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@Mesmer
"Justly killed for their violence against officers"
My friend, if I have to be the one to inform you that nobody deserves to die unless their death is the only way to prevent significant harm or death of others, you are beyond help. I don't know how to explain to you that an officer perceiving an individual to be 'violent' does not warrant their execution.
I don't think George Floyd needed to die when he was already restrained and unable to breathe.
I don't think Philando Castile needed to be murdered because someone had an itchy trigger finger.
I don't think Jacob Blake needed to be shot 7 times for the crime of opening the door to the van with his 3 kids inside.
I can't wait for you to tell me that putting a knee on someone's neck for nine minutes as they beg for air is 'just' or 'preventing violence.' The deaths or injury of these men is not 'fake news'; I assure you that their tombstones are very real. I not only support those who want to tear down the system borne from union-busting and slave catching that routinely commits these murders with no consequence, but I am disgusted at those who can look at that system and claim that it is just.
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@949havoc
Ignoring everything else in this thread:
>Cites Fox news like a boss
>Cites Fox news like a boss
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@Tradesecret
I'm fairly certain it's not the answer you're looking for, nor am I sure my answer is applicable, but the absolute bare minimum foundation of truth is that truth exists at all. If one would like to claim that truth does not exist, I'd question if they consider said claim to be true in the first place?
We can also be certain that a sufficient process or sufficient cause could lead to a sufficient result or sufficient effect if we perform the process and get that result.
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@TheUnderdog
Please read the other three points I mentioned prior instead of just the conclusion. I can give you consistency only when you agree that they're different situations, which they are.
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@Tradesecret
Did the math really quickly. On average, only 1 out of every 26,289 Australians have died from COVID-19 and only 1 out of every 562 Australians have caught COVID-19.
So to not know someone who has caught COVID would be fairly typical in Australia.
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@Intelligence_06
Isn't this addressed by the idea of properly basic beliefs? That our experiences and senses can be trusted until we have reason not to trust them?
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@Wylted
No, in fact my parents have yet to voice their opposition (if it exists), but nice try.
Keep walking in the face of scientific evidence should you so please.
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@TheUnderdog
I don't think either of these are extremists
U.S. debt to GDP ratio was ~108% in 2020. While this is a problem, I don't see why we can't tax the 1% and use the money to overhaul our system of policing or anti-terrorism, since neither of those seem to be working.
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@TheUnderdog
I advocate for what we have in Canada: Close-in-age exceptions.
- Age of Consent is 16
- If you are 14-15, you can have sex with someone who is up to 5 years older than you and is not in a position of authority, respect or dependence
- If you are 12-13, you can have sex with someone who is up to 2 years older than you and is not in a position of authority, respect or dependence.
Now, I think that some of these numbers are a bit iffy, but the general concept is sound. The idea of an age of consent should not so much be used as a way to prevent a 16 year old from having sex with a 15 year old as much as it should be used to prevent a 40 year old from having sex with a 15 year old, and this system accomplishes that.
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@TheUnderdog
Sex where the animal consents is wrong because the animal must be protected.
You're:
- Assuming animals have the intellectual capacity and maturity to consent
- Assuming they have the communication to express consent (especially towards specific sexual acts rather than just sex in general)
- Assuming there is no way for either the animal or the human to be physically harmed
Humanity's existence as an omnivore in the food web is not at all equivalent to fucking an animal.
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@Wylted
I feel like you're talking from experience rather than consensus among those who lived in foster homes. I do apologize that you had to endure an abusive situation, though.
Nonetheless, the fact the focus is on 'keeping families together' and not 'ensuring children are happy, healthy, and well looked-after' is abhorrent. The reason is obvious, however: any politician that DARES to insinuate that a parent has no right to a child that they are not properly taking care of would absolutely bomb the next election, because the current culture encourages parents to view children as property and to take offence at any notion that they might be not the greatest of parent. In this vein, CPS fails.
Nonetheless, the fact the focus is on 'keeping families together' and not 'ensuring children are happy, healthy, and well looked-after' is abhorrent. The reason is obvious, however: any politician that DARES to insinuate that a parent has no right to a child that they are not properly taking care of would absolutely bomb the next election, because the current culture encourages parents to view children as property and to take offence at any notion that they might be not the greatest of parent. In this vein, CPS fails.
When it comes to social workers, my experience was very positive. I was able to get a social worker who listened to me and helped me through some of my problems. For what they couldn't do, they connected me to organizations that provided free counselling that could fill those gaps. I'm very grateful for social services for that reason.
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@Reece101
I mean... Have you SEEN the right?
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@3RU7AL
@Theweakeredge
@StevenCrowder
This is probably a bad place to discuss this, but also I fail to see how being able to select it as a political ideology constitutes promotion.
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@StevenCrowder
They act like giving them free homes will fix the problem (thats communism by the way)
Your inability to understand what communism actually means portrays your position better than any rebuttal I could ever muster.
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@StevenCrowder
k.
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@drlebronski
It is super authoritarian and I don't support it. All I was claiming is that it is not inherently authoritarian or bad, but rather it's because of the nature of people, nature of government, and the capacity for corruption and abuse that make it utterly horrifying.
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@Bones
I was unsatisfied with the links I gave to show how transition does improve the lives of trans people as many are designed to prove something else entirely. Here are some better ones:
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@Bones
It’s at this point that we’re talking about two different things: How someone can be transgender mentally and how someone could change their gender physically. All of what I said up to this point has talked about how one can be trans mentally, but I do want to emphasize that these are different questions. You also discuss chromosomes a lot, so I’m responding to that here too.
These are (most of) the chromosomes you can have:
- XX
- XY
- X
- XXX
- XXY
- XYY
- XXXX
- XXXY
- XXYY
- XYYY
- XXXXX
- XXXXY
- XXXYY
- XXYYY
- XYYYY
Your presumption is that the presence of a y chromosome at all makes someone female. Even if it does, these are all different chromosomes that have different properties. To simply place the barrier of “having a Y chromosome” on being of the female sex is a meaningless, pointless distinction. We can easily draw lines to separate things, but what worth are they if the lines don’t mean anything?
Sure, you could continue to divide sex by chromosomes and chromosomes only, but at the end of the day, once you reach the point of accepting that someone who is in every conceivable, biological/physical way a woman except for the fact that they have male chromosomes and thus are a man, it becomes meaningless. Sex stops being able to tell us anything and stops showing anything more than chromosomes. A woman who is a woman in every way but has the chromosomes of a man is obviously still a woman, even if technically they’re not because of their chromosomes, and they have all the biology we’d expect from a woman except for chromosomes. In that sense, I suppose I’d agree with you, as chromosomes are unchangeable, but I ask one question: what’s the point?
What’s the point of dividing sex based on this one characteristic that impacts nothing, this one meaningless fact that separates two groups of people and then tries to make commentary far beyond that one fact? Trans women may never have female chromosomes, but so what? Where’s the value in saying “But they’ll never biologically be a woman” when, again, this distinction between biological men and women impacts nothing. To quote Pediaa.com (https://pediaa.com/what-is-the-difference-between-xx-and-xy-chromosomes/ ):
"...the main difference between XX and XY chromosomes is the type of gender in which they occur."
Trans women can have breasts, female muscle/fat distribution, female voices, female hormones, female neurobiology, etc… In all ways that matter, they are women and doctors should give them care as women, even if they technically aren’t. It’s not overwriting biology to say that setting a meaningless threshold to divide two groups and to then try to derive any use or function from that meaningless division is pointless, and all of this rests on the assumption that people insurmountably more often than not only fall into the male or female box, which I discussed earlier.
If a woman one day finds out she has male chromosomes, she is a woman, and we need not just ‘pretend’ she is for the sake of her own well-being. She is a woman physically, mentally, socially, culturally, and personally.
“B-properties change if and only if A-Properties are changed; you increase the vibration of the particles (add energy to the system), the temperature changes.”
This reminds me somewhat of physical vs chemical properties from chemistry class. I apologize if I am not understanding, but I’ll try to.
Take the example of female biology. Some common A-properties of women would be:
- They have breasts
- They have female muscle/fat distribution patterns
- They have higher or lower neuron densities in certain parts of the brain compared to men
- They have female chromosomes
- They have a uterus and ovaries
- They have a vagina
- They have female hormones
- Etc…
All of these relate to the questions of what is, how much is there, and where is it? These are all A-properties. However, not all women have all of these A-properties. In apples, due to the presence of certain plant pigments (not just colour, which would be a B-property, but rather colour is a result of the A-property that is the specific substance [or ‘essence’] that makes up the skin of an apple), they can have different colours. Some apple skins are red due to the plant pigment lycopene and some are green due to chlorophyll. These plant pigments are different A-properties as, again, it is referring to a difference in what actually makes up the apple.
It is an absurd claim to say that a green apple is an entirely different fruit from a red apple. This, along with common sense of women who have their uterus removed are not men, shows that the removal or addition of an A-property does not change the group of ‘thing’ that the object is a part of. I say all of this because you discussed chromosomes when saying this, which are only one singular A-property. I see no reason that trans women, who contain all of these A-properties but one, shouldn’t be considered biological women when the removal of some other A-property doesn’t make biological women into men. Gender does not aim to make a commentary on the biological nonetheless.
“I suppose this is just a fundamental point we disagree with. I don't believe that, no matter how much distress you are in, if you want to become black you can just erase your ancestry and do so. I am all for this person saying "culturally, and ethnically I am African" but to say that your race has magically changed? That's a bit too far.”
I don’t disagree, I think transracialism is ridiculous and I was only trying to show why the comparison to transracialism and transgenderism didn’t make sense. Referring to the above in which I discussed A-properties, the fact of the matter is that, as far as I know, non-black people can’t gain the A-properties of black people. Things like skin colour or the tendency to have certain genes aren’t things you can just acquire.
Sorry this was so long, but I hope I've convinced you somewhat.
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@Bones
I’ve realized that my previous post had a somewhat condescending and hostile tone to it, likely from sheer force of habit as I’m usually saying these things to people who are actively hateful. Nonetheless, I wanted to apologize for that. My conduct wasn’t particularly amiable despite yours has been, and I am sorry for that. Now that I have some more free time, I’ll try to go further in depth.
But then surely if you cannot change your mind, then it is a biological issue. What is the point of defining gender as something which has bearing on biology, and then using biological phenomenons to justify the word? It seems that eithera) gender is in the mind so you can just change your mindb) gender is not in the mind silly ideas like "change your mind" won't work, as the issue is more firmly grounded in science.I wholeheartedly agree that trans people aren't merely some attention seeking folks. But the issue I have is that they propose gender is in the mind, when it is very clear that there are "issues" in the biological wiring of trans people. (I'm not trying to be transphobic, but clearly someone who thinks they are a boy when they are a girl has, at best some small issue. After all, it would be much better for everyone if a trans female was born as a female)
(Also I do want to note that the term ‘non-physical’ is dubious)
This is a non-sequitur. As I said at the beginning of my first post, just because something seems a way doesn’t prove anything if the facts are contradictory. Gender is a part of identity and personhood, both things which are a part of the mind (whether you believe there’s a spiritual part of that which goes beyond the body [as I do] or not, they at least are connected to the brain), and I agree that gender is thus in the mind, but I don’t agree that you can change your mind. The issue of gender incongruence is no more biological than the issue of depression or ADHD.
As afraid as I am that I am accidentally trying to sever the realms of neuroscience and biology, I’m going to try to word this carefully to try and avoid that. Something can both be non-physical/of the mind and still be biological. We know that certain aspects of the brain (e.g. neutron densities, areas of more or less activity, etc…) in trans females aligns with cis females, yet nonetheless, it’s still in the mind. This is similar for people with depression, ADHD, risk-taking tendencies, workaholics, etc… They’re all things that exist in the mind, but neuroscience shows that there are very real neurobiological differences in the brain.
It’s easy to say that because it’s in the mind that you can change it, but think of gender incongruence as it is: a disorder. Again, I have ADHD (and to a significantly lesser part, currently or formerly [I’m not sure tbh], anxiety and depression). I was never able to just change my mind, and even if I can reach a point where I can function and act like I don’t, that doesn’t mean I’ll ever be ‘rid’ of ADHD or that it won’t make my quality of life worse. I guess to give a TL;DR: the mind and the non-physical can still be biological to some degree.
Not necessarily. With this standard, one could easily justify things which are (I hope we agree) absolutely ridiculous such as trans-speciesism. I could easily say "I feel like I'm a crab, and getting the entire world to acknowledge this fact will make me happy". The fact is not whether the treatment is effective, it is whether the treatment is synonymous with our understanding of science. Many things will treat many other things. Allowing a wife beater to beat his wife is certainly allowing him to do what he wants, but obviously this is not the best option that there is.
Indeed we could. I should’ve been more specific in my initial post, but this is specifically about mental disorders and knowing that you have one. If you want to know you have one, you get the treatment for it and see if the problem goes away. If it does, you know you have it. How do we know if your distress is because you’re not a girl? Well, become a girl and see if the distress goes away (this is far from the correct way to describe being trans or transitioning but you know what I mean).
I said this in response to your question which was:
“My question is this. How can a cis-gender man know that what they are feeling is the sensation of being a women? This seems impossible without a point of comparison, that is, experiencing being a woman.”
I can never know I am experiencing the sensation of being a woman the same way I can’t know if you see the same colours that I see, but one can ‘know’ they’re transgender because they experience distress that is relieved with gender affirming care or euphoria after gender affirming care. This is the same way that one can know if they have ADHD. One might be able to ‘know’ they’re transspecies if they met this criteria, but none of this was designed to speak about the validity of being transgender or transracial or transspecies. I addressed those later on. Whether or not we feel the exact same way about our gender or identity as a cis woman, we feel that we are women and we will take the actions necessary to align our outward expression with our inwards identity. That’s all that’s needed in the same way that all that’s needed to say “that’s the colour red” is not to know that you see the exact same red as I do, but the fact that we’ll both agree to give that colour the label of ‘red.’
I'm not denying that there is some issue present, but distress is and has never been a reason to adjust science. If transgendered people are feeling distress, and transitioning helps them (I am dubious, but I'll have to look into this more) then maybe transitioning can be used as therapeutic. As a compromise, for the sake of ease, a case could be made for acknowledging transgender persons gender in social situations, but to say that in terms of biology, a man can literally become a women if they want seems to be objectively false.
Here are some sources on transition helping trans people (These sources were originally used to prove that trans people aren’t all depressed or whatever, so they might not all be applicable, but at least a few of them can give insight. I’m certain that, if you look it up as well, you’ll find more sources for this. It’s accepted by almost every psychologist):
Patients Report High Satisfaction with Sex-Reassignment Surgery https://www.issm.info/news/sex-health-headlines/patients-report-high-satisfaction-with-sex-reassignment-surgery/Trends in suicide death risk in transgender people: results from the Amsterdam Cohort of Gender Dysphoria study (1972–2017) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7317390/Psychosocial Adjustment to Sex Reassignment Surgery: A Qualitative Examination and Personal Experiences of Six Transsexual Persons in Croatia https://www.hindawi.com/journals/tswj/2014/960745/Long-Term Follow-Up of Adults with Gender Identity Disorder https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-014-0453-5Long-term Assessment of the Physical, Mental, and Sexual Health among Transsexual Women https://www.researchgate.net/publication/23553588_Long-term_Assessment_of_the_Physical_Mental_and_Sexual_Health_among_Transsexual_WomenWhat does the scholarly research say about the effect of gender transition on transgender well-being? https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/Fact check: study shows transition makes trans people suicidal https://www.transadvocate.com/fact-check-study-shows-transition-makes-trans-people-suicidal_n_15483.htm
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@Greyparrot
I don't disagree. The source I gave talks about how vaccinated people transmit COVID-19 less.
The existence of asymptomatic cases seems irrelevant in this regard.
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@dfss9788
Your continued choice to unreasonably dismiss what I said without explanation rather than clash with any of what I said leads me to believe you're not interested in discussion as much as you are with feeling like you're right. I won't continue to engage with you.
All the best.
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@Greyparrot
Again, I don't mean to say this is fact.
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@Wylted
With regards to David Reimer:
- An individual who had at best a 2% chance of being transgender was forcibly given sex reassignment surgery
- This was a bad thing because their gender identity evidently didn't change, they were experiencing suicidal thoughts and depression, and by 14 years old started to identify as a man.
- They committed suicide.
- Thus, forcing people to be a sex that doesn't align with their gender causes mental health problems and is a bad thing.
He wasn't 'happy' with it when he literally experienced severe depression culminating in his suicide and also he took on a male identity later in life.
And this is somehow evidence to you that trans research is biased?
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@drlebronski
No mom I promise I'm not developing breasts because I'm taking estrogen it's the covid-19 vaccine I swear.
it's the 5g I promise
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@Athias
A position such as this one is far beyond what I am prepared to engage with, as it blatantly ignores scientific evidence and insists that vaccines don't do anything.
I wish you all the best.
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@Greyparrot
See my above point about virus mutation.
Vaccinated people keep unvaccinated people safe by not catching COVID-19 and not giving it to them (at least some evidence would suggest. There is no consensus on if vaccinated people spread COVID-19 less) or not letting it mutate.
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@Athias
Correction:
In order to get the greatest result in terms of helping keep us safe from COVID-19, everyone who can be vaccinated must be vaccinated.
In order to get the greatest result in terms of helping keep us safe from COVID-19, everyone who can be vaccinated must be vaccinated.
Even if vaccines can never totally keep us safe, the point I was trying to make still stands.
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@Greyparrot
Yes. Because death is the only possible consequence from COVID-19 and the 438,000 that make up the remaining 10% don't matter.
You're also assuming that obese people deserve to die, but okay, I guess.
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@dfss9788
You conveniently left out this part of what I said:
"Everyone has a higher chance of keeping the pandemic going forever the more that the virus spreads and mutates until the effectiveness of mRNA vaccines becomes slim to nil."
I'm prepared to concede that these numbers are small. Granted, just because they're 'small' doesn't really defeat my point and just because the death rate is very low doesn't imply that it doesn't possess the capacity to infect others and cause potentially life-long damage, but even if we ignore that, more cases inherently increases the likelihood of mutation and the chance that the virus becomes more resistant to vaccines, more transmissible, and more deadly.
"That's not true. Our immune response to the vaccine keeps us safe. It's not 100%, but neither are seat belts."
When I put on my seatbelt, the amount it keeps me safe is completely independent of other's choice to wear a seatbelt. For the reasons I just mentioned which you would concede to, even though you insist they're small, the amount that I am safe is dependent on the choice of others to be vaccinated.
What of children who have anti-vax parents? Those who can't get the vaccine yet? Those who work 3 jobs and can't afford a day off? We can't simply say "It's your fault you didn't get vaccinated lol. You took the risk" especially when, and I want to stress this, people who are vaccinated can still be infected and have life-long damage.
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@Intelligence_06
You're correct, but as you stated (I think?), the problem with it is the capacity for it to be exploited. I have no problem with the government knowing everything about me for the purpose of, for example, ensuring I am safe and don't harm others, but I know that it would extend far beyond that. How do we ensure that nobody is masturbating to me having sex or that police won't use this as an excuse to harass minorities or that the government won't use it to try and build profiles on a citizen's political beliefs or any number of things like that? We can't.
Governments inherently seek more power. It's better for them to be able to know every political dissident, but it's not better for the political dissident or society at large. I have 5 bijillion extensions on Firefox and go to considerable lengths to ensure I give websites and companies the least amount of data (do you have any idea how boring it is to actually read the privacy policy of every website you're on?) because I know that it's going to be used to invade my privacy for nefarious or profit-making purposes. I guess exploitation is where I draw the line, per se. I'd be hella uncomfortable with the government knowing all about me and seeing my every move, but were I 100% certain it was 100% good and effective and keeping people safe, I'd live with it. The government just can never reach that point.
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@dfss9788
If 20% of the population were swerving aggressively every time they got on the road and nobody was doing anything to stop them, then we should abstain from driving. The issue with this analogy is that seat belts are a choice that help us stay safe regardless of the choices of others, whereas with the vaccine, the only thing that keeps us safe is everyone taking it.
Those who are allergic to the vaccine are hurt by the unvaccinated. Those who are vaccinated have a higher chance of having a breakthrough case due to the unvaccinated. Everyone has a higher chance of keeping the pandemic going forever the more that the virus spreads and mutates until the effectiveness of mRNA vaccines becomes slim to nil.
Those who are allergic to the vaccine are hurt by the unvaccinated. Those who are vaccinated have a higher chance of having a breakthrough case due to the unvaccinated. Everyone has a higher chance of keeping the pandemic going forever the more that the virus spreads and mutates until the effectiveness of mRNA vaccines becomes slim to nil.
Nonetheless, even were this true, the deaths of millions as a result of failing to contain the pandemic to the first wave are still on the governments hands.
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@Wylted
I blocked you because of all the anti-semitic posts you make, but you can believe that if you'd like.
I'll repost what I told you in a previous post.
I'll repost what I told you in a previous post.
You give two reasons a person might transition (with no sources again), the first is called 'autogynephilia'. I won't examine this too harshly since you acquiesce that it is rare (astronomically so to the point of insignificance). But it's worth noting that 93% of cis women are autogynephiliacs[2] and autogynephilia was invented to prove lesbian trans females only exist because of men who get aroused while cross-dressing and was made by the same person who argued that trans women were nothing more than extremely effeminate gay men[3]. The theory as a whole has no basis in logic[3].Your second reason is... Interesting. Again, as a trans person, I find it bold to assume that in a world where you can be put to death for being transgender, trans people are routinely disowned and left homeless[4], face 2x the poverty rate and 3x the unemployment rate[5], and where violence and discrimination are an incredibly regular occurrence, your first presumption is to chalk the suicide rate up to trans people 'still being themselves'.It's even more interesting when you realize that 91% of trans people who have undergone transition surgery would do it again if given the chance[6], something I'm sure you'll ignore by saying it's because those who are dissatisfied are committing suicide (again). This is in spite of a study over 45 years long found <0.6% of 8000+ trans people died by suicide (also showing rates stayed consistent throughout transition)[7] and studies show transition improves mental health/reduces dysphoria[8][9][10][11]. If you would like to claim the Swedish study by that shows increased rates of suicide after transition, here's the researcher who conducted the study saying that, not only is that not what the study shows, but also that transition reduces suicide rates[12].Here's some more sources on satisfaction with gender transition for good measure, including a review of 72 studies that said "The scholarly literature makes clear that gender transition is effective in treating gender dysphoria and can significantly improve the well-being of transgender individuals.[11]"[8][9][10][11]Sorry for the long post. My response to debate should drop tomorrow or the day after.Sources:1. "What to know about female-to-male surgery" https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/326590#surgery2. "From Moser's paper which 'shows autogynephilia in 93% of women'" https://medium.com/@mirandayardley/from-mosers-paper-which-shows-autogynephilia-in-93-of-women-9d9d16f147d23. "The Autogynephilia Theory Debunked by New German Study" https://www.crossdreamers.com/2020/05/the-autogynephilia-theory-debunked-by.html4. "Family Rejection Leaves Too Many Transgender Americans Homeless" https://slate.com/human-interest/2017/01/family-rejection-leaves-too-many-transgender-americans-homeless.html5. "New U.S. Transgender Survey has compelling data about being trans in America" https://www.glaad.org/blog/new-us-transgender-survey-has-compelling-data-about-being-trans-america6. "Patients Report High Satisfaction with Sex-Reassignment Surgery" https://www.issm.info/news/sex-health-headlines/patients-report-high-satisfaction-with-sex-reassignment-surgery/7. "Trends in suicide death risk in transgender people: results from the Amsterdam Cohort of Gender Dysphoria study (1972–2017)" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7317390/8. "Psychosocial Adjustment to Sex Reassignment Surgery: A Qualitative Examination and Personal Experiences of Six Transsexual Persons in Croatia" https://www.hindawi.com/journals/tswj/2014/960745/9. "Long-Term Follow-Up of Adults with Gender Identity Disorder" https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-014-0453-510. "Long-term Assessment of the Physical, Mental, and Sexual Health among Transsexual Women" https://www.researchgate.net/publication/23553588_Long-term_Assessment_of_the_Physical_Mental_and_Sexual_Health_among_Transsexual_Women11. "What does the scholarly research say about the effect of gender transition on transgender well-being? " https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/12. "Fact check: study shows transition makes trans people suicidal" https://www.transadvocate.com/fact-check-study-shows-transition-makes-trans-people-suicidal_n_15483.htm
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Before I say anything, I want to say that the COVID-19 vaccines are effective, side effects from them are either mild or rare, and that, even if the Delta variant has a 20-50% breakthrough rate, vaccines still do prevent hospitalization and death most of the time. The majority of new cases, hospitalizations, and deaths are from the unvaccinated and you should absolutely get vaccinated.
Moving on, I think that, while we've seen that public trust in the government and medical professionals has been incredibly high during the pandemic, while I have no idea what the trust is like now, my trust has decreased if anything. While there's no conspiracy theory to try and microchip me (none of us on this site are important enough to be microchipped), the government has been h a s t y, to put it lightly.
In Canada where I live, we have had three waves and are on the way for a fourth if current trends continue. There was a time in June or July of 2020 where cases were down to as little as under a dozen a day, and it's thanks to the rush to reopen, the inability to properly ensure the virus did not begin exponentially spreading again that caused us to not only have a second wave, but a third, and maybe even a fourth. This all happens despite the fact that New Zealand seemed to be perfectly weathering the storm. Our government failed us in not ending this in July of 2020, and the blood of my countrymen is on the hands of those who prioritize the economy and their performance at the polls over the lives of their constituents.
We have constantly been told over and over and over that the vaccine is 100% safe and effective even as potential side effects were causing us to pause the usage of certain vaccines entirely at the same time. I understand the need to reassure the public, and I agree that the vaccine is safe, but the messaging around things like this reeks of failing to acknowledge genuine risks or symptoms because of the fear of vaccine hesitancy. Yes, it's necessary to combat vaccine hesitancy, but not at the cost of objectivity. Despite the fact I was 100% convinced the vaccine was safe when it came out, the response to the rare and dangerous side effects managed to make me less confident if anything. The only time I have ever been hesitant to get the vaccine was at moments where they were most insisting that it was safe. I have heart issues and I am young, which puts me at risk in some ways to some of these side effects, and it felt like the government was choosing to just ignore it because they were so desperate to reopen.
Journalists and doctors dismissed the Lab Leak Theory from the Wuhan Institute of Virology for months, saying it was naught more than a conspiracy theory and we had completely 100% for certain found that the cause was the Spillover Hypothesis beginning at the Huanan Seafood Market in Wuhan. Then, as soon as Trump leaves office, their tune changes to "Both are plausible explanations that we should explore." I understand that Trump is an aggressive liar and conspiracy theorist and his claims were promoting xenophobia, but it's the responsibility and moral obligation of science to look past its biases and to find the truth, and it absolutely failed here.
Every single damned politician who speaks about the pandemic talks about "getting life back to normal" and "reopening" and not saving human fucking lives. This is the third time that my country is reopening, and to be honest, I'm fucking sick of it. I don't care that I can't leave the house and do stuff I want to, I've always been a sedentary individual, but I am so tired of the prime minister or my premier pretending he gives a shit as he lifts restrictions and effectively sends people to die or deal with the lasting damage of COVID-19. The sheer ability for these people to disregard the very real threat to human life by failing to squash the pandemic just so they can try and reopen ASAP is not only despicable, but is also the very reason that it's taking us even longer to reopen.
There's no excuse for failing to implement contact tracing, refusing to mandate vaccinations in schools, refusing to stay in lockdown as long as it takes, etc... And, after all the months of public trust, seeing the sheer mismanagement, mixed messaging, and trying to ignore things that people don't want to hear to reopen as fast as possible, I feel as though my trust in the government and the medical establishment is at an all time low. All good will I had for the government and all belief I had that the government wouldn't dare willingly allow tens of thousands of deaths of my brothers and sisters has been squandered with the beginning of the fourth wave.
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@Wylted
Seems you've forgotten what we once discussed in the comments of the debate that you forfeit. Allow me to remind you:
You give two reasons a person might transition (with no sources again), the first is called 'autogynephilia'. I won't examine this too harshly since you acquiesce that it is rare (astronomically so to the point of insignificance). But it's worth noting that 93% of cis women are autogynephiliacs[2] and autogynephilia was invented to prove lesbian trans females only exist because of men who get aroused while cross-dressing and was made by the same person who argued that trans women were nothing more than extremely effeminate gay men[3]. The theory as a whole has no basis in logic[3].Your second reason is... Interesting. Again, as a trans person, I find it bold to assume that in a world where you can be put to death for being transgender, trans people are routinely disowned and left homeless[4], face 2x the poverty rate and 3x the unemployment rate[5], and where violence and discrimination are an incredibly regular occurrence, your first presumption is to chalk the suicide rate up to trans people 'still being themselves'.It's even more interesting when you realize that 91% of trans people who have undergone transition surgery would do it again if given the chance[6], something I'm sure you'll ignore by saying it's because those who are dissatisfied are committing suicide (again). This is in spite of a study over 45 years long found <0.6% of 8000+ trans people died by suicide (also showing rates stayed consistent throughout transition)[7] and studies show transition improves mental health/reduces dysphoria[8][9][10][11]. If you would like to claim the Swedish study by that shows increased rates of suicide after transition, here's the researcher who conducted the study saying that, not only is that not what the study shows, but also that transition reduces suicide rates[12].Here's some more sources on satisfaction with gender transition for good measure, including a review of 72 studies that said "The scholarly literature makes clear that gender transition is effective in treating gender dysphoria and can significantly improve the well-being of transgender individuals.[11]"[8][9][10][11]Sorry for the long post. My response to debate should drop tomorrow or the day after.Sources:1. "What to know about female-to-male surgery" https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/326590#surgery2. "From Moser's paper which 'shows autogynephilia in 93% of women'" https://medium.com/@mirandayardley/from-mosers-paper-which-shows-autogynephilia-in-93-of-women-9d9d16f147d23. "The Autogynephilia Theory Debunked by New German Study" https://www.crossdreamers.com/2020/05/the-autogynephilia-theory-debunked-by.html4. "Family Rejection Leaves Too Many Transgender Americans Homeless" https://slate.com/human-interest/2017/01/family-rejection-leaves-too-many-transgender-americans-homeless.html5. "New U.S. Transgender Survey has compelling data about being trans in America" https://www.glaad.org/blog/new-us-transgender-survey-has-compelling-data-about-being-trans-america6. "Patients Report High Satisfaction with Sex-Reassignment Surgery" https://www.issm.info/news/sex-health-headlines/patients-report-high-satisfaction-with-sex-reassignment-surgery/7. "Trends in suicide death risk in transgender people: results from the Amsterdam Cohort of Gender Dysphoria study (1972–2017)" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7317390/8. "Psychosocial Adjustment to Sex Reassignment Surgery: A Qualitative Examination and Personal Experiences of Six Transsexual Persons in Croatia" https://www.hindawi.com/journals/tswj/2014/960745/9. "Long-Term Follow-Up of Adults with Gender Identity Disorder" https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-014-0453-510. "Long-term Assessment of the Physical, Mental, and Sexual Health among Transsexual Women" https://www.researchgate.net/publication/23553588_Long-term_Assessment_of_the_Physical_Mental_and_Sexual_Health_among_Transsexual_Women11. "What does the scholarly research say about the effect of gender transition on transgender well-being? " https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/12. "Fact check: study shows transition makes trans people suicidal" https://www.transadvocate.com/fact-check-study-shows-transition-makes-trans-people-suicidal_n_15483.htm
You still say 'trannies' as well, huh?
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@Bones
Oh yeah, and with regards to chromosomes, I can also bring that up if you think it's a sticking point.
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@Bones
Trans person here: Let me start by saying that it doesn't matter how something seems if the facts are contradictory.
It sounds silly, but if gender has no bearing on physical biology and concerns only one's mind, surely it is easier to just change your mind.
Please believe that millions of us have tried and millions who hate us have tried twice as hard, and yet, it hasn't worked. I don't think I have to link citations to say that conversion therapy, including conversion therapy for trans people, doesn't work. Period. If it was so easy to just 'change my mind', I would've done it, and for 14 years, I tried. I'm not exactly interested in a life of discrimination from transphobes, and I'm certainly not looking forward to the medical expenses either, but I wasn't given the option.
Picture the following. Since my childhood, I have always said that I am a native African (disclaimer I am not black). I have always felt “wrong”, in that my mind does not coincide with my body. For some reason, I just feel black. No doubt some of you hard core liberals would be halting at this scenario. What exactly does it mean to feel black? Am I being racist? Not at all, I have the exact same question as you do. How can one feel that they are black? Surely, the only way to know how it feels like to be black is to be black? How can a non-African possibly assert that they “feel” African without even being African? How would they know what the sensation is like? How would they know that what they feel are the feelings black people? Again, if you think that I am treading on the line of racism, I am only employing the ideology of transgendered people. My question is this. How can a cis-gender man know that what they are feeling is the sensation of being a women? This seems impossible without a point of comparison, that is, experiencing being a woman.
To quote the psychiatrist that diagnosed me with ADHD and recommended to my doctor I start on medication: "The best way to know for sure that you have a disorder is to see if the treatment for that disorder works." We can talk about gender, about how it coincides with identity, what it feels like, non-western ideas of gender, all that stuff, but that's a bit too complicated for me to write as I'm low-key behind schedule going to the bank, eheh. What we know for certain is that there are people who experience distress at looking like, sounding like, being considered as, and being expected to act as their sociocultural environment would expect from the gender that they themselves do not align with.
Furthermore, what we also know is that this distress goes away with gender affirming care with a great deal of success (I can expand upon this later if you want). We know there are thousands of accounts of people who just felt something was "off" and, upon learning what it meant to be transgender, figured out what was wrong. I'm one of those people.
There are millions of trans people that have existed across thousands of years, and we know that there's a condition and we know what the solution to it is. The condition is being gender non-conforming (to varying degrees of distress if any) and the solution is transition (to whatever degree the individual desires and to achieve a varying degree of gender euphoria). If the same were said for transracial people, it'd be different, but it's not. We don't have thousands of studies of people looking at their skin colour and thinking "this is wrong" and that being improved when they change their skin colour. One might be able to culturally, legally (through citizenship), and socially become an African, and in that sense you are 'an African' , but to become black is different entirely.
You can know that the pain you're experiencing is the pain of being a gender you're not when you start being the gender you are and the pain goes away.
On the othehand, the term gender is irreducible to physical facts. Gender is reliant on social and cultural factors when determining whether one is male, female or other. These factors are wholly unquantifiable and subjective. How can one distinguish themselves as absolutely “male”, “female” or “other” using subjective factors with it actually having coherent value? To say that something is “more X”, “less X”, “X but not Y” one needs to *demonstrate a method with which he/she/other can determine the value of X*.
I wonder why that could be? Maybe it's that gender is a personal experience/identifier that is shaped by one's own experience and perception no different from how any other aspects of their identity or personality are? They are no more 'subjective' than saying "I'm lazy." The lack of objectivity is meaningless. There's not supposed to be objectivity behind an identity, and what the identities mean are subject to change based on the opinion of the one identifying as such. You can't simultaneously argue that gender is subjective (which I agree with) and say that because sex chromosomes are objective and some experts view them as meaning something about sex or gender (which is a professional, subjective opinion) that being trans doesn't make sense. This explanation is probably bad (I am rushing), but I'll try to go into more detail later.
The issue here is it is impossible for “male”, “female” or “other” to supervene on “social” or “cultural” factors as *these factors are not reducible to any fact about the physical world*. Thus, to distinguish whether one is male, or female, or other, without any scientific (i.e biological) supervenience is absurd. Since sex supervenes on the empirical state of one’s somatic cells, it successfully supervenes on a grounded, quantifiable property. Thus, one can coherently make the distinction of “male” or “female” using the “sex” field.
Again, I don't disagree with you. You're talking about sex, and I am agreeing (to a certain degree) that it exists, but again, this doesn't have something to do with gender and the existence of physical sex doesn't make transgenderism illogical.
As mentioned above, the term sex is sufficient in explaining our understanding of biology without the need for gender. Thus, the term gender is a mere ontological burden, of which Occam's razor does not allow. Why postulate the term gender, when sex sufficiently covers the field.
Maybe it's the millions of people experiencing distress that their identity does not match with their body. You're assuming gender is designed to talk about biology in the first place, and honestly this seems hardly different from a slippery slope into biological essentialism.
"The thing which transgender ideologists do is that they create the term gender and assert that it takes precedence over the biologically grounded term, sex. However, if this is accepted, this can be done to any field of identification. Take the example I used above, that is, a genetically non-African asserting that they are in fact black. At the current stage, there is no construct version for the term race, but let’s postulate the term “rase”. Unlike it’s cousin, “rase” is not based on biology, it is completely in the mind and has no bearing on one's physical build. Would it then be sensible for me to assert that I, from this point on deny the factual term race, and opt to identify myself through rase. Also, I want everyone else to buy into this term rase, and pretend that I am whatever race that I want to be, PS not doing so denies me of my humanity. "
We quite literally don't. Sex and gender are different things and neither is a replacement for the other. If we could establish that someone could identify as a race that does not match their physical race, that they experience distress because of this, that it is alleviated significantly when they transition to another race, and that they can actually become a race that differs from the one they were at birth, then yeah, transracialism would make sense. The problem is that it doesn't meet any of these goalposts that transgenderism does.
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@drlebronski
They don't, but even if they do, here's a bunch of sources in case you ever need them.
"Patients Report High Satisfaction with Sex-Reassignment Surgery" https://www.issm.info/news/sex-health-headlines/patients-report-high-satisfaction-with-sex-reassignment-surgery/
"Trends in suicide death risk in transgender people: results from the
Amsterdam Cohort of Gender Dysphoria study (1972–2017)" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7317390/
"Psychosocial Adjustment to Sex Reassignment Surgery: A Qualitative
Examination and Personal Experiences of Six Transsexual Persons in
Croatia" https://www.hindawi.com/journals/tswj/2014/960745/
"Long-Term Follow-Up of Adults with Gender Identity Disorder" https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-014-0453-5
"Long-term Assessment of the Physical, Mental, and Sexual Health
among Transsexual Women" https://www.researchgate.net/publication/23553588_Long-term_Assessment_of_the_Physical_Mental_and_Sexual_Health_among_Transsexual_Women
"What does the scholarly research say about the effect of gender
transition on transgender well-being? " https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/
"Fact check: study shows transition makes trans people suicidal" https://www.transadvocate.com/fact-check-study-shows-transition-makes-trans-people-suicidal_n_15483.htm
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@Intelligence_06
Sorry, but conservatism is against my religion.
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@Greyparrot
Also here's this for good measure:
"A total of 291 injuries were recorded in 285 fights from nine weight divisions... Head injuries (67%) were the most common injuries reported with a rate of 34 per 100 AE"
Thanks for the pity and all, but we don't want it.
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@secularmerlin
@RationalMadman
You're absolutely correct and I think you raise an important point, RMM. Take India, for example, which uses plastic to make roads. It sure as hell lasts longer than normal roads, haha.
Merlin does bring up an equally important point, though. Even if we can and should recycle everything that we can, we can't recycle anything in a world where oil giants use recycling to deflect the blame when they'll do what's cheaper anyways no matter what: make new plastic.
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@drlebronski
There's a hyperlink button to the left of the undo button in the text editor.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
If there is a trans agenda, it's chaos >:3c
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@Greyparrot
@drlebronski
You're objectively incorrect.
- Whole body BMD is ~0.1 unit higher in Asian men than white men and ~0.1 unit higher in white men than Asian women. The difference is the same between race as by sex.
- Lumbar Spine BMD is ~0.125 units higher in black men than Asian men and ~0.025 units higher in black women than Asian men. Some women actually are superior to some men in this regard.
- Total Radius BMD is ~0.1 unit higher in black men than Asian men and TR BMD is equal between black women and Asian men.
If a 0.1 unit higher BMD constitutes unfairness, you may as well advocate to create separate leagues for blacks and Asians, and nonetheless the difference is an advantage of 8%. Even if that's not small enough, HRT (which is required to participate as a trans athlete) decreases haemoglobin in the body and thus decreases the ability of the body to transport oxygen while their skeletons require the same amount (1 & 2). Alongside the fact that the increased skeletal size/BMD of trans women leads to a greater oxygen requirement, it further mitigates if not removes an 8% advantage. Black men have drastically different skeletal structures to white men, but again, we aren't segregating by race and we shouldn't start either.
Fallon Fox went undefeated for 3 amateur fights and 2 professional fights as a male fighter and won all 5 in the first round. She was delivered her only loss and only won 1 of 4 fights in the first round as a female fighter. Skull fractures aren't uncommon in MMA.
I'm not gonna bother talking about how the claims about transition and transition satisfaction are painfully incorrect. Wylted taught me that it wasn't worth wasting my time doing that, but I'll just leave this blatant non sequitur here:
Conversion therapy doesn't work at ALL for gays but absolutely works often for trans considering the high suicide rates along with a plethora of tragic surgery regret stories.
At least try to hide the transphobia?
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@secularmerlin
Good post OP. Retweet.
If only your words would resonate with policy makers deciding that disabled people who cannot work don't deserve to have the same quality of life afforded to them as is afforded to others...
If only your words would resonate with policy makers deciding that disabled people who cannot work don't deserve to have the same quality of life afforded to them as is afforded to others...
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@gugigor
Just saw this now, but also I do have to say, were it not for creating that doc, I would've given the win to Undefeatable. At face value, con presents so much poor quality or outright incorrect/irrelevant claims, but within the argument there was enough substance of good quality that pro failed to defeat while failing to defend their own arguments.
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@secularmerlin
@drlebronski
Well, I believe he's referring to throwing it into outer space and not just the atmosphere. If it were to orbit our planet along with all the satellites, then it'd be an incredibly poor idea.
Nonetheless, yeah. It'd be energy inefficient as hell, but it's an option if tech progresses and we have no other choice.
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@drlebronski
I guess boiling it down would be the answer from me. Like, take your example of the death penalty.
What's an argument I intend to make if I'm against the death penalty? Maybe something about how it doesn't discourage crime. What do I need to find to prove that? Well, I'd need to find data on criminal trends across similar states where one has implemented the death penalty and the others haven't. I'd need to take the point when the death penalty was introduced and see how the trend of criminal activity is different from similar states that have not implemented the death penalty. Rinse and repeat a few times with different states.
An easy way to save time is just to, instead of googling blindly, just ask "What is it that I actually need to find?" and then looking for that exact info and that's it. At least, barring the times you have no choice but to analyze or make the data yourself (but out of over a hundred citations since I joined the site I've maybe only done that twice).
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@oromagi
Oh, and I forgot to mention oromagi as well in the above post. It seems he could also use this.
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@Lemming
@drlebronski
https://unpaywall.org/welcome Allow me to introduce you both to unpaywall! Possibly the best extension ever.
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