesecret has to do all the time, now you have the audacity to say the JUDEO-Christian Bible has mistakes in it? BLASPHEME!

You have now called Jesus a "LIAR" because you say He made a mistake in His inspired words that He wrote to begin with as the passage below so states:

“And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God which you heard from us you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God.” (1 Thessalonians 2:13)

From you having to run away from my posts all the time that easily show you that you are already going to Hell upon your demise, where when you make biblically STUPID STATEMENTS like you did in your quote above, now you will be in the hottest place in Hell for sure! Wow, calling Jesus a LIAR is the last straw for you!

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NEXT BIBLE STUPID MEMBER LIKE "N8NRGIM" THAT WANTS TO CALL JESUS A LIAR IN ASSURING THEIR HELL BOUND DEMISE UPON THEIR DEATH, WILL BE ...?

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#19

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10.16.2023 10:50PM

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@n8nrgim

You r playing word games.

It's not word games, it's English. The problem with many of these arguments is not that they're worded wrong, it's that they're worded in such a way that makes them sound good because the words used to make them are being improperly used. When striped of their incorrect usage, it becomes clear what was wrong with the logic behind them.

Unless of course it truly is a matter of one misspeaking, in which case correcting the verbage only helps to clarify so we can focus on the actual ideas.

Would it be fair for you to say the healings r inexplicable but that it looks like the body healed itself?

If I cut myself, over time the wound will heal. Here's a question for you... How do we know that this is a natural occurrence whereas, say, myself growing back an amputated arm isn't?

Answer: Because we have observed how the body heals, and through observation we know that cuts heal while lost limbs do not.

So if someone did grow back a lost limb does this logically lead us to the conclusion that we are witnessing something supernatural? No, it means we are observing a body healing itself in ways we previously hadn't observed. Logically, we must now add this to our list of observations and work to explain what caused this result that didn't cause the same result in other cases.

According to you thats a contradiction.

The contradiction isn't concluding the body healed itself, the contradiction is claiming that previous observations count towards our understanding of the natural while current observations do not. The other contradiction is claiming that we can explain something (by asserting the supernatural) while also saying we can't explain it (by calling it inexplicable).

Apparently all we can do is say things r inexplicable and offer no theories.

No, we can investigate. What we can't do is appeal to that which lies outside of the boundaries of that which we have access to. This is why science is based on methodological naturalism. The idea isn't that there is no such thing as the supernatural, it's that if there is we have no access to it so we're stuck limiting our investigations of reality to the physical.

#20

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10.17.2023 03:47AM

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10.17.2023 03:47AM

So theres like a fine arse line before some thing enters under the "miricals" category.

And of course this fine arse line can never be crossed, asssssss there ain't such a thing that is a " mirical " .

No but Are Are, ( double R )

I like when you taught me .

The appearance of X isn't always X .

I think you used the ( appearance of magic isn't magic ) analogy saying thing.

I fucken wrote it straight on me wall.

Thats was over 4 years now.

Thanks Are Are.

Miricals being ummmm , "witnessed" around the times of the days of the jesus.

Pffffff.

You could imagine right.

From.

A door moving.

A red head kid.

And just other assorted nonsense.

Picture it.

Playing tricks on your mates back in the jesus days would of been a sinch.

With everyone ( SEEMINGLY ) to be scared of ghost and shit.

With fucking witches .

And curses and shit.

White rabbits. Fingers crossed. Sacrafice.

Easy fucking as.

I could of easily prove my wifes a witch back then.

Easy.

With a couple bits of string and a paper clip.

But where was i .

Miricals.

A mirical is somthing like ,

now picture this.

A EMPTY BUCKET.

With the wave of a hand and a Poof, i mean

powwwwwww.

The bucket is now full of fish.

Insta bucket o fish.

Aka mirical.

My next post will be a serious post about, how some churches offer exorcism.

Or whatever they call it.

You can really see why everything boils down to SEX.

All this nonsense is to get and or have sex.

Like Dirty sex.

I call it. Stray dog sex.

Mmmm church.

'Spit comes out me mouth'

Ill be on topic next post henny.

Im getting fucking angry.

Fucken secret churches.

Pass.

Good game

Good game.

#21

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10.17.2023 04:00AM

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10.17.2023 04:00AM

☆☆☆ But Amputees didn't exist back then ☆☆☆

Ethang5.

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#22

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10.17.2023 12:57PM

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@Deb-8-a-bull

Deb.

Lets look at just one of only three "raisings of the dead" performed by Jesus: The daughter of Jairus.

Like many of these so called miraculous raisings of "dead" bodies, there is a problem with this story.

When we take closer look at the “dead daughter” story we can see that either Jesus lied or he didn’t perform a miracle.

18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, "My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live". <<< [Here then the daughter is dead and expired, unless this "certain ruler" didn't know what a corpse looked like and with it being his own daughter!]

19 And Jesus arose, and followed him, and so did his disciples. [And by all accounts performing a quick miracle on the way!]

20 And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment:

21 For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole.

22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

23 And when Jesus came into the ruler's house, and saw the minstrels and the people making a noise,

24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.

25 But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose.

26 And the fame hereof went abroad into all that land. Matthew 9:18-26 King James Version

So if the “certain” ruler’s daughter is dead - her father would know the difference between dead and alive - , then either Jesus lied when he said she was only sleeping or Jesus was telling the truth and there was no miracle performed at all.

Which is it deb?

And notice Deb, there isn't a single mention of prayer in this story of miracles. Not even a - get up dead not dead daughter and be alive again - , no deb, not a single words came from the mouth of Jesus. There's not even a "thank you Lord" come to that!

#23

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10.17.2023 02:57PM

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Thank fuck we all here know that the KJV bible is the official, specific, true, bible.

Because there is like a good dozen other " versions "

With knowing this , it saves like 3 hours at the start of every talk, geeting you guys to like , "link the bible up with the god "

Butttttt.

We know god did the kjv bible . ( ZIP IT. )

NOPE.

SHH.

Moving on.

It is odd that they don't speak of prayer in this Stroy of miricals.

As prayer and miricals work pretty much EXACTLY THE SAME WAY.

Ie. ( they don't )

I reckon i could do . A FAKE PRAYER. And it would look like i was really praying.

FAKE.

I say miricals are fake.

Tommy.

Thats

( To me. )

I would however fall for the good old .

MIRICAL #256. Turning water into wine.

If i seen some blain like dude do that,

I'd say MIRICALS EXIST.

ACTUALLY.

Hold the fuck on.

it is/ would be documented that someones / many, have "lost" their eyesight.

And have " regained " it back some fucking how right ?

Sooo.

If someone was to do like a little chant or something then place there hand on a blind man andddddddd, that blind man ssen again that same day.

Right.

Stay with me.

Buttt, THAT COULD BE CLASSIFIED AS A .

LEGIT OBSERVED MIRICAL.

Oh the odds of it.

To far?

Yeah but .

Ok ill stop now.

#24

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10.17.2023 03:03PM

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10.17.2023 03:03PM

What if.

The first years of human sacrificing for rain and stuff seen / uncannily lined up with , ( bumper crops )

Fuckin sick.

Ha.

#25

IlDiavolo

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IlDiavolo

10.17.2023 07:39PM

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10.17.2023 07:39PM

Not just miracles. These people pretend to have the monopoly on God, the truth, the salvation, the prophesies, the interpretation of the bible, and so on. Everything outside of them is fake, a product of devil's trickery.

Of course, we all know that what they really want is to have a monopoly on the tithe. Hahahahahaha.

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#26

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