I have specified that all the arguments I was making applied to professional sports for good reason. While the majority of my information and arguments relate to professional sports, as that's the realm that this issue is usually discussed in, I believe there are very good arguments that suggest there is reason to believe the need for inclusion in high school or earlier level sports trumps the need for fairness (excluding tournaments). I say this because, in professional sports, the legacy and livelihood of people is dependent on an equal playing field. Events like the Olympics are designed to show the best of human ability, and an unfair advantage almost nullifies that purpose entirely.
However, high school sports aren't that. I have yet to be convinced that the need for fairness when next to nothing is at stake, nor have I been convinced that said need overrules the mental health and inclusion and acceptance of trans individuals trying to live their live as and alongside the gender they identify as. In my opinion, while it is obvious that there would be some people who would be frustrated with the inclusion of people they can never beat, I believe that represents the greatest opportunity to learn and to be challenged. This is something I can attest to from my own personal experiences, but, again, it is a matter of opinion. I put the breaks on inclusion in tournament settings because the entire purpose is to provide recognition for the ability of those who compete, whereas in a club setting, the purpose is to encourage growth and be a fun place for an extracurricular activity. However, none of my beliefs with regards to highschool sports are set in stone.
Oh, you're more than welcome. If you have chosen to preemptively rebuttal me, which is the only way I can see that making a difference, that will be more than transparent to anyone reading and my arguments will stand nonetheless.
If you want to claim that "the ones who don't detransition realize they made a mistake and commit suicide", maybe it wouldn't hurt to link a single source? Just a thought, since I've never heard a single study relating to how the remaining 98%-99.8% of trans people choose to kill themselves, and also I linked 6 different sources.
Without examining how accurate your first claim is (mostly because I truly am not sure of it's validity), to repeat my position, I in no way endorse or support that for the sake of this debate. While there are those who argue for transgender inclusion in professional athletics before 5 years of HRT or for immediately, even, and there is certainly merit to the evidence they present at times, it's not a position I am fully prepared to support.
I won't comment on your beliefs with regards to hormones either, as I do not know what qualifies as 'too young'. My stance regarding that is informed by statistics of the rate of transgender people that detransition (usually between 0.2% and 2% [often closer to <=1%]) and the lack of evidence to believe a significantly higher rate exists for adolescents (partially because of insufficient data)[1][2][3][4]. This evidence combined with my own experiences within the 2SLGBTQQIAAPN+ community are why I support an individual's right to pursue a medical transition after the age of 16, up until which they can use puberty-blockers, which is a position supported by the majority of modern scientists[5].
The only thing I will contest is that I know of no evidence to suggest that bottom surgery is necessary to eliminate 'testosterone advantage'. The amount of testosterone in trans females using anti-androgens (ex: Spironolactone) is significantly reduced and is replaced with estrogen through the use of estradiol[6]. I am prepared to acquiesce this nonetheless if I turn out to be incorrect in testosterone's impact and the effectiveness of anti-androgens, but my position would still stand.
Sources:
1. "The End of the Desistance Myth" http://www.brynntannehill.com/the-end-of-the-desistance-myth/
2. "Factors Leading to "Detransition" Among Transgender and Gender Diverse People in the United States: A Mixed-Methods Analysis" https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/lgbt.2020.0437
3. "Retransition or Detransition: Statistics, Health Care" https://www.verywellhealth.com/detransition-or-retransition-5093126
4. "Research shows less than 5% who medically transition detransition, not 80%" https://morganeoger.ca/2019/06/09/research-shows-less-than-5-who-medically-transition-detransition-not-80/
5. "Dynamic gender presentations: Understanding transition and "de-transition" among transgender youth." https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2018-33024-004
6. "Wikipedia Spironolactone (paragraph 3 of Pharmacology/Pharmacodynamics) (this was the best source for explanation even though it is wikipedia)" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spironolactone#Pharmacology
You can say that I believe I am 'entitled to rob cis females of their medals' or I am 'appealing to people's sympathies and fears of being called phobic of something' if you would like to. That doesn't change the fact my entire stance is centred around fairness, and, funnily enough, you haven't challenged my stance or my facts at all. I'd prefer if cis females weren't robbed of their achievements, in fact.
Assigned Male At Birth (AMAB) athletes perform better than AFAB athletes. I have tried to give good reason to believe that the factors that one might believe are the cause of this difference in ability are either insufficient to be classified as an unfair advantage across gender lines (ex: bone density) or can be changed with years of hormone therapy. Claim I am 'guilt tripping' or 'appealing to fear of being labelled transphobic' if you please, but I'm not going to claim you're transphobic unless you do something transphobic, and you haven't. The only thing you've done is say I'm trying to fearmonger or guilt-trip so that you can avoid responding to any of the things I actually said.
After further looking into it, I've found evidence to suggest there isn't good reason to believe it should be standardized. I have not, however, found good reason to believe it shouldn't be standardized. I don't feel like con can have a good position in this debate for that reason.
Oh, and I also forgot to mention something. Where I was going with her final fight being in September of 2014 and coming out as trans in March of 2013 means that I in no way endorse her participation in women's sports because, as stated prior, I am only defending the position that after a full transition should a trans athlete be able to compete at the professional level. Making a sweeping statement about transgender athletes using someone who physically could not have completed their transition even partially as an example is disingenuous, but nonetheless it seems that the data would, in spite of these facts, still fall on my side of the house.
Fallon Fox came out as transgender on March 5th of 2013[1], at which point she had beaten 2 opponents in her professional fight record in the first round both times In her amateur fight record, she is undefeated winning every fight in the first round. Since March 5th, she has had 4 more fights, one of which she lost in the third round and only one of which she won in the first round. Moreover, her final fight was in September of 2014.[2] If we look at the professional stats, two opponents always cited against Fallon Fox (who she actually fought before coming out as trans), Ericka Newsome and Elisha Helsper, both have never won a single professional MMA match[3][4].
What we take from all of this information is that not only was Fallon Fox not a 'terrible fighter until he started fighting women' (I don't simply not notice your choice to misgender her either), but moreover, the record that would prove utter domination after coming out as MtF were your claims true goes to show that she performed worse after coming out as trans as opposed to something that would prove unfairness.
If you want to bring the validity of my sources or my information into question, please feel free to do so. I don't want to be the kind of person who can never be wrong, nor do I want to use sources that aren't valid. But I don't think you can do that when you don't provide sources of your own, make claims that go against the information I presented from my sources, and simply declare the data I use is 'cherry picked' for no other reason than you want it to be.
Citations:
1. "Fallon Fox Comes Out as Trans Pro MMA Fighter" https://www.outsports.com/2013/3/5/4068840/fallon-fox-trans-pro-mma-fighter
2. "Fallon Fox MMA Career Statistics" https://www.mixedmartialarts.com/fighter/Fallon-Fox:8EE8EE2C62CA09BF/
3. "Ericka Newsome MMA Career Statistics" https://www.mixedmartialarts.com/fighter/Ericka-Newsome:19406A5D01DAE992/
4. "Elisha Helper MMA Career Statistics" https://www.mixedmartialarts.com/fighter/Elisha-Helsper:CE4E8692AA7FBF31/
It's intriguing how you choose to forget trans individuals who begin hormone replacement therapy early enough into puberty to the point your claims make no sense, but here's some sources for you anyways since you seem to have forgotten to use any yourself.
1. Bone density varies vastly more on race than gender https://www.salon.com/2013/06/30/debunking_unfair_advantage_myths_about_trans_athletes_partner/
2. You say 'lower testosterone than they used to have' to describe an MtF transition, which is innacurate since the entire purpose of anti-androgens is to completely block the vast majority of testosterone production and replace it with estradiol. Sources about HRT here (https://transcare.ucsf.edu/guidelines/feminizing-hormone-therapy and https://www.drugs.com/mcp/feminizing-hormone-therapy)
3. Sports Med in 2017 research paper reviewing competitve policy regarding transgender people https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5357259/
Moreover, allow me to directly quote from the 3rd links conclusion section in the abstract:
"Currently, there is no direct or consistent research suggesting transgender female individuals (or male individuals) have an athletic advantage at any stage of their transition (e.g. cross-sex hormones, gender-confirming surgery) and, therefore, competitive sport policies that place restrictions on transgender people need to be considered and potentially revised."
Unfortunately, that's a question I cannot answer. It's best left up to experts to review data (which I don't believe exists in abundance yet) regarding muscle-fat distributions, lactate threshold, rate of muscle gain, etc... to decide that and for policy changes to follow. However, as a general answer, the majority of effects from Hormone Replacement Therapy(HRT), excluding the use of progesterone (an optional supplement to anti-androgens and estradiol which anecdotal evidence suggests may increase breast maximum growth, but has potential side effects [the use of which also lacks data]), will come no later than 5 years after the beginning of treatment on average. Certain aspects can reach their maximum no later than 2 years on average (ex: breast growth).
You can find more information about HRT here:
https://transcare.ucsf.edu/guidelines/feminizing-hormone-therapy
https://www.drugs.com/mcp/feminizing-hormone-therapy
Fallon Fox broke a part of her opponent's skull in the women's UFC, yes. What you leave out is that a) injuries to sections of the skull are not an uncommon occurrence in MMA[1][2][3], b) her cisgender colleagues have, at times, outperformed her[2] and, the image I believe you're referencing came from a fight that did not even involve Fallon Fox and occurred years after her last fight[3], and c) I in no way endorse trans women who just came out be given the right to immediately compete at the PROFESSIONAL level, since that is obviously unfair. I believe that after years of hormone therapy, at which point a person's muscle-fat distribution and hormones have changed to a level that could be seen in a cisgender female (and often is with women at the professional level of any sport), that is when I believe it is not an unfair advantage[4]. I'll leave it to later in this debate to go further in depth.
Sources:
1: "Incidence of Injury in Professional MMA Competitions" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3863915/
2: "Finding the truth about transgender athletes in women's sports" https://www.outsports.com/2021/2/22/22296155/fallon-fox-trans-mma-fighter-lie-inclusion-misleading
3: "Social media posts mislead about transgender MMA fighter's injuries to opponents" https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/mar/16/facebook-posts/social-media-posts-mislead-about-transgender-mma-f/
4: "Debunking "Unfair Advantage" Myths About Trans Athletes" https://www.salon.com/2013/06/30/debunking_unfair_advantage_myths_about_trans_athletes_partner/
I feel any arguments I make in this debate would be heavily centred around the lack of high quality, extensive studies regarding the use of frankincense and the possible side effects. I'll have to do some more research, especially with regards to what constitutes sufficient or insufficient evidence for the standardization of any medical treatment before I'm confident. I'll check back soon if this is still open.
Hoo boy. Being trans, I have a lot to say on this topic, but rather than do that, I just wanted to say that this a great debate from both of you. It was very interesting to read!
I would disagree on that. I believe the issue of transgender people in sports boils down to the questions of "can a transgender athlete compete without an advantage or disadvantage with a cisgender athlete most of the time?" And/or "are the traits/factors regularly seen in transgender athletes that would imply an advantage or disadvantage not already seen in cisgender athletes?" These are questions that should be answered by experts, not by individual stadiums, lest we leave a huge opening for transphobia and people's preconceived notions. The extent I would agree with you is that stadiums and teams should be able to choose at what point in your transition/what threshold of ___ you are at that you should be able to participate.
"Only because the ones who don't detransition realize they made a mistake and commit suicide. Not something to brag about"
I don't know about you, but I don't see the word 'regret' or any synonyms of it in this sentence. The irony.
I have specified that all the arguments I was making applied to professional sports for good reason. While the majority of my information and arguments relate to professional sports, as that's the realm that this issue is usually discussed in, I believe there are very good arguments that suggest there is reason to believe the need for inclusion in high school or earlier level sports trumps the need for fairness (excluding tournaments). I say this because, in professional sports, the legacy and livelihood of people is dependent on an equal playing field. Events like the Olympics are designed to show the best of human ability, and an unfair advantage almost nullifies that purpose entirely.
However, high school sports aren't that. I have yet to be convinced that the need for fairness when next to nothing is at stake, nor have I been convinced that said need overrules the mental health and inclusion and acceptance of trans individuals trying to live their live as and alongside the gender they identify as. In my opinion, while it is obvious that there would be some people who would be frustrated with the inclusion of people they can never beat, I believe that represents the greatest opportunity to learn and to be challenged. This is something I can attest to from my own personal experiences, but, again, it is a matter of opinion. I put the breaks on inclusion in tournament settings because the entire purpose is to provide recognition for the ability of those who compete, whereas in a club setting, the purpose is to encourage growth and be a fun place for an extracurricular activity. However, none of my beliefs with regards to highschool sports are set in stone.
Oh, you're more than welcome. If you have chosen to preemptively rebuttal me, which is the only way I can see that making a difference, that will be more than transparent to anyone reading and my arguments will stand nonetheless.
If you want to claim that "the ones who don't detransition realize they made a mistake and commit suicide", maybe it wouldn't hurt to link a single source? Just a thought, since I've never heard a single study relating to how the remaining 98%-99.8% of trans people choose to kill themselves, and also I linked 6 different sources.
Without examining how accurate your first claim is (mostly because I truly am not sure of it's validity), to repeat my position, I in no way endorse or support that for the sake of this debate. While there are those who argue for transgender inclusion in professional athletics before 5 years of HRT or for immediately, even, and there is certainly merit to the evidence they present at times, it's not a position I am fully prepared to support.
I won't comment on your beliefs with regards to hormones either, as I do not know what qualifies as 'too young'. My stance regarding that is informed by statistics of the rate of transgender people that detransition (usually between 0.2% and 2% [often closer to <=1%]) and the lack of evidence to believe a significantly higher rate exists for adolescents (partially because of insufficient data)[1][2][3][4]. This evidence combined with my own experiences within the 2SLGBTQQIAAPN+ community are why I support an individual's right to pursue a medical transition after the age of 16, up until which they can use puberty-blockers, which is a position supported by the majority of modern scientists[5].
The only thing I will contest is that I know of no evidence to suggest that bottom surgery is necessary to eliminate 'testosterone advantage'. The amount of testosterone in trans females using anti-androgens (ex: Spironolactone) is significantly reduced and is replaced with estrogen through the use of estradiol[6]. I am prepared to acquiesce this nonetheless if I turn out to be incorrect in testosterone's impact and the effectiveness of anti-androgens, but my position would still stand.
Sources:
1. "The End of the Desistance Myth" http://www.brynntannehill.com/the-end-of-the-desistance-myth/
2. "Factors Leading to "Detransition" Among Transgender and Gender Diverse People in the United States: A Mixed-Methods Analysis" https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/lgbt.2020.0437
3. "Retransition or Detransition: Statistics, Health Care" https://www.verywellhealth.com/detransition-or-retransition-5093126
4. "Research shows less than 5% who medically transition detransition, not 80%" https://morganeoger.ca/2019/06/09/research-shows-less-than-5-who-medically-transition-detransition-not-80/
5. "Dynamic gender presentations: Understanding transition and "de-transition" among transgender youth." https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2018-33024-004
6. "Wikipedia Spironolactone (paragraph 3 of Pharmacology/Pharmacodynamics) (this was the best source for explanation even though it is wikipedia)" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spironolactone#Pharmacology
You can say that I believe I am 'entitled to rob cis females of their medals' or I am 'appealing to people's sympathies and fears of being called phobic of something' if you would like to. That doesn't change the fact my entire stance is centred around fairness, and, funnily enough, you haven't challenged my stance or my facts at all. I'd prefer if cis females weren't robbed of their achievements, in fact.
Assigned Male At Birth (AMAB) athletes perform better than AFAB athletes. I have tried to give good reason to believe that the factors that one might believe are the cause of this difference in ability are either insufficient to be classified as an unfair advantage across gender lines (ex: bone density) or can be changed with years of hormone therapy. Claim I am 'guilt tripping' or 'appealing to fear of being labelled transphobic' if you please, but I'm not going to claim you're transphobic unless you do something transphobic, and you haven't. The only thing you've done is say I'm trying to fearmonger or guilt-trip so that you can avoid responding to any of the things I actually said.
After further looking into it, I've found evidence to suggest there isn't good reason to believe it should be standardized. I have not, however, found good reason to believe it shouldn't be standardized. I don't feel like con can have a good position in this debate for that reason.
Oh, and I also forgot to mention something. Where I was going with her final fight being in September of 2014 and coming out as trans in March of 2013 means that I in no way endorse her participation in women's sports because, as stated prior, I am only defending the position that after a full transition should a trans athlete be able to compete at the professional level. Making a sweeping statement about transgender athletes using someone who physically could not have completed their transition even partially as an example is disingenuous, but nonetheless it seems that the data would, in spite of these facts, still fall on my side of the house.
Fallon Fox came out as transgender on March 5th of 2013[1], at which point she had beaten 2 opponents in her professional fight record in the first round both times In her amateur fight record, she is undefeated winning every fight in the first round. Since March 5th, she has had 4 more fights, one of which she lost in the third round and only one of which she won in the first round. Moreover, her final fight was in September of 2014.[2] If we look at the professional stats, two opponents always cited against Fallon Fox (who she actually fought before coming out as trans), Ericka Newsome and Elisha Helsper, both have never won a single professional MMA match[3][4].
What we take from all of this information is that not only was Fallon Fox not a 'terrible fighter until he started fighting women' (I don't simply not notice your choice to misgender her either), but moreover, the record that would prove utter domination after coming out as MtF were your claims true goes to show that she performed worse after coming out as trans as opposed to something that would prove unfairness.
If you want to bring the validity of my sources or my information into question, please feel free to do so. I don't want to be the kind of person who can never be wrong, nor do I want to use sources that aren't valid. But I don't think you can do that when you don't provide sources of your own, make claims that go against the information I presented from my sources, and simply declare the data I use is 'cherry picked' for no other reason than you want it to be.
Citations:
1. "Fallon Fox Comes Out as Trans Pro MMA Fighter" https://www.outsports.com/2013/3/5/4068840/fallon-fox-trans-pro-mma-fighter
2. "Fallon Fox MMA Career Statistics" https://www.mixedmartialarts.com/fighter/Fallon-Fox:8EE8EE2C62CA09BF/
3. "Ericka Newsome MMA Career Statistics" https://www.mixedmartialarts.com/fighter/Ericka-Newsome:19406A5D01DAE992/
4. "Elisha Helper MMA Career Statistics" https://www.mixedmartialarts.com/fighter/Elisha-Helsper:CE4E8692AA7FBF31/
It's intriguing how you choose to forget trans individuals who begin hormone replacement therapy early enough into puberty to the point your claims make no sense, but here's some sources for you anyways since you seem to have forgotten to use any yourself.
1. Bone density varies vastly more on race than gender https://www.salon.com/2013/06/30/debunking_unfair_advantage_myths_about_trans_athletes_partner/
2. You say 'lower testosterone than they used to have' to describe an MtF transition, which is innacurate since the entire purpose of anti-androgens is to completely block the vast majority of testosterone production and replace it with estradiol. Sources about HRT here (https://transcare.ucsf.edu/guidelines/feminizing-hormone-therapy and https://www.drugs.com/mcp/feminizing-hormone-therapy)
3. Sports Med in 2017 research paper reviewing competitve policy regarding transgender people https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5357259/
Moreover, allow me to directly quote from the 3rd links conclusion section in the abstract:
"Currently, there is no direct or consistent research suggesting transgender female individuals (or male individuals) have an athletic advantage at any stage of their transition (e.g. cross-sex hormones, gender-confirming surgery) and, therefore, competitive sport policies that place restrictions on transgender people need to be considered and potentially revised."
Unfortunately, that's a question I cannot answer. It's best left up to experts to review data (which I don't believe exists in abundance yet) regarding muscle-fat distributions, lactate threshold, rate of muscle gain, etc... to decide that and for policy changes to follow. However, as a general answer, the majority of effects from Hormone Replacement Therapy(HRT), excluding the use of progesterone (an optional supplement to anti-androgens and estradiol which anecdotal evidence suggests may increase breast maximum growth, but has potential side effects [the use of which also lacks data]), will come no later than 5 years after the beginning of treatment on average. Certain aspects can reach their maximum no later than 2 years on average (ex: breast growth).
You can find more information about HRT here:
https://transcare.ucsf.edu/guidelines/feminizing-hormone-therapy
https://www.drugs.com/mcp/feminizing-hormone-therapy
Fallon Fox broke a part of her opponent's skull in the women's UFC, yes. What you leave out is that a) injuries to sections of the skull are not an uncommon occurrence in MMA[1][2][3], b) her cisgender colleagues have, at times, outperformed her[2] and, the image I believe you're referencing came from a fight that did not even involve Fallon Fox and occurred years after her last fight[3], and c) I in no way endorse trans women who just came out be given the right to immediately compete at the PROFESSIONAL level, since that is obviously unfair. I believe that after years of hormone therapy, at which point a person's muscle-fat distribution and hormones have changed to a level that could be seen in a cisgender female (and often is with women at the professional level of any sport), that is when I believe it is not an unfair advantage[4]. I'll leave it to later in this debate to go further in depth.
Sources:
1: "Incidence of Injury in Professional MMA Competitions" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3863915/
2: "Finding the truth about transgender athletes in women's sports" https://www.outsports.com/2021/2/22/22296155/fallon-fox-trans-mma-fighter-lie-inclusion-misleading
3: "Social media posts mislead about transgender MMA fighter's injuries to opponents" https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/mar/16/facebook-posts/social-media-posts-mislead-about-transgender-mma-f/
4: "Debunking "Unfair Advantage" Myths About Trans Athletes" https://www.salon.com/2013/06/30/debunking_unfair_advantage_myths_about_trans_athletes_partner/
If there were clown emojis on this website, I would use them right now.
I feel any arguments I make in this debate would be heavily centred around the lack of high quality, extensive studies regarding the use of frankincense and the possible side effects. I'll have to do some more research, especially with regards to what constitutes sufficient or insufficient evidence for the standardization of any medical treatment before I'm confident. I'll check back soon if this is still open.
This isn't the first debate you've been in with regards to trans people I've read. You're doing wonderfully! Better than I would sometimes, even, haha
I would personally disagree, but I understand your position. I'd be happy to have a discussion or debate about if you'd ever like to!
Hoo boy. Being trans, I have a lot to say on this topic, but rather than do that, I just wanted to say that this a great debate from both of you. It was very interesting to read!
I like to think that I am, haha. I'm happy to have the chance to have a discussion such as this one!
I respect you for bringing that up. Intersex people are a very important thing to consider in debate such as this one.
I would disagree on that. I believe the issue of transgender people in sports boils down to the questions of "can a transgender athlete compete without an advantage or disadvantage with a cisgender athlete most of the time?" And/or "are the traits/factors regularly seen in transgender athletes that would imply an advantage or disadvantage not already seen in cisgender athletes?" These are questions that should be answered by experts, not by individual stadiums, lest we leave a huge opening for transphobia and people's preconceived notions. The extent I would agree with you is that stadiums and teams should be able to choose at what point in your transition/what threshold of ___ you are at that you should be able to participate.
How do you define 'sex work' for this debate?