Mps1213

I’ll be honest you’re just as much of a poster child for the dunning Kruger effect. You’re the one who has 0 back ground in this are, you’re the one who can’t find any way to change your mind, you’re the one who is making claims that sent be proven, you’re the one that doesn’t know how to interpret evidence, you’re the one who probably didn’t even know what an LD50 is before I explained it to you, you’re the one who says anyone who thinks George Floyd was likely killed by the officer is brain washed, youre the one disagreeing with gold standards in toxicity sciences with drugs, you’re the one disagreeing with toxicology 101 with post mortem blood concentrations, you’re the one who thinks writing in better prose makes the argument more true, you’re the one being a hypocrite and not allowing others to make appeals to authority while you attempted to do it for yourself, you’re the on who has no education background In this trying to disagree with people who have studied it for years and years of their life. 

You’re the guy who thinks he’s smarter than everyone because he knows some fancy debate phrases. You have shown it time and time again that you’re more interested in reinforcing your political beliefs than looking at this scientifically, which is why I asked you what it would take to change your mind and you had no answer. Also, i don’t car enough about this to write it as if I’m writing a paper for a journal a thesis, it’s a forum on a website no one will read. That doesn’t mean you’re right because you’re taking it more seriously and bring more careful with your wording.

Also do you realize how many times the DEA, addiction recover websites, etc have been straight up wrong about pharmacology? Like all of the drugs they say have no medical benefit that do? Or all of the times they’ve made claims about drugs being immensely toxic and dangerous while the drugs are being used in hospitals? They are not pharmacologists either, I know people in the DEA and FBI, I know people who work in addiction rehabilitation as well. Most of them are social science majors, hell I know someone in drug enforcement who has an art major. The people who work with addiction are usually social workers with psychology degrees. They almost never know anything drugs, they certainly won’t know the mechanisms of drugs, the half life of drugs, the duration of activity, the receptor affinity, the signaling biases, the toxicity patterns, etc. they’re not experts, so quoting their 2mg lethal dose stuff and extrapolating it to everyone on earth is simply foolish. Especially when the gold standard of lethal dose determination, done by actual pharmacologists, show a completely different measurement and way of determining things. 

Usually when someone starts abusing the dunning-Kruger effect argument they’re doing it themselves. Because it’s requiring you to say someone is over estimating their own knowledge and experience, which would assume that you think you know more than the person you are saying it to. Which is why you don’t argue the man; you argue the matter. Instead of lazily just typing bs debate phraseology you actually try and combat the things they are saying with actual evidence that holds up to scrutiny. Nothing you have said has convinced me that my evidence needs to be re examined. 

You can say anything you’d like to say. You are a hypocrite, as you jump down my throat for saying people who have more credibility than you should be taken more seriously than you, then type a paragraph as to why your credibility is important for this topic, even though it had literally nothing to do with it. 

I’m sorry that you consider thoughts and articulation as insecurity. I’m also sorry you feel the need to unnecessarily force a weird vocabulary to make yourself feel smarter. Have a good night man. 

Using your own logic what you just said = me winning the debate. I’m glad you’re such an unscientific person, with no science background trying to talk about deeply scientific things. At least I’m a chemistry and geoscience major that actually works in the field of environmental science, while my line of work isn’t directly related to this, my education and endless hours of studying pharmacology is. I have devoted more time to this topic than you would ever consider doing. So have the many scientists who disagree with you, that you hold no value towards. 

I’m also not concerned about my prose on this website, if it was for a paper I’d be more careful. 

Also you yelling and typing in bold about me being on a debate website with no credibility is comical considering you’re in the exact same boat. 

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LOL! Yeah, the CDC, DEA, et al don't know nutt'in compared to Mps1213...some anonymous pseudo know-it-all user hiding behind a sock puppet account in an online forum with absolutely ZERO FUCKING CREDIBILITY!!! And you expect everyone to take YOUR word over those credible agencies? WOW!” If you would read what I said you would see I didn’t say that at all. I said that I trust the gold standard for determining lethal dosages for drug use, and this mechanistic studies for determining said factors 

And no you have not won this debate, this is how I know you’re not scientifically minded, you were an MP for Christ sakes and you worked in social sciences, that doesn’t impress me in terms of arguing about science. Just because you were a police officer for the military, doesn’t mean you’re an expert in pharmacology and toxicology. The reason I know you’re not thinking about this objectively is because you couldn’t give me anything that would change your mind. When that is the case you’re dealing with an ideology, not objective reasoning. 

Also you simplifying it to 2+2=4 is honestly just insane. Pharmacology and lethal doses are not that simple at all. It changes dramatically, with weight, tolerance, pre existing conditions, allergies, other medications or substances in the system, and a whole swath of other stuff. Which is why using the 2mg is a lethal dose, is absurd to extrapolate that to every user and make it a corner stone of your case. That is what I’m saying you’re misinterpreting. 

Weren’t you the guy who seemed allergic to the idea of using credentials and authority as weight for an argument like a day ago? Now here you are throwing you credentials, that have absolutely 0 correlation to pharmacology and toxicology down my throat. 

The fact you say there aren’t many unanswerable questions is also absurd, and just more proof you will never be convinced by anything even if god (don’t care if you believe or don’t believe) came down and told you  he didn’t die from fentanyl your answer would be “wow I guess the brain washing from the left goes even higher than I thought” 

I don’t know what the fuck you think statutory law, being a paralegal, etc has to do with toxicology and pharmacology. Sure you can read the literature the DEA puts out, but you are not applying it correctly. They didn’t publish that 2mg can be lethal so it can be extrapolated to everyone on earth, meaning that doesn’t mean anyone who takes more than more 2mg will die immediately with no question. It’s basically just saying “look, be careful with drug very small doses can kill people” that’s it. I have shown you peer reviewed studies, done by pharmacologists, about how to determine the LD50 for substances, and why the LD50 measurement is so important when talking about drug overdoses. I have also shown you why post mortem concentration measurements should be approached skeptically. 

I’ve been a sick to you, you’ve been a dick to me, that doesn’t bother me. I understand why you’d Still be aggressive. However, what does bother me is your inability to concede that drugs may not have been the main cause of his death or that there were any other possible variables that led to his death. It also bothers me you can’t come up with something that’ll make you change your mind. In science your hypothesis has to be able to be disproven, usually you have to find something that would disprove it in your eyes, so you can specifically search that thing out, test it, and see if your theory still holds. You have not done that, and seem to refuse to do it. Which is why I keep saying you are trying to bend science to your political beliefs, because you don’t understand it in the way scientists (most of whom disagree with you massively) do. 

If you were talking to me about being an MP, or paralegal, or any of that stuff, I would out more weight in your opinion, even if I disagreed with you. But all of those credentials 1: don’t mean you’re an expert on the scientific aspects of this topic, 2: doesn’t mean you’re right. You yourself said that yesterday about Dr. Carl Hart’s article about the fentanyl in Floyd’s system that I sent you. Even though, you know, he’s a chairman on the national institute of health, has been given hundreds of millions of dollars in grants to conduct drug studies on humans and animals, and is a professor In pharmacology and psychology. But you’re paralegal experience sure does over write that! That’s what I’m saying man I don’t feel like you’re truly considering why people may disagree with you, instead you’re just calling them sheep and brain washed, and that is just insulting to your own intelligence. 

Again you can use all of these fancy debate terms, there is a reason scientists, who are completely separate and independent of George Floyd or anything related to him have come to a different conclusion than yourself. It has nothing to do with me appealing to authority, I just want you to consider why people, who have studied this stuff most of their life, including myself, disagree with you. Is it because we are brainwashed by the left? Is it because we are sheep? Or is it because we have a more comprehensive understanding of this topic and believe the evidence points in a different direction than you do, with your limited knowledge in the topic. 

Again this isn’t an appeal to the argument of authority, if you were telling me stuff about politics or some topic you have devoted lots of time to studying, I would be more inclined to believe you, or put more weight to your opinions than my own. Because I don’t know much about politics and don’t care to. I believe you are simplifying the way this science works, and are implementing confirmation bias to support your political beliefs. That doesn’t mean I am completely right or that you are completely wrong. It is simply that we don’t agree on what the evidence is showing, or how it should be interpreted.

If I had to guess the methamphetamine is what was active in his system, I don’t see any behavior indicative of a large dose of opioids. Fentanyl is much more potent than methamphetamine and more powerful in terms of its affinity to the receptors it activates, so with a dose that large (if the dose was even that large) the opioid effects would have over powered the amphetamine effects. I didn’t see any evidence of that being the case, I saw a very stimulated, scared and panicked person. All of those are effects of amphetamine stimulants. Thag absolutely would’ve played a part in his death, if it was active. My argument is that it wasn’t the cause of his death. Because he wasn’t showing symptoms of him dying before the officer arrived, in my opinion. I saw the effects of being scared and panicking, which causes trouble breathing and shaking, etc. so I don’t think I disagree with you in that, if either drug was active, it played a part in his death. My issue comes from blaming his death solely on that, especially when the last variable to enter the equation was the officer kneeling on his neck. 

I don’t want to have a heated and condescending debate. I’m simply too tired for it. I’m trying to clarify my point and stance on this. There are many unanswerable questions, that it is hard to pin point any one cause of his death, and that is what you are doing that I disagree with. The drugs could have certainly played a role if they were active, so did Covid, did he have pre existing heart conditions? We’re the negative effects of the stimulant exacerbated by the panic he was feeling from being pinned down for nine minutes? Probably. 

I appreciate your research into the topic, I simply think you are over simplifying the science and misinterpreting the data. 

Mate, I’m not saying they’re wrong, I’m saying your interpretation of them is wrong. Also I would trust mechanistic studies that show exactly how things work and why an LD50 is established over the DEA and addiction recovery websites. 

I’m not going to argue with your points this time, I’m going to ask you a question, depending on how you answer it, will decide whether or not I go on to tackle your points. Science isn’t as simple as you are making it to be, which is coming with people who bend science around their political orientation. 

What would it take for you to change your mind on this topic? Is there any amount of evidence or logical arguments, that could make you re consider your position? 

“Rats =/= Human Beings, much less George Floyd.” You’re correct, which is why there is a conversion factor. 

LD 50 measurements: 

Your information surrounding the lethal dose of fentanyl is simply false. As you have said just because someone with a PhD says a lie doesn’t make it not a lie. Of course a lethal dose can be low, I’ve already explained to you how that can occur, but you are still not using the proper measurements of lethal dosages for drugs. 

Sure I can’t prove he had a tolerance to fentanyl, but Peope have said he liked the drug. Regardless, you can’t prove fentanyl was active in his system, or if fentanyl and methamphetamine were active in his system at the same time. That’s what you’re entire cases relies on and you can’t prove it. I can prove that the lethal dose for someone his size is higher than 2mg and I have proven it. I have also proven that post mortem drug concentrations don’t show you anything valuable, you refuse to engage with that fact. 

Word salad doesn’t win arguments. I have shown you exactly why your measurements for lethal dosages are inaccurate and useless in this case. The gold standard for lethal dose measurements is the LD50 not saying “this is a lethal dose” because it varies widely due to weight and tolerance you can’t claim one lethal dose. You were literally arguing with me, when I was making a joke to another user and called it irrelevant, yeah dumb ass it was because I wasn’t talking to you, you dork. 

You said my lethal dose measurements were subjective… that is completely false it is based off of how lethal doses are ascertained and calculated, you can’t comprehend the most basic aspect of pharmacology, i can’t help you there. 

Also i feel like you think I’m saying the knee was the only aspect in his death, sure drugs could’ve been an aspect, if you can prove they were active in his system, sure Covid was a factor, it wasn’t just the knee. But you are acting like the knee had nothing to do with it, that is where we disagree. I also disagree with the way you talk about lethal dosages. I also have a problem with you refusing to engage with the issues post mortem concentration measurements, because it doesn’t support your argument. 

You say I’m projecting when I say you have no knowledge, but you are showing me that you don’t. You can use all of the fancy vocabulary you’d like, you’re still wrong. 

As much as i support what you’re claiming you’re still wrong about the Ng comparison you made. That measurements was ng/ml not just the amount of ng of a drug found in his system. That’s a different measurement. 

But the claim he made about the 2mg lethal dose is also wrong. Because lethal doses aren’t measured that way. They’re measured in the way of mg/kg meaning the lethal dose for the average person will increase as their weight increases. So he is also completely wrong about whatever he is trying to say. And is a perfect example of a person who is uneducated about pharmacology and toxicity trying to make claims. 

You have yet to provide a sliver of evidence that methamphetamine and fentanyl were active at the same time, at the time of his arrest. I’ve already spelled out it is very common to encounter both in someone’s system even if they aren’t taking it at the same time. 

I also showed you peer reviewed studies, by people who had nothing to do with the autopsy, about how looking at blood concentrations after death is useless. You have yet to respond to a single point I made, all you’ve done is roll your eyes. Just admit you don’t know enough about pharmacology and toxicology to be among claims about it. What is your evidence those two drugs were active in his system at the same time? You haven’t answered because there is none, you can’t prove it at all. I also showed you other reasons he would be having a hard time breathing, you didn’t respond, why is it so certain that we can rule out all other variables of this arrest simply because he had drugs in his system? It’s because you think drugs like fentanyl and meth only cause problems. You also are making an assumption that just because they were in his system, means they were taken together which you can’t prove, and have no evidence for. You also don’t know anything about how looking at drugs in the system Post Mortem is useless and has no purpose, you also haven’t responded to that. Don’t bring hot scientific topics when you don’t know anything about them simply because you think the claims you are making is beneficial to your political beliefs. That is how corruption of evidence begins. That is what you have done since the moment we started our conversation. Misconstrued evidence, either out of ignorance or intentionally, and made unfounded claims because you think it makes your political orientation stronger. 

I’m not speaking of weird sexual tendencies, you do you. 

However over 9 minutes is too long. Especially if the person has Covid. 

There are things called blood chokes: these chokes can put someone to sleep, or kill the person if they are held long enough. They have no effect in breathing at all. If someone were to die from this they would not have any “life threatening injuries” they would die from neck compression, as George Floyd did. 

Go ahead and give this article a read, maybe your eyes will stop rolling long enough to learn something. 

Just because you rolled your eyes doesn’t mean you are correct man. Especially on the pharmacology and toxicology front. You’re going to have a very hard time combatting anything I said when it comes to that. 

Hey didn’t mean to tag you in that, Lancelot. That was for TWS

Ok you have a basic misunderstanding of what the coroner is saying when they say no life threatening injuries. They are basically saying, he didn’t have a broken neck, didn’t have a collapsed wind pipe, etc. that doesn’t mean that having your air way inhibited, can’t kill you without causing physical injury. That’s not how it works. Have you ever seen someone get choked unconscious in MMA? If they would’ve held onto that choke, that person would’ve died, and they wouldn’t have had any life threatening injuries. They just would have been chocked to death. Which is why your idea that the original autopsy refutes itself is incorrect. 

Also “The lethal dose of fentanyl is 2mg (but can be less)” this is a perfect example of you not knowing anything about drugs man. I’m going to break this down very simply for you. The LD50 for fentanyl in rats by route of IV is a stunning 2.91mg/kg. Notice the per kilogram. It is not as simple as taking that weight and multiplying it by your body weight in kg. There is a conversion that must be done to account for different metabolic rates and the surface area of the organism. The conversion factor for rats is to divide this number by 6.2. After the conversion is done the human LD50 rests at .47mg/kg. George Floyd weighed 220 pounds. That is 99.7 Kg. 

.47x99.7 is 46.8mg. That would be the average lethal dose for someone his size. LD50 means lethal dose for 50% of test subjects, and is the standard for determining lethal doses for drugs. There are other wways, but there is a reason all safety data sheets published by drug and pharmaceutical companies have to include the LD50, because it is the most reliable. Now that LD50 will increase as the person becomes more tolerant to the drug and he was reported to have used it semi regularly. So he would’ve had a tolerance. 

Also the amount of drugs in someone blood will increase upon their death, because they likely lost blood during death, and there is no blood circulating to clean out the substance from the system. This is a well recorded and commented thing in toxicology. 

“Post-mortem changes render the assumptions of clinical pharmacology largely invalid, and make the interpretation of concentrations measured in post-mortem samples difficult or impossible. ”

That isn’t something you’re just allowed to ignore, like you did every single time I brought it up when we were arguing in the comment section of another debate. 

Also you have absolutely 0 evidence fentanyl and methamphetamine were even active in his system at the time of arrest. Drugs stay in your blood for hours, if not days. Fentanyl is only active for about 30 minutes. Do you really believe it is impossible he was claiming that he was having trouble breathing because he was being pulled over, likely panicking, and had Covid? Have you never experienced panic before? It’s hard to breathe, add Covid to that equation, it’s very hard to breathe. He knew he broke the law and was probably going to get arrested and began to have a panic attack, like anyone else would. 

I don’t understand why you feel the need to bring politics into this discussion. Was every single person on that jury brainwashed or planted there by the left? How likely is that? I don’t care what your Political orientation is, I have no political opinions. So let’s keep this to the pharmacology and science of the situation if you don’t mind. 

George Floyd had about 92 pounds of pressure on his neck. That may not kill someone if they are healthy, meaning don’t have COVID and aren’t panicking. 

You are correct that combing amphetamine stimulants and Opioids is a deadly mixture. However I have asked you for this many times, you have yet to present it. What is your evidence that those two drugs were both active in his system at the time of arrest? You realize you can take meth of Tuesday, and fentanyl on Wednesday and not face those deadly effects of mixing them correct? You can even take them both on the same day. Many people are prescribed aderall which is methamphetamine minus one carbon atom, while they’re also prescribed opioids, they just have to be taken about 6 hours apart. How do you know he didn’t do that? 

You make a lot of claims with no evidence to support them. You say some random “lethal dose” as if that applies to everyone which is patently false. And ignore basic toxicology and pharmacological science. You’ve ignored both of those points many times, but are condescending and annoying about me claiming I know more than you on those two topics, when I clearly do. In science either I am right, you are right, or we are both wrong. All of the evidence supports my claim that drugs did not kill George Floyd, you have no evidence to support your claim that they did. The evidence you cite isn’t even anywhere near factually accurate. Especially your lethal dose nonsense. The only time you get a lethal dose that low with fentanyl, is either a child took it, or someone had an allergic reaction to it, or it was mixed with other CBS depressants like benzodiazepines, alcohol, antihistamines, or other opioids. You have presented 0 evidence to support your claim. 

Be condescending all you’d like, you simply don’t know what you’re talking about when it comes to toxicology and drugs, and it’s abundantly clear after doing three minutes of google searching. Search “blood concentration of drugs increase After death” look up “fentanyl LD50” and do the necessary conversions to get an accurate measurement for humans. Look up “LD50 increases with tolerance” that’s all you have to do,  to realize how incredibly wrong you are about the pharmacological and toxicological aspects of this debate. Takes three minutes man. 

Go ahead and start a debate, invite me to it, on this specific topic. I won’t be aggressive or mean or condescending in the debate, unless you say something stupid lol. I’m more aggressive in the comments and forums. Start a debate with me on this topic, I’d be glad to debate it with you. 

Also You’re going to have to come up with more evidence than the deadly effects of fentanyl, because no one will ever disagree that fentanyl can be deadly. That doesn’t mean it’s always deadly though, that’s what people seem to have a hard time understanding. Just because George Floyd had fentanyl in his system doesn’t mean he died from it. However, the fact he someone kneeling on his neck for over 9 minutes, while having Covid, is s little more convincing. You can’t even prove fentanyl was active in his system at the time of arrest. 

“He said he would debate you on this topic but he’d only accept if you were brave enough to post a new, separate thread challenging him. 

Lancelot has not messaged me and I have not said any of that lol. Both of y’all are idiots. I would like it if you started a new thread though. 

Rational madman doesn’t deserve to be the president of this site after witnessing him childish and just generally sad behavior during our debate. No one who calls for debaters to be banned or reports every vote that goes against him deserves to be the president of a website dedicated to civil and thoughtful debate. Wylted doesn’t have a history of doing that as far as I’ve seen, Rational mad man has done it recently. He doesn’t deserve this presidency even a little bit. I’m sure he will report this comment.