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@David
Perhaps it was the hundreds of idiot teenagers that drove him to his madness! And boy was he mad. I voted for you on some objective morality debate and he flew into rage about it over the course of nearly a hundred rage fueled PMes! Crazy!
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Very unbecoming of a biology teacher. May he find peace in haranguing someone with hundreds of messages via PM on some other site! ;-)
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@Vader
Being a master-debater and $5.00 is enough to get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. :\
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Visited Warren's house last night. Found a dried up crusty sock under the bed. :/
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@Wylted
I accept that debate provided it's 3 rounds and 8k per round! =)
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I think I get the other references, but who is "Castrol the Token-Female-Character?"
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@Raltar
A shame to see you go. I liked reading your posts and liked the way you handled your religious debate with Alec.
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Which thread did this happen in?Also to stop people from asking I got banned 5 days for threat reporting Poly and my rants on her.
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@ResurgetExFavilla
If they're the old money, I must be ancient! Back in my day, votebombing was as easy creating a bunch of accounts on your computer and destroying the win ratios of your enemies! And there was nothing to be done about it! =)No he joined a year or so after me and I consider myself as being a newcomer compared to most of the DDO blue bloods. The only real old money ddo people on here are thett and coal.
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@MagicAintReal
Of course it's correct. It's your hyper-literal interpretation of it that is false and the book of Job is proof. Just because the devil is a liar does not mean it is an attribute he always employs.
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@MagicAintReal
You said "it's always expected of the devil to deceive, except for writing the bible." I showed you a whole book of the devil not deceiving anybody. That's mate, again. No more mulligans. =)
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@MagicAintReal
If there's no truth in the devil, then we would expect him to always be deceitful.
See the first two chapters. No deceit involved whatsoever. And that's mate again. No more (goalpost shifting) mulligans. =)
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@MagicAintReal
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@MagicAintReal
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@MagicAintReal
It's funny that a guy named logical master doesn't understand that using a special pleading fallacy (it's always expected of the devil to deceive, except forwriting the bible)
;-)
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@MagicAintReal
Why is the devil writing the bible a remote possibility?Seriously, you've not said why.
lol.
Thanks for playing! Have a good one! =D
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@MagicAintReal
Why is this type of deception just not POSSIBLE in the devil's house?This is where you've dodged.
*7 posts earlier*
Straight to the point, but this is the general gists of what I was getting at with the Matrix/Harry Potter example (reductio ad absurdum aside). No sane person spends their life worrying about every single remote possibility out there. It's possible the devil wrote the Bible and also possible that the moon is chocked full of spare ribs!
Like I said, that's mate, lol.
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@RationalMadman
I try not to disclose any PM related conversations, so if any of the mods care to verify what I said, they're welcome to. I've got no dog in this fight, so it makes no difference to me.
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@Raltar
I've got no dog in this current fight and won't hesitate to publicly criticize moderation decisions or state what I think needs to be done (and I do believe a lot needs to be done here), but speaking in fairness, I was approached by the mods and was considered a candidate for the role of moderator at one point and I'm a conservative Christian. Granted, I'm more a classic liberal than anything else. Needless to say, I turned the offer down due to time constraints.
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@disgusted
Are you asking for a passage from the bible? That would be pointless, the bible is full of lies so if that passage existed it would be a lie, or would be the only truthful passage in the bible designed to bamboozle all the bible believers because the devil is the master of the lie.Which door would your brother tell me to choose?
It's full of lies so wouldn't that also subject the notion of the devil being the master of lies as also being lie?
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@MagicAintReal
If we're talking about the POSSIBILITY of there being a deceptive trick in the Devil's house, you have to admit that at least the writing of the bible, being that it's a deceptive trick, is POSSIBLE to exist in the devil's house.If it's the case that the Matrix is in fact a real thing and deceiving humans' life is in the house of the matrix, then yeah it's possible we live in the matrix.If it's the case that Valdemort being transsexual and a twin of harry potter is in Valdemort's house, then it is possible he is a transsexual twin.
It's almost as if you haven't read a single word I've said throughout this conversation. Either that or you're just trolling me. :\
Why is this type of deception just not POSSIBLE in the devil's house?This is where you've dodged.
And that's 'mate:
^Straight to the point, but this is the general gists of what I was getting at with the Matrix/Harry Potter example (reductio ad absurdum aside). No sane person spends their life worrying about every single remote possibility out there. It's possible the devil wrote the Bible and also possible that the moon is chocked full of spare ribs!
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@MagicAintReal
I'm not the one claiming to know what the bible says
Go read the Bible . Find a passage that supports "the devil wrote the Bible." Give me a reason to consider that notion beyond "it's possible because the devil is really sneaky!" Do it in the next post. =)
Here are literally all of your responses:
No indication, against the devil's nature per scripture, reductio ad absurdum. Your response: *ignore the answer and repeat/rephrase the question ad infinitum*
Notice here, instead of pointing to bible evidence
You've been given bible evidence by multiple people in this thread and your response has basically been "how do we know the bible evidence isn't part of the trick as well?" hahahaha, it's a lame argument. I never simply said "Harry Potter/Matrix", but that more than suffices. =)
They are not analogous because there's no authority book claiming that there are houses of particular characters.
C'mon man, I don't mind the sophistry, but at least make it interesting. You can do better than that. You're asking us how we know the devil isn't deceiving us. When given reasons, you ask how we know the devil didn't plant those reasons to keep the deception going. By that token, you can question anything. Be it us living in the Matrix or be it you being on an extended acid trip revolving around the devil playing 4D chess. Doesn't matter whether an "authority book" is involved. We're talking about entertaining possibilities that have zero support and contradicted by all other evidence. Pure and simple. If you want to play the sophist game correctly, go find a Bible passage you think you can spin the context on enough to make the argument you're trying to make. I could at least have some fun with that. But this "I'm not the one claiming to know what the Bible says", "the Matrix is not a good analogy since it's not a book!" or "I don't understand the Matrix enough to determine whether it exist" is just plain lazy.
I don't understand enough about the matrix to make a determination
Sounds like you need to be more worried about Agent Smith kicking your ass than you do about Christians thinking the devil didn't write the Bible. :P
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@MagicAintReal
So, in Voldemort's house is being a transsexual twin of harry potter there, yes or no?
Show me the passage where "writing the Bible" is in the devil's house. Failure to do this will result in the end of this conversation.
Why can't a bible deception be in the house of the devil, you've yet to respond to this.
Nope, have answered it. Find someone who thinks I haven't answered (multiple times at that) and I'll happily address them. =)
Answer directly, not with shitty analogies.
Sounds like an opinion. Prove they're shitty. Then we'll take it from there. =)
Except I'm not claiming I understand the Matrix's house.
Oh? Do you believe we're in the Matrix?
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@MagicAintReal
You don't see any indication, therefore it's not possible.
Straw-man fallacy.
Is being Harry Potter's twin transsexual in Valdemort's house?Is being in the 12th dimension in Valdemort's house?
Voldemort is duplicitous, obsessed with Harry Potter and is an other worldly being. If I'm to go by your logic, these possibilities are fair game.
Why can't a bible deception be in the house of the devil, you've yet to respond to this.
Have answered it multiple times. As the judge would put it, move along counsel!
Respond to how you know, without personal incredulity that the deception through bible writing is not in the devil's house, but deception in general is.
Same way you know, without personal incredulity that the limitations of the human mind is not cause to believe nor even consider that we're in the Matrix.
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@keithprosser
^Straight to the point, but this is the general gists of what I was getting at with the Matrix/Harry Potter example (reductio ad absurdum aside). No sane person spends their life worrying about every single remote possibility out there. It's possible the devil wrote the Bible and also possible that the moon is chocked full of spare ribs!I don't know why LM doesn't just say 'If the devil wrote the Bible to fool me, then he succeeded.' Clearly LM thinks it a risk worth taking and I agree with him - the chances the devil wrote the bible are indeed effectively zero.
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@MagicAintReal
If this were court, you'd here somebody say objection asked and answered right about now.
Yes. I see no indication of the devil having wrote the Bible. Just as I see no indication that we live in the Matrix, that Voldemort is Harry Potter's twin transsexual counterpart from the 12th dimension or that I am simply a brain in an empty vat.Can you marry C1 and this response together?
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@MagicAintReal
Which brings us right back to our conversation about Harry Potter, the Matrix, any work of fiction you'd like to substitute or brains in jars if you'd like to get some Descartes up in here! We can take your logic and apply it to anything.
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@MagicAintReal
We don't know everything in his house. We do, however, have a very solid grasp of his nature. And encouraging Christians to live a life free of sin and reliant on God is as contrary to his nature as you can get.
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@MagicAintReal
Yes, this is exactly what I was trying to get to with my questions...I'm here to learn too, what does Matt 12:22-28 say on the matter?
It says that a house divided against itself cannot stand and that Satan (the devil) is not going to do anything in opposition to his own house (i.e. cast out demons).
So if good things are happening, it can't be the devil?
Nah.
Well, if it's the case that the devil will not partake in anything that goes against his house, how do you know everything in his house?
We don't know everything in his house. We do, however, have a very solid grasp of his nature. And encouraging Christians to live a life free of sin and reliant on God is as contrary to his nature as you can get.
HAHAHAH awesome.If Valdemort were wont to be transsexual and behaved regularly in the 12th dimension then this analogy would hold.However, the devil is known to play tricks, known to try to deceive people, and known to be very powerful, so wouldn't it be well within his house to deceive people with a book?
The dark lord is no stranger to tricks and deception himself. Who is to say this Tom Riddle stuff wasn't just a clever ruse to hide his real secret? Perhaps that's the real reason he's so obsessed with Mr. Potter! Hell, maybe he's in love with him! Would explain all of the creepy fanfics on the subject . . . *yikes*
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@MagicAintReal
Hahaha, nice hedge, but the assertive "is literally an appeal to ignorance" was not referencing my questions when I asked where the conclusions were? Come on.
When you throw in comments like wanting to see theist "wriggle' around your questions, refer to God as "goody god" and consistently believe that lowercasing the g in God (proper noun btw) actually means something, your purpose and conclusions in making this thread are pretty implicit. Feel free to clarify otherwise though! =)
Right, but if I were claiming that I can tell the difference between Neo and Agent Smith and you asked me, how do you know if Neo's not just Agent Smith fuckin' with you, and I'm all like well the Matrix says Neo's Neo and Agent Smith's Agent Smith, this didn't go to any length to distinguish the two characters. This is the problem.
No, that's not a problem. That'd just be a method of reasoning you were arbitrarily determined to exclude to the Matrix as opposed to applying in any other avenue of life. Maybe you are in the Matrix. Prove you're not by means other than "I say so." Hell, maybe Agent Smith has deliberately made the film The Matrix to keep us none the wiser about that the events of a seemingly fictional film are in fact being the reality of things. Prove that's not what's happening. And don't mind me, but I'm just legitimately curious as to whether we live in the Matrix.
Yeah, I want to know how you attribute the effects you believe are of god's doing exclusively to god, and, if it's the case there is another entity that's made by god, really powerful, eager to go against god, and wont to play tricks on people, how do you exclude the devil's involvement?
From a Christian standpoint, we can close the book on the "the devil is pulling all the strings" theory with Matthew 12:22-28. The devil is not going to partake in anything that goes against his own house, including the principle of Christians rejecting their sinful nature and living by their faith and works. That's just silly. Now if you can actually demonstrate through scripture why this theory is worth any more consideration than us being in the Matrix, I'm happy to discuss it further! Hell, look at it from non-theist standpoint: Why in the world should Harry Potter fans consider for one moment that Voldemort is secretly Harry's twin transsexual counterpart from the 12th dimension? Voldemort is a pretty tricky bastard after-all!
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@Castin
Nope, they apply. In my case, I break the rules rather often unfortunately. No man is without sin.
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@MagicAintReal
Which is why I say your questions are laced with the fallacy. The fact that a Christian cannot prove that the devil wrote the Bible and isn't simply playing some crazed game of 4D chess with them is of no concern to a Christian whatsoever just as the fact you cannot prove you aren't currently hooked up to some massive energy draining machine from The Matrix should be of no concern to you either! Now if you actually agree with this and are legitimately curious about Christianity, I'm happy to retract my accusation. =)
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@MagicAintReal
Any conclusion drawn on the premise that X cannot proven (i.e. how do you know the devil didn't write the the Bible to deceive you?) is literally an appeal to ignorance.
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@MagicAintReal
That's my response. That it flew over your head is not my problem. =)
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@MagicAintReal
Yeah, so I want to see how a theist wriggles out of this.
Continually spamming a series of appeal to ignorance laced questions isn't exactly wriggle inducing. :\
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@Castin
You misunderstand. By "trials are a non-starter", I mean they are against the rules and an experiment will not be allowed. Seeing how they work is not an option. The only option is discussion of hypotheticals.
Per my exchange with bsh1 earlier, the issue appeared to be more about mod discretion and perception of what offense was more serious when I alluded to multiple drama-garden threads open/unmodded ATM. But I digress.
In regards to your earlier point, I'd say that if a thread celebrating RM's ban produced an acceptable level of drama, I don't see the harm with a neutral trial thread. Up-in-air distinction doesn't appear to matter since RM's post-ban has generated continuous drama. Come to think of it, I don't even see the harm with drama . . . outside of the need for it to be housed in a separate sub-forum (sandbox/soapbox forum with a more relaxed ruleset). Right now, these RM threads are just cluttering this section imo.
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@coal
The process must be arbitrary, if you're making it up as you go along or coming up with rules after the fact.
Well yeah, it's an experiment. A proposed experiment which would have no binding/effect on any decision here whatsoever. An experiment is premised on seeing what works what doesn't. If the whole thing didn't turn out to be a walking disaster and was something people were interested in seeing implemented, that would then be the time to discuss and fine-tune a specific set of rules.
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@coal
You got me. I wasn't satisfied with the mods hogging all the fun of kicking RM off the island, so I want to go through the lengthy process of doing it myself. Brilliant .
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@Castin
@coal
@Castin
I appreciate that, but as trials are a non-starter, we can only discuss them hypothetically. So I'm talking about them with you in the only way that's really possible, as I see it. The only alternative is to not hear you out at all.
I'm more interested in seeing how they work than speculating. Admittedly, I don't know one way or another what ramifications a structured trial would work nor does anybody. If you don't want to hear me out at all, that's your prerogative, but you'll forgive me if I think the words "trials are a non-starter" is a pretty solid indicator of you not wanting to hear me out at all. Now if you are interested in hearing me out and just have some legit concerns about the effects a mere experiment would have, that's different and I'm happy to address them!
@Coal
Does this mean that mods are a better alternative? No... of course not, but that's of peripheral concern to me.
How is it peripheral though? Every point you've raised about the flaws in attempting to conduct a fair trial on a website, we could equally apply to relying on moderators to govern said site in the first place. Governing where substance and procedure is . . . . damn near nonexistent. And that's okay I guess since it's just a random message board, but the point is that we're not using real world metrics to operate no matter how you look at it. Every single procedural safeguard you've mentioned is the result of hundreds of years of jurisprudence and a necessary restraint on our government's ability to deny its citizens their life and liberty. Whereas here, we're merely talking some dude's ability to kick another off a message board he doesn't even have the right to use in the first place. As such, I think we can safely disregard the real-world differences in this process and focus on the idea alone which is to permit users to have the opportunity to have their cases heard by their peers.
Not that the idea alone is without its flaws. Although I never expect a message-board trial system to even begin approach the procedural safeguards we have in real-life (safeguards which, in the criminal system at least, are statistically meaningless for those don't have money---but I digress), I think an experiment at least offers the opportunity to flesh and address some of these flaws. If we ever got past the experiment stage, we could probably work on crafting a streamlined DART rules of evidence/ procedure!
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@Vader
Whoops. Didn't see yours until now. Go ahead and accept since I think PRO should go first. I'll accept your rendering of the terms as provided in your debate setup though!
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@Vader
- Topic: The user known as SupaDudz should ask out his crush as soon as reasonably possible!
- Three Rounds
- 4000 Characters per round
- Open Voting
- BOP is equal
- Point System: Winner Selection
- Voting Period: One month
- I'm PRO.
- No semantics.
- Ask out can mean anything from asking her on a date, asking her to be your girlfriend.
- As soon as reasonably possible means the next time you have a reasonable opportunity to talk to her without any unrelated pressing concerns that would get in the way (i.e. you're going on vacation, she's in the hospital, etc)
That's about all I can think of!
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@Vader
If I challenged you to a debate on whether you should ask out your crush ASAP, would you accept?
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@Castin
We don't need to speculate about what would and wouldn't happen with a structured trial, Castin. Not when we can simply conduct an experiment and make conclusions afterwards. I happen to disagree that the trial of some no-name user nobody cares about would "stir up" drama, but there's only one objective way to find out. At which point if the idea ends up being a disaster, we can all agree it forum-trials suck and move on!I can think of several members whose bans didn't stir up much drama. But had they been put on trial, their bans absolutely would have stirred up drama. It's a question of degree. While bans already can cause drama, it's drama about a decision that's already been made and is final. There's a whole other world of drama when the outcome is still up in the air, as in a trial.
If you accept just any volunteer for juror I think you'd be leaning closer toward mob rule. How would you ensure that responsible people are selected for the jury
As I said in my OP, the prosecution and defense will ultimately have to agree on who is/isn't part of the jury. The first thing I would do after getting enough volunteers is to have the prosecutor and defense attorney engage in the real world process known as Voir Dire. They would ultimately determine who was in the jury by process of elimination. Should this process get implemented on an official level, we can go even further with jury selection techniques. Comparing jury trials is mob rule is akin to comparing moderators to dictators IMO. It's an absolute extreme of what can happen without the proper precautions taken on the front end.
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@Vader
Does she have any inkling about how you feel? Has she read any of the poems?
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@Vader
Is she also the person in "Go away love"
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@Vader
If you don't mind me asking . . .
While everyone steps over us
Or ignores our troubles
A faint smile in distance
Whiter than a fresh pack of golf balls
Straighter than a 180 degree angle
A smile so bright
The sun would be jealous
The only person that notices me in the mud
Helping me up from life's harsh ways
To give us a hug
And say it’s ok
Laugh with us
Sing with us
Dance with us
Make the world's problems go away
An angel sent from heaven
Eyes blue, like ocean waves dancing
Long and brown, like one of the craziest water slides
Who IRL are you referring to here?
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