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@Shila
Yeah, so it's Paul's word, against all the previous disciples. Paul's word about the divinity of Christ, Paul's word and interpretation about the abandonment of the covenant between God and the Israelites. Paul who turned what was a sect of Judaism into something devoid of Jewishness, except the disciples who continued their practice of Judaism until their dying day.
The evidence of all this comes from one man who never met Christ in the flesh, yet knew him well enough to contradict earlier teachings, and the original disciples.
Doesn't hold much weight.
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@Shila
As you certainly know, the Holy Trinity as a theory came much later, indeed centuries after Jesus was said to have lived. Additionally, when we consider, Paul, and Christianity being the belief that Jesus is God, we can see that the latter became doctrine, also after Jesus' death, much later, and was likely a principle elevated by Paul.
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@Shila
Paul never clearly identifies Jesus as God in the same sense as YHWH. He distinguishes “God the Father” from “the Lord Jesus” (1 Cor. 8:6), and verses like Romans 9:5 and Colossians 1:15 use exalted language, but they reflect divine agency — not co-identity with God.
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@Shila
While it’s true that Paul elevated Jesus far beyond a typical messianic role, the claim that Paul outright considered Jesus to be God in the same sense as YHWH is an overstatement — and reflects later Christian theology projected backward. Paul never directly calls Jesus "God" in the way later creeds do. In fact, Paul repeatedly distinguishes between God the Father and Jesus the Lord, showing a hierarchy:
- 1 Corinthians 8:6:
“Yet for us there is one God, the Father… and one Lord, Jesus Christ…”— Here, God is the Father, and Jesus is the Lord (not the same being).
- Romans 1:4:
“[Jesus] was declared to be the Son of God with power according to the spirit of holiness by resurrection…”— Paul does not say Jesus was God incarnate; rather, he was appointed Son of God through resurrection.
- 2 Corinthians 5:19:
“God was reconciling the world through Christ.”— Not as Christ — through him — implying a mediator, not co-identity.
Even when Paul calls Jesus "Lord" (kyrios), that term had a range of meanings, from "master" to a divine agent — not necessarily a one-to-one identification with YHWH. Yes, some early Christians may have begun to interpret "Lord" in more exalted ways, but this is part of the gradual evolution of high Christology — not settled doctrine in Paul’s time.
So while Paul gave Jesus a cosmic role and viewed him as essential to God’s redemptive plan, the idea that Paul taught Jesus = YHWH in the later Trinitarian sense is anachronistic. That doctrine fully developed much later, particularly in the 4th century at Nicaea and Constantinople.
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@Shila
While Mark 16:15 does say, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation," this passage must be read in context.
First, most scholars agree that Mark 16:9–20 — including that verse — was a later addition, not part of the earliest manuscripts of Mark.
Second, even taking it at face value, "gospel" (euangelion) at that point referred to the announcement of the Kingdom of God, not yet to a Law-free, Gentile-inclusive religion.
Jesus' earthly ministry consistently prioritized the House of Israel (Matthew 15:24) and affirmed Torah observance (Matthew 5:17-19).
The universal, Law-free Christianity we know today only emerged after Paul systematically abolished Jewish covenant requirements for Gentiles (Galatians 5, Romans 14).
Thus, even if Jesus sent his disciples to the nations, it was still a Jewish message, not a charter to discard the Law and found a new, separate religion — that innovation came later, primarily through Paul's teachings.
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@Shila
While it's true that Christianity would not exist without Jesus as the central figure, it is historically inaccurate to claim that Christianity is simply the direct continuation of Jesus' ministry. Jesus lived, taught, and died as a Torah-observant Jew, preaching exclusively to the lost sheep of Israel, not to Gentiles, and upholding the Law without abolishing it. His early followers, including Peter and James, continued to observe Jewish law even after believing in his resurrection. The actual transformation of Jesus’ Jewish movement into a new, Law-free, Gentile-inclusive faith was the work of Paul. Paul abolished circumcision, kosher laws, Sabbath observance, and other covenantal requirements — changes Jesus himself never taught — and reinterpreted Jesus’ death and resurrection into a universal theology based on faith alone. Thus, while Jesus inspired the faith, Christianity as a distinct, organized religion is fundamentally the product of Paul's radical theological innovations, not a simple unfolding of Jesus' original mission.
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@Shila
What is your point? Halel is not the same as Kosher, it is similar, but not the same. As for Muslims outnumbering Christians, again what is your point?
That Muslims conceive more than Christians?
The number attributed to Muslims is much lower in reality, the same can be said of Christendom. Many Muslims are only muslim because its culturally damaging to leave the faith, and at least in some countries, outright illegal. Islam is also not spreading via conversion nearly as much as it is via birth. More people probably leave Islam than convert those who convert to it.
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@Shila
I disagree for a few reasons.
First of all, Jesus' ministry was Jewish-Covenantal. Jesus lived, worked, and died within the framework of Jewish Law. He repeatedly instructs torah observance, and sent his disciples only to jews ( Matthew 10:5-6)
Paul preached salvation by faith alone, without works of the Law (Romans 3:28).
He taught that circumcision, kosher laws, and Sabbath observance were non-essential or even obsolete for Gentile believers (Galatians 5, Colossians 2)
Jesus rarely spoke about his death as an atoning sacrifice in a systematic theological way.
Paul builds an entire doctrinal structure around the cross as the centerpiece of salvation (1 Corinthians 1:18, Romans 5).
Concepts like "original sin" (Romans 5:12-19) and "justification by faith" are Pauline constructions, not explicit teachings of Jesus.
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@Tradesecret
Jews of the time, including the apostles, were still Torah-observant — but the label's very appearance marks a public perception of a different movement.
"The organization of the Church is actually very close (even the worship services) to the synagogue of the then Jews. Paul did have an impact — but he received his understanding directly from Jesus — according to his testimony."
Paul explicitly rejected Mosaic markers like circumcision and kosher (Galatians 5:2-6, Romans 14).
His "testimony" (e.g., Galatians 1:11-12) is his own claim, not independent verification.
In reality, Paul's theology moves radically away from Jewish covenantal identity towards faith-alone universalism, which Jesus himself never taught explicitly.
"Jesus very often in the Gospels talks about the faith of those who came to him. And how it helped in their healing or miracles. Also, there is a serious debate about the direction of the purpose of the Law in the OT."
Jesus’ discussions of faith do not suggest faith replacing Torah observance.
Gentile examples (Rahab, Ruth) were exceptions, not norms — and even they converted into Israel, accepting Torah obligations.
According to Christian scripture we see that he healed Gentiles rarely and made it clear (Matthew 15:24):
"I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
When the Temple was destroyed the heart and soul of the Jewish religion stopped. Two new cults sprung up. One called the Christians, and one by the Pharisees.
Wrong framing.
Rabbinic Judaism developed as the legitimate continuation of Second Temple practices post-destruction — preserving covenantal loyalty without the Temple.
"Christianity" was already diverging under Paul decades before 70 AD.
The Temple's destruction accelerated but did not cause the split — Paul’s own letters show the theological divergence happening in the 40s and 50s AD
In doing this, Paulian Christianity starts to deviate from the historical Jesus, who lived, taught, and died as a faithful Jew.Again, very much disputed. Paul followed Christ. He didn't deviate.
Absolutely incorrect:
Paul deviates sharply by abandoning key Jewish practices:
Circumcision (Galatians 5:2)
Kosher (Romans 14)
Sabbath (Colossians 2:16-17)
Jesus never did this. Paul’s Jesus is a cosmic, preexistent Logos (Philippians 2:6-11), whereas the historical Jesus spoke as a prophet within Judaism.
Paul is building a theological system that extends beyond Jesus’ explicit teachings.
Paul and Jesus' teachings are consistent. Jesus of course is the one we worship.
Jesus taught Torah observance until heaven and earth pass away (Matthew 5:18).
Paul taught freedom from the Law (Roman 7:6)
Christians follow Christ Jesus. Paul is important but insignificant next to Christ.
Jesus preached primarily to Jews, about Israel, about repentance, and about the coming Kingdom — not about a Gentile universal church.
Major Christian doctrines — grace alone, faith alone, salvation apart from works of the Law — are Pauline formulations.
While Christ is the object of worship, Paul is the architect of Christian theology.
Without Paul's letters, there would be no:
Soteriology (salvation theology)Ecclesiology (church organization)
Christology (preexistent Christ)
Paul is far from "insignificant" — he defines how Christians interpret Christ.
Interesting suspicion but debunked on many levels.
Acts 15 (Jerusalem Council) records Paul arguing against circumcision for Gentiles.
Paul removed kosher obligations (Romans 14), Sabbath requirements (Colossians 2:16), and deliberately made Christianity accessible to Gentiles by discarding Jewish boundary markers.
It worked: Gentiles flooded in, and the Jewish identity of the movement vanished within a generation.
As for the authors you referenced, I can't say I have read them, what can you recommend, and if you would be so kind as to provide a quick description of your top picks I'd be grateful.
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Christians follow a man, named Saul of Tarsus, who was a jew, but who abandoned the faith, and opened up early Christianity (A sect of Judaism) into a wholly different faith, Christianity.
I suspect, Saul felt the sect would die if more weren't allowed to join. Therefor he got rid of circumcision, sabbath, kosher, and many other things required of jews, to make the faith appear more welcoming to Gentiles, and it worked. Gentiles joined fast, and the faith spread steadily.
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