To Clausewitzian,
I understand that perhaps my viewpoint on proportionality is flawed. However, if you’ve been able to provide these arguments from the beginning, surely it might’ve been more prudent to use those, rather than emphasising how mind-blown you are that a student would dare to enter a debate on a topic about which you know more about than them, however, you have done very little to rebut any of my comments about the IDF’s war crimes. I never intended to suggest that Hamas was anywhere but in the wrong in this war, that is not my argument. My argument is that the methods that the IDF has used in order to attack and kill Hamas officials are flawed and cause too much unnecessary collateral damage. An example: one of the excuses the IDF gave for the murder of the Red Crescent aid workers was that some of them were Hamas officials. Remind me, how were they to know this? To attack the Red Crescenft ambulances would be to knowingly risk committing a war crime, as well as the fact that there was very little evidence to suggest that the Hamas terrorist that was apparently killed was even present. It’s true that there is no necessity to warn civilians about an incoming strike, but the argument saying “Oh, they didn’t have to do this at all, they could’ve just given no warning” is severely flawed, as the same logic applies to “It could’ve been worse than assault, I could’ve killed them if I wanted to”. The attempt to make the IDF sound merciful does not hold much water. I understand that I may not know as much about this war as you, and I could likely learn something in a debate with you, however your opening of ad hominem attacks towards me (saying my “rhetoric is clearly lacking”, and that I “should concede the debate immediately”).
In all honesty, it’s true that my comparison between Israel and Nazi Germany is incorrect and poor, and I apologise, however, it’s also unfair to suggest that Israel is a victim here. Israel is not defending itself. This war is unnecessary, there was another way. Violence only breeds more violence. Am I wrong in saying that in the killings, deserved or not, of Palestinian civilians, will breed more Hamas terrorists, as the children of the killed seek revenge against Israel? It can be compared to when Hercules fought the Hydra. With every head you cut off, two more grow in its place. Israel could take the example of US after WW2, by helping Palestine rebuild. Time will tell.
To Wylted,
It is true that he’s new too, but that doesn’t give him the right to insult others who are just trying to enjoy a debate. I’ve seen on his profile, all of his comments are attacking one of the debaters, calling them a parody, trying to erode their confidence, that’s all of the content in his comments summed up. He implies he knows far more about the war in Israel than me, yet provides no evidence of it, just the apparent fact. He appears to be here to comment unhelpful things (as you said, giving ammo to one side in a debate is considered bad), and even after you told him, he made no effort to even tone it down, as he just continued with his biased critique of me. I’m really looking forward to seeing your side of the argument, I’m just hoping I can see it without the constant questioning and toning down of my confidence done by some civil servant in Austria who thinks a list of books earns him respect (It is a decent list, and those books are great, but actions speak louder than words (defining actions in this scenario as something he chooses to say in a particular moment, while words are things like his predetermined profile description)). Also, how are you getting on with the counter?
You say proportionality isn’t a numbers game. What exactly is it then? I agree that the side inflicting more casualties isn’t necessarily fighting out of proportion. However, if this logic is being used against me here in this way, then I assume that Palestine’s population is greater than Israel’s. Oh wait, that’s bullshit. Israel has a population of 9.4 million people, while Palestine has a population of 5.5 million. Let’s change it to a percentages game. Based off of the figures I gave of casualties and populations, Israel has lost 0.01% of its population since the war began. However, Palestine has lost nearly 1% (of a population that was smaller to begin with). That’s like the Nazis killing 10 jews for the murder of one Nazi. Sound proportional now?
While leaflets might be being dropped, it’s likely that these are too late to help much, as the inhabitants of the Ahli Arab hospital were warned only minutes before the attack happened. You tell me if that’s enough to clear out a full hospital with relatively few staff.
In addition, I don’t appreciate your tone. You can see that this is my first debate on this website, I was hoping that I’d be able to engage in at least somewhat civilised debate with other people. I understand that this is a very much emotionally charged topic, especially for you, Clauseswitzian, as your profile suggests. However, how exactly do I know so little about this war? I gave my sources, I gave accurate statistics (as far as I could tell) and yet somehow I know nothing! Please educate me on what I’m missing out on, because right now you sound like some arrogant twat. I’ll be more than willing to learn more about this war. Also, I’m not going to forfeit this debate. Even if I lose, I might learn something.
Funny how someone with a chicken jockey pfp thinks they have ground to stand on to call me a “brain-dead tiktok zoomer”. I’m sorry if I prefer the UN and Amnesty International, amongst other sources to other media sources, although in all fairness I can call you out for the same things, what are your sources, how are they more credible than the UN? I’m facing this with an open mind, apologies if I sound like I’m challenging your inflated ego, because you see all of the ‘narratives’ right? I acknowledge I probably don’t know everything about this war but I doubt it would be a ridiculous claim to suggest that perhaps you don’t either? I’m not ‘easily persuaded’ I supported Israel until I looked more closely into what was happening, and even then Hamas is still in the wrong as well. Of course, I will be happy to reconsider my stance if you give me sufficient reason to, but calling me a “literal brain-dead Tik tok zoomer” isn’t a good start.
Imma forfeit, I have exams I can’t be distracted for. I’ll return in about a month and a half.
To Clausewitzian,
I understand that perhaps my viewpoint on proportionality is flawed. However, if you’ve been able to provide these arguments from the beginning, surely it might’ve been more prudent to use those, rather than emphasising how mind-blown you are that a student would dare to enter a debate on a topic about which you know more about than them, however, you have done very little to rebut any of my comments about the IDF’s war crimes. I never intended to suggest that Hamas was anywhere but in the wrong in this war, that is not my argument. My argument is that the methods that the IDF has used in order to attack and kill Hamas officials are flawed and cause too much unnecessary collateral damage. An example: one of the excuses the IDF gave for the murder of the Red Crescent aid workers was that some of them were Hamas officials. Remind me, how were they to know this? To attack the Red Crescenft ambulances would be to knowingly risk committing a war crime, as well as the fact that there was very little evidence to suggest that the Hamas terrorist that was apparently killed was even present. It’s true that there is no necessity to warn civilians about an incoming strike, but the argument saying “Oh, they didn’t have to do this at all, they could’ve just given no warning” is severely flawed, as the same logic applies to “It could’ve been worse than assault, I could’ve killed them if I wanted to”. The attempt to make the IDF sound merciful does not hold much water. I understand that I may not know as much about this war as you, and I could likely learn something in a debate with you, however your opening of ad hominem attacks towards me (saying my “rhetoric is clearly lacking”, and that I “should concede the debate immediately”).
In all honesty, it’s true that my comparison between Israel and Nazi Germany is incorrect and poor, and I apologise, however, it’s also unfair to suggest that Israel is a victim here. Israel is not defending itself. This war is unnecessary, there was another way. Violence only breeds more violence. Am I wrong in saying that in the killings, deserved or not, of Palestinian civilians, will breed more Hamas terrorists, as the children of the killed seek revenge against Israel? It can be compared to when Hercules fought the Hydra. With every head you cut off, two more grow in its place. Israel could take the example of US after WW2, by helping Palestine rebuild. Time will tell.
To Wylted,
It is true that he’s new too, but that doesn’t give him the right to insult others who are just trying to enjoy a debate. I’ve seen on his profile, all of his comments are attacking one of the debaters, calling them a parody, trying to erode their confidence, that’s all of the content in his comments summed up. He implies he knows far more about the war in Israel than me, yet provides no evidence of it, just the apparent fact. He appears to be here to comment unhelpful things (as you said, giving ammo to one side in a debate is considered bad), and even after you told him, he made no effort to even tone it down, as he just continued with his biased critique of me. I’m really looking forward to seeing your side of the argument, I’m just hoping I can see it without the constant questioning and toning down of my confidence done by some civil servant in Austria who thinks a list of books earns him respect (It is a decent list, and those books are great, but actions speak louder than words (defining actions in this scenario as something he chooses to say in a particular moment, while words are things like his predetermined profile description)). Also, how are you getting on with the counter?
To Clausewitzian
You say proportionality isn’t a numbers game. What exactly is it then? I agree that the side inflicting more casualties isn’t necessarily fighting out of proportion. However, if this logic is being used against me here in this way, then I assume that Palestine’s population is greater than Israel’s. Oh wait, that’s bullshit. Israel has a population of 9.4 million people, while Palestine has a population of 5.5 million. Let’s change it to a percentages game. Based off of the figures I gave of casualties and populations, Israel has lost 0.01% of its population since the war began. However, Palestine has lost nearly 1% (of a population that was smaller to begin with). That’s like the Nazis killing 10 jews for the murder of one Nazi. Sound proportional now?
While leaflets might be being dropped, it’s likely that these are too late to help much, as the inhabitants of the Ahli Arab hospital were warned only minutes before the attack happened. You tell me if that’s enough to clear out a full hospital with relatively few staff.
In addition, I don’t appreciate your tone. You can see that this is my first debate on this website, I was hoping that I’d be able to engage in at least somewhat civilised debate with other people. I understand that this is a very much emotionally charged topic, especially for you, Clauseswitzian, as your profile suggests. However, how exactly do I know so little about this war? I gave my sources, I gave accurate statistics (as far as I could tell) and yet somehow I know nothing! Please educate me on what I’m missing out on, because right now you sound like some arrogant twat. I’ll be more than willing to learn more about this war. Also, I’m not going to forfeit this debate. Even if I lose, I might learn something.
Funny how someone with a chicken jockey pfp thinks they have ground to stand on to call me a “brain-dead tiktok zoomer”. I’m sorry if I prefer the UN and Amnesty International, amongst other sources to other media sources, although in all fairness I can call you out for the same things, what are your sources, how are they more credible than the UN? I’m facing this with an open mind, apologies if I sound like I’m challenging your inflated ego, because you see all of the ‘narratives’ right? I acknowledge I probably don’t know everything about this war but I doubt it would be a ridiculous claim to suggest that perhaps you don’t either? I’m not ‘easily persuaded’ I supported Israel until I looked more closely into what was happening, and even then Hamas is still in the wrong as well. Of course, I will be happy to reconsider my stance if you give me sufficient reason to, but calling me a “literal brain-dead Tik tok zoomer” isn’t a good start.