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@Polytheist-Witch
That's homophobic.
I didn't mean it to be and I'm certainly not homophobic. It was just colourful language coming off the top of my head as per usual.
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@fauxlaw
Jesus did not coerce them in any way
I think that any charismatic charlatan who talks gullible, naive people into thinking in a particular way or doing things, is in effect coercing them.
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@TheUnderdog
I made no claim and any claim I do make is thoroughly researched, is properly reasoned and logical.
Are you going to contribute to the topic rather than make delaying and sidetracking questions?
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@fauxlaw
ones and Koresh accomplished their own eradication of their respective groups. Not so, Jesus Christ. comparing apples and oranges.
I was careful enough to use the appropriate terminology; Christ was responsible for the death of thousands.
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@3RU7AL
Whether or not a directive comes from the Ten Commandments or not my intention was to highlight the tendency of Christians to hide behind their faith when it comes to vilifying homosexuals.
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@Castin
I see people never grow tired of the Atheist/Theist Historical Blamethrowing game."No ur ideology killed more people.""No UR ideology killed more people."
However one should not ignore the facts and the facts do show a disproportionately higher rate of death and suffering due to religious conflict, i.e. religious zealots at each others thrats trying to prove who has the best imaginary friend.
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@MisterChris
When athiests do wrong, just call them religious
However, I am talking specifically here about communism and even more in particular, Stalinism which was a Totalitarian regime which is dictatorial and requires complete subservience to the state. Similarly, religion requires complete subservience to God. Even though there is no supernatural component, for all intents and purposes Stalinism was an ideology. By definition religion is a radical ideology.
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@Theweakeredge
Therefore - to use it as some kind of standard is a lie at best.
You can believe whatever you like but the fact that IQ tests have been extensively used for decades by educationalists and psychologists, experts in their fields must hold more than the slightest bit of credibility.
I am a pretty influential, intelligent and highly intellectual guy but just because I refuse to do your homework when you demand proof it doesn't mean it isn't so. No sirree, all you need to do if you doubt something nowadays is simply Google it and hey presto, the answer is there for you. Even my three year old daughter understands that concept and she looks things up...great kid.
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@RationalMadman
depicts religious outlooks and philosophical concepts
That is gilding the lily to put it mildly.
Your so-called religious outlooks and philosophical concepts happen to include the promotion of doom and gloom and profound fear of being sent into an eternal life of damnation in hell.
And you think it is acceptable to expose kids to that sort of morbid nonsense?
And whilst you're at it, you may want to cut the trolling remarks.
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@Theweakeredge
I've given you the proof in the other forum we've discussed your "confidence" in IQ tests is precisely the same as Theists' "confidence" in God. .....unreasonable theist
You've had plenty of opportunity to address the topic and absurd, weird trolling is hardly the way to go.
I have posted a serious, contentious, socially conscious subject and I suggest that if you are hell-bent on continually trying to divert the topic with repetitive, frivolous nonsense then don't bother posting at all.
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@MisterChris
Don't start petty games you can't win.
I'm not here to play games, least of all petty games. Nor do I set out to win anything.
Communism is no different to religion and is for all intents and purposes a religion.
Lest we forget that the Catholic Church was a supporter and financial sponsor of the Nazi Party.
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@RationalMadman
I see, so suppress and censor, like they do with evolution and other religions in Sharia nations? :)
Come on, there's no need to take what I said to extremes and make a total lie of it. I said "restriction". Geezis bleeding Kerrist. Give some idiots an inch and they'll take a thousand miles.
As for your 'theory' it makes no sense.
My so-called "theory" may not make much sense to you but that is not surprising given your interpretation in the previous last example.
Poor try....you need to make a better attempt to get on the right page.
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@RationalMadman
How do clamp down
One suggestion I have already made is to restrict religion being taught to minors, we already do this with the sale of tobacco and alcohol.
and how do you know they don't believe what they're preaching?
Because I didn't come down in the last shower. Preachers are really atheists who have a penchant for control and power and use religion to achieve their own ends. They know very well that what they preach is utter crap. In this day and age of free access to quality information there is no excuse for a religious preacher to claim that he doesn't know any better.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Christ was a Christian?
Good question. I am making the assumption that Christ allegedly founded the Christian religion. It wasn't until some 300 years later that the faith was resurrected according to my knowledge.
Nevertheless, despite the flavor of the religion, each of the three founded cults and followed similar patterns.
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@Theweakeredge
In other words - you have no proof that IQ tests are actually useful in measuring anything?
No, if you want to find out, you look it up. I am satisfied that the IQ testing which has been used for many years is the best assessment that we have and have no reason to question it.
Nevertheless, even if you did get off your behind and do your own research, I'm sure that you will find any other excuse you can think of to avoid addressing the question posed in the OP. Might my suspicion be correct?
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@zedvictor4
How do we judge the gullible?
How we should judge the gullible is that they are pathetic in the true sense of the word. We can help them with counselling or maybe medication but as with other psychological conditions, the subject must be willing. What we can do more effectively is to clamp down on those who take advantage of the weak, gullible, naive and impressionable.
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@fauxlaw
some fall into poundmethomas' pounding by pounding back. No book should suffer that fate, because it does take a lot of beating.
I agree. I remember all too fondly the Bible fights we used to have at Sunday School whenever our teacher had to excuse herself to take a dump. No, we weren't fighting over the translation of text; we would hurl them at each other. Those books sure took a beating.
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Let's look at three similar scenarios: Jim Jones and his cult, David Koresh and his cult and Jesus Christ and his cult.
Upon his death, Jones was responsible for the death of nearly 1000 people, Koresh took around 70 with him and Christ was responsible for the death of thousands of persecuted Christians by the time he grasped a couple of 6 inch nails; not to mention the millions of people who suffered and died in his name afterwards.
Each of these three charismatic charlatans claimed to be the son of God and preached pretty much the same things to their naive, gullible followers. So, how should we judge these self-proclaimed leaders of society?
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@zedvictor4
Citing a supernatural guy up a mountain somewhere, as justification, was a tad audacious.....But some people will believe anything.
And some people will pass the buck when it comes to taking responsibility for their own shortcomings or prejudices. "I'm not anti-poofter but the Bible does say........."
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@fauxlaw
Did I not address it, now in my #15? Seems some of us do not see the forest for the trees.
Well of course we should not overlook the fact that my slightly cryptical OP addresses the age-old excuse that theists use for vilifying homosexuals, i.e., because the Bible says so. But at least you demonstrated the tendency to interpret to suit one's needs or to avoid the intent.
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@Nevets
Perhaps we are not looking for a family with the surname Christ however?
Yes, it will more likely turn out that Jesus was an illegal Puerto Rican immigrant doing drug running.
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@zedvictor4
Perhaps trees know the answer?
They probably do you know.
I do a lot of woodworking and you get to have a great affinity towards trees and wood and man, they can tell you an awful lot about what's going on and what has gone on in nature. Gee, I think I just had a spiritual thought.
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@fauxlaw
ALL CHRISTIANS.
You are making things up just for the sake of it.
See what delusion does?
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@Nevets
Even if we doubt his divinity and the miraculous claims attributed to him, there is evidence to suggest he was at the very least historical, and there probably was indeed a man named Jesus Christ with a mother probably named Mary?
I think that there is a general consensus between historians, both theist and atheist that Jesus Christ did exist.
There is no reason to disbelieve that Christ was any different to any other charismatic religious leader claiming to be the son of God, for example, Jim Jones and David Koresh.
I'm sure that in say, three hundred years time, someone will miraculously stumble upon some of the diaries written by Jones's disciples portraying the man as someone of everything righteous and loving. Then, off we go again. For as long as we have unscrupulous entrepreneurs greedy for wealth and power and for as long as we have naive, gullible nitwits falling for these charlatans, we will have religion.
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@Stephen
You may well have done but YOUR thread title is a question that askes : Why Do Theists Have Lower IQs? <<<<<<<<< that's a claim, that you have made? If you had the brains it may have served you better to have dropped the "why" from your title and you may have not painted yourself into a corner.....IF you had the brains.
Why is the sky blue?
Why do chickens have legs?
Why do theists have lower IQs .....since the fact is that there are around 12,000,000 Google search results outlining resaearch studies carried out by qualified experts that confirm the fact that theists do have lower IQs.
You see, the reason why I did treat Lower IQs as a given is because it is an established fact. I did not establish the fact and jumping up and down like a spoilt brat won't change the fact. If theists extract their heads from the sand and comit themselves to promoting well-rounded education programs for kids then I have no doubt that the fact will change.
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@fauxlaw
That's like asking when did God create graves. He didn't, we did.
Maybe I could construct threads that are one dimensional, unambiguous, uncontentious, non-confronting......something like this........."Renowned scientists have unearthed fossil specimens that date back millions of years yet according to Christians the earth was created 6000 years ago. What is the reason for the discrepancy?"
.....But that isn't going to happen.
It doesn't matter how I word a thread and I am constantly aware that the slightest criticism of religion will be met with disproportional vitriol and personal attacks. I can't help that since it is the nature of those who are ridden with guilt through believing and disseminating gross lies.
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@fauxlaw
Stop blaming God until we have done all that we can do. We're barely scratching the surface because we turn our free agency in to greed.
Excellent post and I sincerely hope you're right here.
I am optimistic enough to believe that the wealth that is accumulated by the few will continue to trickle into those areas responsible for eliminating poverty. People like Gates and Buffet are putting billions into these areas although my criticism is that, unlike government or world agencies, they are cherry-picking (lovely term) which charities to fund. Which brings us back to the dangers of those with money and power making the decisions.
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@Stephen
FFS you really are a cretin aren't you?You have asked this question before too . Do you take me for a complete twat!?
No, I'm not certain and so what if it has been raised before but there's no need to get your Calvin Kleins in a twist.
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@Stephen
Tertullian and his claim of "a diabolical mimicry". I give him 10/10 for imagination.
Excellent reference.
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@janesix
Do you care? Are you doing anything about it?
Yes I do and yes I am however the topic is about whether or not God cares or whether God does anything about it. Of course it is a leading and rhetorical question since there is no such thing as God. If there were an all-loving passionate God as religious people claim, such a God would not allow such wholesale waste of innocent lives happen.
What is sad is that theists invent all sorts of excuses and contrived reasons as to why their imaginary friend apparently does nothing. But that is all part of the condition commonly known as delusion.
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@fauxlaw
I notice your Q1-4Q5: Every season
In other words, you have no intention whatsoever to address the issue raised in the OP whatsoever, i.e. that Christians discriminate against and vilify gays. You are not obliged to take part in discussing serious issues and if persistent trolling and dodging is your want it doesn't bother me. It is you who is showing yourself up and being consistent with and proving the point that those of a strong religious disposition are both ignorant and arrogant.
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It was only a minute ago that you were complaining of "semantics".
No, it was five hours ago.
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@Theweakeredge
you have necessarily claimed that theists have lower IQ than an average population
I said, "There is a plethora of authoritative and properly researched reports relating to lower IQs in theists"
I also said, "Have you bothered to search the topic? I got 12,200,000 hits....."
So, all you need to do is copy this....... Why Do Theists Have Lower IQs? then paste it into the Google search bar, hit "Enter" then you can select as many of the 12,200,000 proofs as you like. And guess which article comes up first...now you have to give that some credibility.
Then of course, you may feel at liberty to address the topic......unless of course you begin to feel more at liberty to make up more diversions in order to avoid the topic and try to deliberately discredit the author. Not at all the most kosher of tactics, are they?
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@Stephen
This same question was asked years ago. Have a look.
And you have an even closer look. The OP was "What Is a God?"
And the thread was entirely different and has absolutely nothing to do with the thread I made which apart from touching on female abuse also infers that God raped Mary by today's standards.
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@Theweakeredge
You have made a claim
Maybe we would get somewhere if you proved that I made a claim in the first place. What claim?
And is it an hallucinogenic that you are on because you should ease up a bit?
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@rosends
....the tyler site is useful......
...as udders on a bull.
Attacking the site is warranted because it is amateur, cheap and radical and deserves absolutely no consideration.
So what anyway...how about addressing the topic?
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@Theweakeredge
So its not just me? Your bullshitting is just you everyday? I see - present the evidence. Present the proof
I don't know what on earth you're talking about but let me know what you are on so that I can make a point of avoiding it.
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@Polytheist-Witch
You can't have ego and spirituality.
That must surely win first place in the absurd statement stakes.
Spirituality is nothing but pure ego and absolutely nothing else.
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@ludofl3x
I think you're a better thinker than this.
And certainly a better thinker than those who do not address the topic and instead invent every excuse or diversion not to.
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@Stephen
Yep. And it will get better. He will start denying that he started a thread that has his name down as the author.
So, that is your prophesy, is it?
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@MisterChris
- existing theories always change in light of new information, and that goes for the religious as well as the naturalistic. For one of many examples, in recent history, the majority of athiests believed in the Steady State Theory to avoid the reality that the universe must have had a beginning. Most athiests have had to alter their beliefs in light of a plethora of evidence that suggests otherwise.
- On that note, there is a good argument that science doesn't challenge theism so much as bring positive evidence for theism (I can get into this evidence but I believe you've heard the arguments). Even if you don't believe that positive evidence, this undercuts your theory that OEC is simply based on a "god of the gaps".
- most scientific study throughout history was conducted by, yes, Christians. There are always those who stick stubbornly to tradition in every era, but this is not exclusive to Christianity nor is it representative of some sort of fundamental conflict between scientific progress and religion.
- there are more than a few Christians who took the Genesis account non-literally before Old Earth Theory even arose.
We are not talking generally here but specifically about the fact that the Bible and Christians believed that God created life in seven days and that the world flooded, and while we are at it, the universe is 6000 years old. It was scientists (and not theists) who have confirmed otherwise and thus turned the Bible into what it is now universally known as...a book of myths and completely wrong information and not the word of God. These are fundamentally glaring errors on behalf of Christians and have completely put an end to any authenticity or truth whatsoever about their contrived beliefs.
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@MisterChris
.........but I don't believe you have any interest in learning.
That's belief for you.
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@ludofl3x
How many different usernames are you going to use to post this same topic?
How many times are theists going to stick their heads in the sand and avoid a legitimate concern raised by legitimate, concerned people?
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@MisterChris
There are many Christians who believe in the old Earth and do not take such accounts (7 Day Creation and the Flood) literally, but they are still "Creationists" in the sense that they believe God created
I may sound cynical however I suspect that Christians who still believe in creation and not the Flood or Seven Days do so because they have been caught out by what we have found out factually in recent times.
The more facts we establish, the more these people will be forced into the corner each time they shed their errant beliefs.
In any case it is pretty well game, set and match so far as evolution goes which pretty well puts the kibosh on anything to do with creation.
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@MisterChris
Creationism =/= YEC necessarily.
Okay, I have encountered this sort of code before.
Can you please translate for this idiot?
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@Theweakeredge
please demonstrate the metric by which IQ tests are useful.
You can keep asking that question till the cows come home but my answer is still the same....No. But so what?
I can keep asking the OP question for ever and a day but I won't....it is up to your conscience whether or not you decide to answer. But isn't it very telling?
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@Stephen
And you appear to have dodged this too.#19 didn't take long to get you on the back foot did it?
I didn't even notice it quite frankly but my answer is similar to the one you posed here. I am not an educationalist but I am damned sure that I wouldn't allow religion to be taught in schools, whether it be Christianity, Islam or otherwise. France has taken a stand on (no) religious instruction or even the wearing of religious apparel in schools and it would be interesting to see what has been done. I shall do some research.
I don't have an answer to this topic since I am an atheist and believe there is no God therefore I wouldn't know why God allegedly does or doesn't do, according to theists who this post is aimed at.
Am I deliberately posing a leading, rhetorical question? Yes I am. Do I expect theists to reply earnestly? No I don't but I'm sure it gives them something to think about.
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@Theweakeredge
You do remember my original contention right? I said that IQ tests are not a useful metric, and you responded that they are the most universally used and most effective way of the time of "measuring IQ" - yet you haven't even demonstrated that they can measure IQ.
That's right and nor do I intend to (demonstrate).
So, many hundreds of thousands of dollars have been spent on many research projects by many reputable and qualified specialists (more knowledgeable than you and I no doubt) and you are sitting there trying to insinuate that it is all a load of crap?
I more than suspect you are trying out any diversion or nitpick you can to muddy the topic without the slightest intent of actually addressing it.
For obvious reasons?
For my part I will continue to out theists who are intent on sticking their heads in the sand over legitimate problems with their faith. Yes there is much goodness and much good intent with religion but there is an awful lot wrong with it and the more theists are in denial, the worse they will get. And religious institutions are wondering why members are leaving in droves and are getting more out of touch with society?
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@rosends
The problem is that statistics can be used to support a variety of hypotheses but statistics don't explain causality (and often, the positive correlation between statistics is coincidental).A claim that "theists have lower IQs" is, first, incredibly reductionist. Next, it posits a truth based on a limited sample and the assumption that the IQ test is an objective arbiter of anything other than the efficacy of the IQ test. The IQ test asks for certain types of demonstration of "thinking" but not types that really capture a full sense of intelligence.What if we started with a population, and, as any proper distribution would dictate, there are people with lower IQs. Those people, hoping to make sense of a difficult to understand world see religion as an anchor. The choice to be a theist is then not something that limits IQ but is a function of that lower IQ. The topic should then be "why do people with lower IQs choose to be theists?" and it would be a very different thread.Or maybe, being a theist simply instructs people to think differently about the world and make decisions in a way which does not accord with the thinking required to score higher on an IQ test.
Never mind about the whys and wherefores and ins and outs of the wording, how about making a comment in relation to the thrust of the OP. In case you couldn't work it out, there have been many properly researched reports made by experts in their field which confirm that theists have lower IQs than normal people. So, the invitation is to say, make a comment (assuming you are a theist) as to what steps religious institutions are taking to address such an anomaly.
Oh, and frequenting amateurish, extremist, whacko sites will do nothing to enhance one's intellect.....tylervigen.com. Mind you the Neuroscience site does encapsulate basically the point that I am trying to convey with the skit. I think it is commonly known that theists are more predisposed to intuition, which although having its strengths also has distinct drawbacks when it comes to decision making.
What that report does not outline and others do is that a major contributing factor to (albeit slight) lower IQs is the restriction of learning during formative years which I touched on in the skit.
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