I'm not even sure what RFD stands for, i'm talking with bsh1 about it, you entered in biblical evidence that supports God forcing free will, yet it seems to be forgotten by you and dismissed by speedrace.
IF i may add a few things. the bible shows later on that it was an angel at sinai, not God or Jesus.
The name jesus in the hebrew is yushua, Which literally means "Jehovah/yahweh our salvation"
Emmanuel means God with us.
Referencing of shiloh reveals the aspect of PEACE. which jesus is later described as prince of peace. Which confirmed through the prophets.
christ english for the greek word for christo's which means "Anointed"
This debate is going to be troublesome for con, not only does he have deal with the scrolls and rabbi's but he also has to consider the apostles doctrines concerning christ.
Based on my voting, is it possible instead award the arguement to rational? Because he did give proof of God controlling free will, it was just swept under the rug so to speak.
Spirits when allowed to manifest are spotted quite often! angels, ghosts, demons. All manifestation of spirits. Also, don't dare to demean something spiritual with emotion, too many do that and fall into deception as it is.
Some of those questions you asked me did put me through the ringer, There is a lot i don't know about God or how he does things. But i do know that sometimes God would speak to those who believe in him (elect/fore ordained) and tell them to do something and they would either do it or not do it, regardless of the will. I don't have an answer for that, other than the will is more subtle in some cases than in others.
"You’re referring to Romans 3:11. The same chapter in verses 21-24 says “But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
So it’s saying that before the law, no one can choose God, but after and apart from it, righteousness is for everyone who believes, and that there is NO DIFFERENCE between any."
you are misunderstanding the context of the verses. God is saying that righteousness is revealed in them that believe and that through belief all of them are justified freely by his grace through redemption that came by Christ Jesus. The difference that is significant here is hebrew and greek. Paul is emphasing that all have sinned and none have sought him through their own will, but those who were called and ordained, they have faith in Jesus christ regardless of nationality or sin. The law will no longer condemn those who didn't seek God as they find redemption through Jesus christ, because No one could follow the law in all points and be sinless. Therefore he took our sin and became sin for us that through him we have redemption.
"Your view: God predestined a select group of people to become Christians.
My view: God allows anyone who chooses to become a Christian.
Both have the word “become.” Where i put the become is the issue. Do we become sons before or after we are born? We are predestined to son ship.
John 7:17
Joshua 24:15
Romans 10:9-10
Mark 8:34
Joshua 24:15 makes no seperation of God's will imputed in the choices, therefore they were already predetermined. and again, they had no knowledge of predestination at that time.
Mark 8:34 "Whosoever will come after me," jesus is addressing those who have the will to take up the cross, this crucial to understanding that God imputes the will. Jesus is recognizing those who would come after him and he instructs them to deny himself, take up their cross and follow him, which they will do as they the will.
John 7:17 falls in same category, "If any man will do his will, He SHALL know of the doctrine," Recognition of the will of God on those he is speaking to and again informing them as they will do it.
romans 10:9-10 This is demonstrating how the will works, not showing choice of man. and again shows instruction. "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness:" thats where the will is imputed in man The bible says "Blessed is the man whom the lord imputes no sin" Or, has no will to sin.
I have missed one of your questions. "You’ve said that believers will go to God irresistibly, regardless of if they hear the Word or not. So again, why are we told to preach to people who will go to God regardless and to people who CAN’T go to God?"
I invite voters to withdraw a point for conduct because i missed this one.
I never said believers will go to God irresistibly, I said Gods grace is irresistible in that it draws them, preaching is one of the ways grace drawls people. We are told to preach that they might hear, even though they may have already denied creation's proof of God. Just because people may not come to God through recognition of creation, they may come to God through the revealing of his word.
"I’m aware that he was speaking to believers. You haven’t explained why the “us” excludes everyone else.
Leader: We are strong, and we are brave. Let’s take the victory.
Follwors: Yeah, let’s do it!
Does the “we” here mean that ONLY these people are strong and brave? Obviously not."
You provided an example that doesn't specify the context of what Us is. where as ephesians does.
"I’m not saying that, I’m saying that God offers salvation to everyone and he saves those who accept it."
And who can accept it unless God drawls them?
"You just said that God has a purpose for everything and he doesn’t do stuff just for his pleasure."
isaiah 41:21-23. The purpose and pleasure are together, God does nothing without a purpose or his pleasure. therefore i didn't see fit to emphasis the need for purpose as i established that God does everything with a purpose. Thats like saying i offered you a suit but i didn't talk about the tie, the tie is included in the suit.
"If God is controlling us and everything we do, that's not serving."
Sure it is, God accomplishes what he wants through us. Again, he isn't controlling us, he is inserting and refraining will through the spirit.
"In the predestination view, the "elect" have had some spiritual difference in them since the beginning of time. However, here it says that the change occurred on the road."
No, the predestination view never establishes a difference in any person, only the fore ordaining of God before they were born. A person who is fore ordained is no better and has no more advantages than a person who is not. God revealed himself to Paul on the road and there was a recognition from him that he is Lord, the one he persecuted even against his own pricks of the conscience. Which God does to everyone, he reveals or manifests or sends a will that people will consider and obey and follow him.
"There is no "elect"."
1 peter 1:1-2 matthew 24:22-24
"I never said that we deserve life. God says he works for our good, which goes beyond just giving us life. And lots of people who aren’t murderers and are innocent are killed everyday."
he does work for our Good, he keeps us from many things including sin. Im saying we never deserve life and im justified in saying that because of scripture. As to why some die and some don't God has a purpose through it and for it.
"I’m aware of our nature. However, that doesn’t mean that we can ONLY do evil. Non-believers do good all the time. This is why Jesus died to give us grace, so that we can CHOOSE salvation."
"There is none that do Good." We can only do evil unless God changes and introduces us to his nature and his goodness. Grace is to help us become more like him as we live our life and it keeps us from sin. Grace is unmerited favor, God has unmerited favor on everyone.
Now we are getting somewhere! You see, i entirely missed those 4 links. Yep, completely missed them. I am sorry for doing so, i suppose im not cut out for reading alot of stuff. And because you were willing to show me that i messed up, I now will take better effort to not skip over links.
I said God is beyond physics. How can i define beyond wrick? many ways. But one that you won't ever understand is the spiritual application which is most relevant to defining God's nature. Spirit. The bible does not claim omni benevolence, i challenge anyone to show me otherwise. It only says that God is love, it never says he is nothing but love or that he is only capable of love. Love is something we associate and understand through first emotional concept and for christians spiritual understanding. The rock paradox does not show omnipotence as impossible, it only shows the foolishness of mankind trying to apply his weakness to God himself. If the rock and God are one, we would never know it as he defined in spiritual understanding. I have no need to justify physics with God as God expresses himself through physics and reality as we percieve it. When you look at earth, you not only see God's work, you see God expressed, aside from his spirit but revealed through intention and will.
Or, you could ask me why i voted in such manner. I feel i explained the sources well enough. and i believe your forfiture made more impact conduct wise than rational telling voters how to vote.
In order to award sources points, a voter must explicitly, and in the text of their RFD, perform the following tasks:
Explain, on balance, how each debater's sources impact the debate
Directly evaluate at least one source in particular cited in the debate and explain how it either bolstered or weakened the argument it was used to support
Must explain how and why one debater's use of sources overall was superior to the other's
I explained how your sources and con's impacted the debate, I evaluated multiple sources and told of how it affected the arguments and i explained why rational's sources were superior over yours.
If you wish for my vote to be taken down, it would most likely be because i didn't go over the arguments. Not because of sources.
You misunderstand the relationship between God and physics. God expresses himself in the universe as the law of physics, yet his authority and power is beyond it.
something intresting that people haven't considered in asking "can God create a rock too big." where would he get it from? If he fills all time and space he would have to find a rock outside of creation for it to be to big for him to lift, if however in this universe as we know it where God fills "the heavens and the heaven of heavens" then God would literally make a rock from himself and lift it. Therefore it is impossible for God to lift a rock bigger/heavier/denser than himself. or even create one for that matter, for God is infinite and would have to make an infinite rock, but the rock would stop becoming infinite before God did.
i have some thoughts on your showing of an omni God.
Omnipotence means all-powerful. Monotheistic theologians regard God as having supreme power. This means God can do what he wants. It means he is not subject to physical limitations like man is. Being omnipotent, God has power over wind, water, gravity, physics, etc. God's power is infinite, or limitless.
Omniscience means all-knowing. God is all all-knowing in the sense that he is aware of the past, present, and future. Nothing takes him by surprise. His knowledge is total. He knows all that there is to know and all that can be known.
Omnipresence means all-present. This term means that God is capable of being everywhere at the same time. It means his divine presence encompasses the whole of the universe. There is no location where he does not inhabit. This should not be confused with pantheism, which suggests that God is synonymous with the universe itself; instead, omnipresence indicates that God is distinct from the universe, but inhabits the entirety of it. He is everywhere at once.
therefore the definition and examples you gave of omni God is incorrect.
Dustandashes you don't understand what it means when the bible says "god cannot lie" It doesn't mean he cannot see and acknowledge what is false, it simply mean that when he says or declares something, it becomes what he says/declares therefore he cannot lie. how can i assert this? the book of ezekiel when god says “What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?” Right there, God is acknowledging something that is false. and immediately he says. "As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel."
also... wouldn't a square triangle be a pyramid? if that's the case God made plenty of those.
actually, the fastest way for a person to be an atheist is for God to not reveal to them the knowledge of himself. Which could be at any point in life. But it takes only a moment for that will or knowledge to slip from a persons mind. Or to never be considered in their will.
rational action hits on it slightly, the bible says that we are born "Without knowledge of God" and "There is none that seek God." Therefore just leaving them as is is the quickest way to let them believe there is no God, because it takes a drawling of God to persuade a person there is a God.
However, this is all assumed that atheism is applicable to God of the bible. There are many who believe in other Gods even after first reading the bible or even before knowing how to read.
furthermore, the gospel will be foolishness to those who are wise and a stumbling block to those who seek a sign or a miracle. 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
How does scripture say to persuade people? Through the cross. Paul was an educated man but he said “Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,”
and he says to timothy
20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.
So i suggest the gospel and testimony of Jesus to be greater power than lowering yourself to the knowledge of observation without faith.
how you persuade a person is not in your own power but through the revelation of God. If a person will not understand earthly things, they will much less understand heavenly things.
Here is the issue, you seem to think that unless we know what science is talking about that we cannot refute or argue it. However this is not true at all. I don't need to know what people say, i need to know what God says. Because people think multitudes of things that are completely wrong, if we are to believe in the inerrancy of scripture. Its not biased to believe the truth and debunk a lie. now if you wish to learn what scientists say in order to reason with them on the same knowledge? by all means, go ahead and do so, but if you are a christian then you know the ultimate truth isn't in what we think, but in what God decrees and decreed.
I liked jon stewarts views of fox, there are videos of him debating with fox members and showing the blatant misinformation or double standards they impose on others.
i could care less what you say you are. as to wether God created or God made them to adapt over the years is of no consequence to me. To God is the glory, and for you to assume i don't know scientific views is a bold assertion, I asked some questions and gave some examples and you say "Know science better" I disagreed with your assertion regarding owls, not through the process of how, but by the means it is done. I know God does all things, that is not disputable with me. I will allow science to speak regarding owls in this comment. https://www.owlresearchinstitute.org/adaptations
However, if you are asserting that owls took an untold number of years to develop these things (not regarding the adapatation of the enviroment) then you clearly misunderstood the genesis account of creation.
adaption vs evolution. Created vs adapted. There are bats that can see fine while others don't. there are owls that do hunt at night while others don't.
you sure you are not refering to absolute morality?
Moral absolutism is an ethical view that particular actions are intrinsically right or wrong. Stealing, for instance, might be considered to be always immoral, even if done for the well-being of others, and even if it does in the end promote such a good.
I disagree with your assertion regarding owls. Fish for example live in underwater caves in complete darkness and are blind. Bats live in darkness and cannot see well. Therefore there must be a form of guiding or intelligence in the design of animals in order for one to see in darkness and the other to not see in darkness.
If you are able, would you change the title to something like "Is predestination false?" that way your position as instigator and my postition as contender makes more sense in the debate.
Paul testified “If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.” Christianities man focus is after life according to the scriptures.
Ill go ahead and say i do not support a trinitarian view, as far as i know, the concept of predestination is what i agree with regarding calvinism. If we are going to debate their doctrines, then i will concede, i follow the bible specifically.
1 Timothy 2:4 says: "[God] will have all men to be saved, And to come unto the knowledge of the truth. "
How could this be true if God selects only certain people to go to heaven? In fact, Why would he create certain people in the first place if he wasn't going to allow them to enter heaven? It makes no sense. In fact, It would entail controlling their free will:
first off, i have no idea what translation you are using, ill use a NASB. "Who DESIRES all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
This right here shows 2 possible thoughts, either God is speaking specifically to those he has elected, or he is expressing a desire for all men to seek him and be saved, obviously stating his desire but not his fore determined will.
John 14:6: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. "
So one has to choose Jesus in order to enter heaven. However, In the Calvinist view, We've already been selected to go to heaven. Why do we have to choose if God's chosen us already?
Besides this, You're basically saying that God has condemned people to sin beyond their free will, But God hates sin more than anything else. So you're essentially saying that he created people to do something he hates and they can't control it.
No one can come to God except whom he has drawn. when he is talking, he is encouraging his disciples to not be troubled, They believe in God, so they believe also in him (Jesus Christ) Thomas asked him "How do we know the way?" Jesus tells him that he is the way and that no one can reach the father except through him. verse 7 actually helps with context. "If you had known Me, you would have known my Father also; from now on you know Him, and have see Him.
Yes, he fore ordained people that would sin so that he would show his wrath and fulfill his purpose and his glory through their destruction. Isaiah 46:10, just as he fore ordained people to salvation to show mercy. Romans 9:19-23
Don't be afraid to mix it up! you make rhymes within the sentence structure as well as at the end of it. Example
Tony chewed up the boy like pepperoni and started dissing on his ability
Reconstructing arguments in the events of mitigated liability
I'm not even sure what RFD stands for, i'm talking with bsh1 about it, you entered in biblical evidence that supports God forcing free will, yet it seems to be forgotten by you and dismissed by speedrace.
don't forget zechariah chapter 9 and 11! 9 is about jesus riding on the colt of a donkey and 11 is about his worth being 30 shekels of silver.
IF i may add a few things. the bible shows later on that it was an angel at sinai, not God or Jesus.
The name jesus in the hebrew is yushua, Which literally means "Jehovah/yahweh our salvation"
Emmanuel means God with us.
Referencing of shiloh reveals the aspect of PEACE. which jesus is later described as prince of peace. Which confirmed through the prophets.
christ english for the greek word for christo's which means "Anointed"
This debate is going to be troublesome for con, not only does he have deal with the scrolls and rabbi's but he also has to consider the apostles doctrines concerning christ.
Based on my voting, is it possible instead award the arguement to rational? Because he did give proof of God controlling free will, it was just swept under the rug so to speak.
Spirits when allowed to manifest are spotted quite often! angels, ghosts, demons. All manifestation of spirits. Also, don't dare to demean something spiritual with emotion, too many do that and fall into deception as it is.
I did define him. He is a spirit. Not a person.
Some of those questions you asked me did put me through the ringer, There is a lot i don't know about God or how he does things. But i do know that sometimes God would speak to those who believe in him (elect/fore ordained) and tell them to do something and they would either do it or not do it, regardless of the will. I don't have an answer for that, other than the will is more subtle in some cases than in others.
"You’re referring to Romans 3:11. The same chapter in verses 21-24 says “But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
So it’s saying that before the law, no one can choose God, but after and apart from it, righteousness is for everyone who believes, and that there is NO DIFFERENCE between any."
you are misunderstanding the context of the verses. God is saying that righteousness is revealed in them that believe and that through belief all of them are justified freely by his grace through redemption that came by Christ Jesus. The difference that is significant here is hebrew and greek. Paul is emphasing that all have sinned and none have sought him through their own will, but those who were called and ordained, they have faith in Jesus christ regardless of nationality or sin. The law will no longer condemn those who didn't seek God as they find redemption through Jesus christ, because No one could follow the law in all points and be sinless. Therefore he took our sin and became sin for us that through him we have redemption.
"Your view: God predestined a select group of people to become Christians.
My view: God allows anyone who chooses to become a Christian.
Both have the word “become.” Where i put the become is the issue. Do we become sons before or after we are born? We are predestined to son ship.
John 7:17
Joshua 24:15
Romans 10:9-10
Mark 8:34
Joshua 24:15 makes no seperation of God's will imputed in the choices, therefore they were already predetermined. and again, they had no knowledge of predestination at that time.
Mark 8:34 "Whosoever will come after me," jesus is addressing those who have the will to take up the cross, this crucial to understanding that God imputes the will. Jesus is recognizing those who would come after him and he instructs them to deny himself, take up their cross and follow him, which they will do as they the will.
John 7:17 falls in same category, "If any man will do his will, He SHALL know of the doctrine," Recognition of the will of God on those he is speaking to and again informing them as they will do it.
romans 10:9-10 This is demonstrating how the will works, not showing choice of man. and again shows instruction. "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness:" thats where the will is imputed in man The bible says "Blessed is the man whom the lord imputes no sin" Or, has no will to sin.
I have missed one of your questions. "You’ve said that believers will go to God irresistibly, regardless of if they hear the Word or not. So again, why are we told to preach to people who will go to God regardless and to people who CAN’T go to God?"
I invite voters to withdraw a point for conduct because i missed this one.
I never said believers will go to God irresistibly, I said Gods grace is irresistible in that it draws them, preaching is one of the ways grace drawls people. We are told to preach that they might hear, even though they may have already denied creation's proof of God. Just because people may not come to God through recognition of creation, they may come to God through the revealing of his word.
"I’m aware that he was speaking to believers. You haven’t explained why the “us” excludes everyone else.
Leader: We are strong, and we are brave. Let’s take the victory.
Follwors: Yeah, let’s do it!
Does the “we” here mean that ONLY these people are strong and brave? Obviously not."
You provided an example that doesn't specify the context of what Us is. where as ephesians does.
"I’m not saying that, I’m saying that God offers salvation to everyone and he saves those who accept it."
And who can accept it unless God drawls them?
"You just said that God has a purpose for everything and he doesn’t do stuff just for his pleasure."
isaiah 41:21-23. The purpose and pleasure are together, God does nothing without a purpose or his pleasure. therefore i didn't see fit to emphasis the need for purpose as i established that God does everything with a purpose. Thats like saying i offered you a suit but i didn't talk about the tie, the tie is included in the suit.
"If God is controlling us and everything we do, that's not serving."
Sure it is, God accomplishes what he wants through us. Again, he isn't controlling us, he is inserting and refraining will through the spirit.
"In the predestination view, the "elect" have had some spiritual difference in them since the beginning of time. However, here it says that the change occurred on the road."
No, the predestination view never establishes a difference in any person, only the fore ordaining of God before they were born. A person who is fore ordained is no better and has no more advantages than a person who is not. God revealed himself to Paul on the road and there was a recognition from him that he is Lord, the one he persecuted even against his own pricks of the conscience. Which God does to everyone, he reveals or manifests or sends a will that people will consider and obey and follow him.
"There is no "elect"."
1 peter 1:1-2 matthew 24:22-24
"I never said that we deserve life. God says he works for our good, which goes beyond just giving us life. And lots of people who aren’t murderers and are innocent are killed everyday."
he does work for our Good, he keeps us from many things including sin. Im saying we never deserve life and im justified in saying that because of scripture. As to why some die and some don't God has a purpose through it and for it.
"I’m aware of our nature. However, that doesn’t mean that we can ONLY do evil. Non-believers do good all the time. This is why Jesus died to give us grace, so that we can CHOOSE salvation."
"There is none that do Good." We can only do evil unless God changes and introduces us to his nature and his goodness. Grace is to help us become more like him as we live our life and it keeps us from sin. Grace is unmerited favor, God has unmerited favor on everyone.
I only claim understanding because he revealed himself to me.
Now we are getting somewhere! You see, i entirely missed those 4 links. Yep, completely missed them. I am sorry for doing so, i suppose im not cut out for reading alot of stuff. And because you were willing to show me that i messed up, I now will take better effort to not skip over links.
I said God is beyond physics. How can i define beyond wrick? many ways. But one that you won't ever understand is the spiritual application which is most relevant to defining God's nature. Spirit. The bible does not claim omni benevolence, i challenge anyone to show me otherwise. It only says that God is love, it never says he is nothing but love or that he is only capable of love. Love is something we associate and understand through first emotional concept and for christians spiritual understanding. The rock paradox does not show omnipotence as impossible, it only shows the foolishness of mankind trying to apply his weakness to God himself. If the rock and God are one, we would never know it as he defined in spiritual understanding. I have no need to justify physics with God as God expresses himself through physics and reality as we percieve it. When you look at earth, you not only see God's work, you see God expressed, aside from his spirit but revealed through intention and will.
Or, you could ask me why i voted in such manner. I feel i explained the sources well enough. and i believe your forfiture made more impact conduct wise than rational telling voters how to vote.
In order to award sources points, a voter must explicitly, and in the text of their RFD, perform the following tasks:
Explain, on balance, how each debater's sources impact the debate
Directly evaluate at least one source in particular cited in the debate and explain how it either bolstered or weakened the argument it was used to support
Must explain how and why one debater's use of sources overall was superior to the other's
I explained how your sources and con's impacted the debate, I evaluated multiple sources and told of how it affected the arguments and i explained why rational's sources were superior over yours.
If you wish for my vote to be taken down, it would most likely be because i didn't go over the arguments. Not because of sources.
You misunderstand the relationship between God and physics. God expresses himself in the universe as the law of physics, yet his authority and power is beyond it.
There is no place we can claim God as omni benevolence, that would mean he has no aspect of justice.
something intresting that people haven't considered in asking "can God create a rock too big." where would he get it from? If he fills all time and space he would have to find a rock outside of creation for it to be to big for him to lift, if however in this universe as we know it where God fills "the heavens and the heaven of heavens" then God would literally make a rock from himself and lift it. Therefore it is impossible for God to lift a rock bigger/heavier/denser than himself. or even create one for that matter, for God is infinite and would have to make an infinite rock, but the rock would stop becoming infinite before God did.
i have some thoughts on your showing of an omni God.
Omnipotence means all-powerful. Monotheistic theologians regard God as having supreme power. This means God can do what he wants. It means he is not subject to physical limitations like man is. Being omnipotent, God has power over wind, water, gravity, physics, etc. God's power is infinite, or limitless.
Omniscience means all-knowing. God is all all-knowing in the sense that he is aware of the past, present, and future. Nothing takes him by surprise. His knowledge is total. He knows all that there is to know and all that can be known.
Omnipresence means all-present. This term means that God is capable of being everywhere at the same time. It means his divine presence encompasses the whole of the universe. There is no location where he does not inhabit. This should not be confused with pantheism, which suggests that God is synonymous with the universe itself; instead, omnipresence indicates that God is distinct from the universe, but inhabits the entirety of it. He is everywhere at once.
therefore the definition and examples you gave of omni God is incorrect.
Dustandashes you don't understand what it means when the bible says "god cannot lie" It doesn't mean he cannot see and acknowledge what is false, it simply mean that when he says or declares something, it becomes what he says/declares therefore he cannot lie. how can i assert this? the book of ezekiel when god says “What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?” Right there, God is acknowledging something that is false. and immediately he says. "As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel."
also... wouldn't a square triangle be a pyramid? if that's the case God made plenty of those.
actually, the fastest way for a person to be an atheist is for God to not reveal to them the knowledge of himself. Which could be at any point in life. But it takes only a moment for that will or knowledge to slip from a persons mind. Or to never be considered in their will.
rational action hits on it slightly, the bible says that we are born "Without knowledge of God" and "There is none that seek God." Therefore just leaving them as is is the quickest way to let them believe there is no God, because it takes a drawling of God to persuade a person there is a God.
However, this is all assumed that atheism is applicable to God of the bible. There are many who believe in other Gods even after first reading the bible or even before knowing how to read.
furthermore, the gospel will be foolishness to those who are wise and a stumbling block to those who seek a sign or a miracle. 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
How does scripture say to persuade people? Through the cross. Paul was an educated man but he said “Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,”
and he says to timothy
20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.
So i suggest the gospel and testimony of Jesus to be greater power than lowering yourself to the knowledge of observation without faith.
how you persuade a person is not in your own power but through the revelation of God. If a person will not understand earthly things, they will much less understand heavenly things.
Here is the issue, you seem to think that unless we know what science is talking about that we cannot refute or argue it. However this is not true at all. I don't need to know what people say, i need to know what God says. Because people think multitudes of things that are completely wrong, if we are to believe in the inerrancy of scripture. Its not biased to believe the truth and debunk a lie. now if you wish to learn what scientists say in order to reason with them on the same knowledge? by all means, go ahead and do so, but if you are a christian then you know the ultimate truth isn't in what we think, but in what God decrees and decreed.
then you also believe the sin nature of man is what caused the first animal death and later on the animals to eat other animals?
Lets say that you do believe the bible. Do you believe that at one point no animal ate another animal and that they were all vegetarians?
I would never assert that they did, we are humans after all. to sin and err is our nature.
I liked jon stewarts views of fox, there are videos of him debating with fox members and showing the blatant misinformation or double standards they impose on others.
what do you mean?
i could care less what you say you are. as to wether God created or God made them to adapt over the years is of no consequence to me. To God is the glory, and for you to assume i don't know scientific views is a bold assertion, I asked some questions and gave some examples and you say "Know science better" I disagreed with your assertion regarding owls, not through the process of how, but by the means it is done. I know God does all things, that is not disputable with me. I will allow science to speak regarding owls in this comment. https://www.owlresearchinstitute.org/adaptations
However, if you are asserting that owls took an untold number of years to develop these things (not regarding the adapatation of the enviroment) then you clearly misunderstood the genesis account of creation.
adaption vs evolution. Created vs adapted. There are bats that can see fine while others don't. there are owls that do hunt at night while others don't.
you sure you are not refering to absolute morality?
Moral absolutism is an ethical view that particular actions are intrinsically right or wrong. Stealing, for instance, might be considered to be always immoral, even if done for the well-being of others, and even if it does in the end promote such a good.
id speculate the universe its self is both an immovable object (in its entirety) and an unstoppable force.
I disagree with your assertion regarding owls. Fish for example live in underwater caves in complete darkness and are blind. Bats live in darkness and cannot see well. Therefore there must be a form of guiding or intelligence in the design of animals in order for one to see in darkness and the other to not see in darkness.
just sensationalism and assertion similar to fox news
I forgot to award conduct to instigator.
i copy and paste what the person says then hit quotes button
The only rules that could apply to it are the ones it applies to its self through decree.
Is it possible to change the title to better suit the context of this debate?
If you are able, would you change the title to something like "Is predestination false?" that way your position as instigator and my postition as contender makes more sense in the debate.
When you " " hit the quote button of the selected sentence. I copy and paste the sentence then hit quotes button.
Ill leave round 5 blank on my side, unless there are questions you want me to address.
Paul testified “If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.” Christianities man focus is after life according to the scriptures.
No, because gravity is understood through observation.
a very good scripture is isaiah 41:21-23 God challenges Gods to consider the former things and declare their outcome.
genesis 50:18-20 i forgot the 50 on that one. - spelling grammar point.
Ill go ahead and say i do not support a trinitarian view, as far as i know, the concept of predestination is what i agree with regarding calvinism. If we are going to debate their doctrines, then i will concede, i follow the bible specifically.
1 Timothy 2:4 says: "[God] will have all men to be saved, And to come unto the knowledge of the truth. "
How could this be true if God selects only certain people to go to heaven? In fact, Why would he create certain people in the first place if he wasn't going to allow them to enter heaven? It makes no sense. In fact, It would entail controlling their free will:
first off, i have no idea what translation you are using, ill use a NASB. "Who DESIRES all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
This right here shows 2 possible thoughts, either God is speaking specifically to those he has elected, or he is expressing a desire for all men to seek him and be saved, obviously stating his desire but not his fore determined will.
John 14:6: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. "
So one has to choose Jesus in order to enter heaven. However, In the Calvinist view, We've already been selected to go to heaven. Why do we have to choose if God's chosen us already?
Besides this, You're basically saying that God has condemned people to sin beyond their free will, But God hates sin more than anything else. So you're essentially saying that he created people to do something he hates and they can't control it.
No one can come to God except whom he has drawn. when he is talking, he is encouraging his disciples to not be troubled, They believe in God, so they believe also in him (Jesus Christ) Thomas asked him "How do we know the way?" Jesus tells him that he is the way and that no one can reach the father except through him. verse 7 actually helps with context. "If you had known Me, you would have known my Father also; from now on you know Him, and have see Him.
Yes, he fore ordained people that would sin so that he would show his wrath and fulfill his purpose and his glory through their destruction. Isaiah 46:10, just as he fore ordained people to salvation to show mercy. Romans 9:19-23
You should have debated me on this issue. Rational has no interest in predestination nor does he believe in it.