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@disgusted
Is it reasonable to believe the Bible is the Word of God = Yes!Since it's your claim that god did not say let there be light what do you contend he did say? The word of god is lies, how does that work?
Every day you make up a bunch more carp and misrepresent my belief in every way you can think of.
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@3RU7AL
The Jesus was a real, historical human being.The (historically verifiable) prophecies of the Jewish and Christian scriptures are 100% true.Neither of these things lend the slightest credibility to either the Jewish or Christian religious beliefs.In the exact same way,Gilgamesh was a real, historical human being.The (historically verifiable) events and prophecies of the Epic of Gilgamesh are 100% true.Neither of these things lend the slightest credibility to the ancient Sumerian religious beliefs.
Is it reasonable to believe Jesus was a historical Person based on the evidence available = Yes!
Is it reasonable to believe God is our Creator = Yes!
Is it reasonable to believe the Bible is the Word of God = Yes!
Is it reasonable to believe in Jesus = Yes!
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@disgusted
Bald assertions with no proof as the normal standard operating procedure.Because I'm telling you that your beliefs are erroneous and I have given you an abundance of your evidence for proof.
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@disgusted
Finish what? Answer that question first.And I always overlook this one. Whatever happened to the flood Daniel claimed would finish it all?
26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.
How was Daniel addressing?
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@keithprosser
They don't appear in the prophesy!
Exactly. Asimov's don't fit the prophecy whereas the others do.
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@keithprosser
Retrning to Damiel, the interpretation you favour is not the only one that can fit the text. i reject that interpreation because it relies on supernatural fore-knowledge. Why do you reject theinterpretation i prefer?
You're referring to the Asimov evaluation of prophecy concerning the Maccabean revolt time frame. It does not fit the text although I believe it is referenced in Daniel 10-11 it does not fit the Daniel 9:24-27 or Daniel 12 time frame. Where do you see the six specifics of Daniel 9:24 fulfilled then and neither Jerusalem nor the temple was destroyed at that time?
Tell me how these fit into that time frame:
1) Finish transgression,
2) Put an end to sin,
3) Atone for wickedness,
4) Bring in everlasting righteousness,
5) Seal up vision and prophecy,
6) Anoint the Most Holy Place.
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@keithprosser
Put another way, what evidence does a miraculous flood produce?Millions of fossils...over the earth. Mudslides and pressure burying these animals would cause them to fossilize.That is what a non-miraculous flood would do. The effects of a miraculous flood would be whatever God wanted them to be.
Okay.
The earth filled with water until there is no ground left.
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@keithprosser
If Noah's flood happened God must have intervened a lot more than is explicit in the text. It is obvious that sloths could not walk from South America to the Middle East and back on their own!
I agree that God intervened.
Whatever we know about normal floods does not have apply to miraculous floods, and that implies evidence is irrelevant.
Evidence like million, perhaps billions of fossils buried in rock layers all over the earth (to borrow the phrase)?
Would you expect an animal on the plains who dies to be fossilized? Now multiply that by millions of animals on the plain, in the valleys and on the mountains. A catastrophic event or events would explain how millions, perhaps billions of animals are encased as fossils.
What is necessary for an animal to be fossilized?
Put another way, what evidence does a miraculous flood produce?
Millions of fossils...over the earth. Mudslides and pressure burying these animals would cause them to fossilize.
Whatever seems to cast doubt on a flood is easily removed by supposing another miracle. There is no need to explain how sloths, lemurs or koalas found their way home home - that can be shrugged off as just part of the miracle.
Pangaea, then the hypothetical continents of Gondwanaland and Laurasia are one explanation (or plate tectonics). Do you believe in continental drift?
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@disgusted
Yes you said that the word sevens can be substituted for the word weeks meaning that 70 weeks = 70 sevens and still equals a year and a half. You then change weeks to years which are never mentioned, you have created your own alleged prophesy and even that doesn't work. There is nothing logical about concocting your own prophesy out of thin air and then claiming that it means the original prophesy is fulfilled it's simply dishonest and dishonesty is the hallmark of of your beliefs and I've been proving that for years.
Why is this not on your Prophecy thread???
Many Jewish and Gentile scholars recognize the period as 490 years. How you choose to see it is up to you. The Hebrew word for "week" is different than the one used for "seven," as I pointed out earlier. In Daniel 9:24 I am told by those who read and speak Hebrew that the word is seven, not week. But what is a week? It is seven days.
How you get a week and a half from the passage is beyond reason. But one thing is certain, it is done by ignoring the rest of the passage and the greater context plus the meaning the word. Daniel is told the period will start with the issuing of the decree to rebuild and end with its once again destruction.
The prophecy works when you understand that the city and temple will be destroyed at the end of this period of time. It works if you understand that Daniel's people are a Mosaic Covenant people. It works if you understand that the Anointed One is Jesus. It works if what is alleged is true, that Ptolemy based his understanding on a faulty chronology.
What you have been proving to me for years is that you have a bias, a hatred for the God you deny, and for those who believe in Him, and an agenda that at times is myopic. You have proved that you will not engage for the most part, except in a negative, not constructive way.
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@disgusted
Continued,
I lived in Africa. I was born there. My mother was born in South Africa and I have lived there too. I have seen the corruption there. I have seen the power-hungry madness and the greed at the expense of others in socialist regime after regime throughout Africa. I? have seen the consequences of social Darwinism around the world; the killing employed by atheistic and socialistic regimes around the world, and IMO, the same kind of socialism that others practice and push in the vitriol and leftist hatred and ideology are also displayed even on these threads.
I see what is happening in your country with this leftist insanity, the censorship and blackballing of everything conservative every day by a radical leftist agenda that will leave your country worse off if it continued to be unaddressed. I see the dishonesty in the media that has become a lying arm of the Democrat Party that pushes propaganda 24/7. I see how your court system, your justice system, your institutions of higher learning, your arts and entertainment, your media, your social media, all support this liberal agenda that cripples countries and makes them less free. I see the liberal agenda taking over on the coasts and Great Lakes where it penetrates the institutions mentioned. And what are the most susceptible victims of American society if not the youth who have not learned the skills to understand the indoctrination taking place?
IMO, the Democrat Party, to a large extent, is a godless party. It, generally speaking, has no vision, no wisdom, no mercy, just a craving for power to push its standards of oppression on others. It suppresses the freedom of speech of those who oppose it and I watch it every day, the hatred and lies it spreads in its propaganda. Today, for instance, it is calling the President a racist, a divider, a "Grand Wizard" while the truth of the matter is that these Democrats are the ones who are dividing, who are the haters, greedy for power. They show malice in their eyes which blaze with anger (watch their eyes when they speak - i.e., Adam Schiff, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Cory Booker, Chuck Schumer, Maxine Waters) as they manipulate every situation to their gain. They are masters of manipulation and deception. There is no compassion there, no understanding, just an appeal to demonize as a political weapon. The Democrats use the media as its Gestapo to hunt and villainize all those who oppose it. It makes up fictions that are so outrageously believed by their flock. It promotes and politically activates the base with mass movements sponsored by big money liberalists who have their hand of control in the pie of most aspects of your economy, including social media companies. Your country is on the precipice. There is a fight currently taking place that will determine which way your country swings but, generally speaking, it seems to me to be controlled largely by the Democrats who are the more corrupt and who have led the masses to groupthink, like sheep to the slaughter. What stupidity, IMO.
If you want to see what happens to a society that rejects God and follows its own way then look what happened to Old Covenant Israel as an example.
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@disgusted
BTW your god is quite good at looking after white middle class Americans like you, as you've claimed, but he is seriously lacking when it comes to starving children it's just like he doesn't give a fuck or he doesn't exist.
Thanks for your opinion. Now I will give you mine.
I am not American.
It is humans who live against God that create these hardships in their suppression of the truth of God, thus God gives them over to their sins to do what should not be done. You witness what happens when humanity refuses to do what God has commanded is good, to love one another and consider their best interest.
When people and nations turn against God or ignore Him, He gives them over to their sins to let them understand what their sins lead to. They get what they desire. He lets them witness what living apart from God results in. He blesses nations who turn to Him like He blessed Israel while they were obedient.
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them...
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts...
28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Notice verse 24, 26, and 28. What do they have in common? Because they do not want to retain their knowledge in God He gives them over to the desire of their hearts, to do what ought not to be done. In forgetting Him evil results - humanities inhumanity to one another.
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@disgusted
Supplying three passages unrelated to the alleged prophesy of Daniel is supposed to convince who of what and there is no mention of 490,000yrs. Please try very hard to stick to the subject at hand.
The Bible is its own interpreter. That is to say, the explanation is found within its pages. Daniel, in Daniel 9:1-23 is concerned with the breaking of the covenant Israel made with God and the consequences, the seventy years of captivity.
2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, according to the word of the Lord given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years.
4 I prayed to the Lord my God and confessed:
“Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of love with those who love him and keep his commandments, 5 we have sinned and done wrong. We have been wicked and have rebelled; we have turned away from your commands and laws. 6 We have not listened to your servants the prophets, who spoke in your name to our kings, our princes and our ancestors, and to all the people of the land.
7 “Lord, you are righteous, but this day we are covered with shame—the people of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, both near and far, in all the countries where you have scattered us because of our unfaithfulness to you. 8 We and our kings, our princes and our ancestors are covered with shame, Lord, because we have sinned against you...
11 All Israel has transgressed your law and turned away, refusing to obey you.7 “Lord, you are righteous, but this day we are covered with shame—the people of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, both near and far, in all the countries where you have scattered us because of our unfaithfulness to you. 8 We and our kings, our princes and our ancestors are covered with shame, Lord, because we have sinned against you...
“Therefore the curses and sworn judgments written in the Law of Moses, the servant of God, have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against you. 12 You have fulfilled the words spoken against us and against our rulers by bringing on us great disaster. Under the whole heaven nothing has ever been done like what has been done to Jerusalem. 13 Just as it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come on us, yet we have not sought the favor of the Lord our God by turning from our sins and giving attention to your truth. 14 The Lorddid not hesitate to bring the disaster on us, for the Lord our God is righteous in everything he does; yet we have not obeyed him...
The Seventy “Sevens”
20 While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the Lord my God for his holy hill— 21 while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice. 22 He instructed me and said to me, “Daniel, I have now come to give you insight and understanding. 23 As soon as you began to pray,a word went out, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed. Therefore, consider the word and understand the vision:
24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.
Thus, God is telling Daniel what will happen to His people in latter years. Just as in Daniel 9:2 (they are in captivity for their sin for seventy years) there will be another judgment that will happen, starting with the decree by Cyrus to rebuild the city and ending by finishing the transgression of the people (in another judgment) and putting an end to sin (no more sacrifices for sin). Thus, just like the present judgment is seventy years, God will place another judgment upon them that will last seventy times seven years.
18 If also after these things you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
19 I will also break down your pride of power
What is their "pride of power?" It is their relationship with God.
7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”
God will break the covenant He made with them and create a new and better covenant after this period is complete.
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@disgusted
A week is SEVEN days. Thus seventy times (one week) seven.You mean 490 days, well done you. No matter what lie you tell, the alleged prophesy says 70 weeks and therefore is a failed "prophesy"
No, I already explained to you that Israel missed a number of Sabbath rests of the land, so everyone missed equalled a year in captivity, hence they were in exile seventy years, per Jeremiah and others, and God would increase the time in exile to 490 years for their future disobedience (70 X 7).
Leviticus 26:17-19 (NASB)
17 I will set My face against you so that you will be struck down before your enemies; and those who hate you will rule over you, and you
will flee when no one is pursuing you.
18 If also after these things you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
19 I will also break down your pride of power; I will also make your sky like iron and your earth like bronze.
11 This whole country will become a desolate wasteland, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years.
Fact, they were carried away to Babylon because of their sins for seventy years.
2 Chronicles 36:20-21 (NASB)
20 Those who had escaped from the sword he carried away to Babylon; and they were servants to him and to his sons until the rule of the kingdom of Persia, 21 to fulfill the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its sabbaths. All the days of its desolation it kept sabbath until seventy years were complete.
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@disgusted
I don't argue about your invisible friend, I point out how ridiculous your beliefs are and why. You have an alleged prophesy that uses weeks as a time frame and you claim that if you change weeks to years and then multiply that by another factor then the prophesy is fulfilled and you are completely unaware that you are no longer discussing your alleged prophesy, you are discussing a fiction of your own creation.
The reference of the seventy sevens has been explained to you, adequately. It is a logical explanation that you do not want to hear or accept.
Are the dinosaurs already in heaven? prophesy, you are discussing a fiction of your own creation.Are the dinosaurs already in heaven?
I have no idea.
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@3RU7AL
If you took a very very old history book, and then some ancient scribe added a bunch of unverifiable details about gods, this would not lend any credibility to the unverifiable details about the gods. You know this.It depends on how unified the accounts and details are to its confirmation, for a religious claim is a worldview. How does the worldview make sense of life?Historical credibility does not lend credibility to unverifiable claims.
Many of the claims are verified, such as the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in AD 70, per many OT warnings of just that.
Look, if there was only "one family of survivors" from this legendary flood, it would make sense that only one version of it would survive.No, not necessarily. As the family multiplied and settled in other areas over generations the account would become corrupted by some or all. The biblical account does not claim it is corrupted but a true account because its source is God.On the one hand you seem to be suggesting that stories become corrupted over time.And on the other hand you seem to be suggesting that the oldest version of the story is the least accurate.
My belief is that the oldest account of the Flood is the biblical account although that cannot be proven from the historical record. But I believe it is the account that the others stem from, plus I believe it is accurate and the others are copycats and do not represent the true account although many do have truth in them. However, the biblical flood is not what we verify from history or prophecy.
But you're missing the point. Just because we can verify there was some sort of flood in that area around that time does not mean "gods are real".Again, it is just one line of evidence that points to God. That is the point.Unverifiable claims are neither scientific nor logical "evidence", no matter how old they might be.
What we would expect to find from a worldwide flood we find, millions of fossils buried in rock layers all over the earth (to borrow a phrase). How they are interpreted is another matter.
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@disgusted
Oh Pascal you are just so frightened, I'm not because when I die your fairy tales will remain just that, fairy tales.
Your choice to believe what you will. Either this life is all ultimately meaningless no matter what meaning you choose to give it now or you will be found wrong. There is no point in discussing something or should I say Someone you choose not to believe in yet you constantly argue against (the irony of it all).
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@3RU7AL
If you took a very very old history book, and then some ancient scribe added a bunch of unverifiable details about gods, this would not lend any credibility to the unverifiable details about the gods. You know this.You seem to think that the argument for God is contained in one bucket so that when you establish a leak you lose all the water. History (His Story) is just one aspect of the argument and worldview, just like your atheistic system of belief is built on many different ideas, but core beliefs sustain it. The credibility is from the whole system. When you realize there is a leak in one bucket and you are losing water you forget that there is a network of buckets underneath that catches the water.What I'm saying is that, in the same way that you can believe some historical events in The Epic of Gilgamesh, and yet, you do not believe every single word, especially the references to the gods.
I take it "you" is generic, not specific. I trust the whole Bible as a revelation from God although I realize there is a difficulty in understanding what the meaning was to the culture of the day in our day. The audience of address would not have the same understanding (I would argue a greater understanding) of many of the things we do today. Our cultures are radically different.
In the same way, I can believe some historical events in what you might call "the holy scriptures" but that does not mean I believe every single word, especially the references to the gods.
That is again a difference between you and me. I do not believe in any other god, however.
Historical The Jesus =/= gods.Historical Joseph Smith =/= The Angel Moroni.Historical Lafayette Ronald Hubbard =/= XenuThe examples are not equitable. Where did any of these others claim to be God or where did they give proof? Where did they claim to rise from the dead or claim to fulfill numerous prophecies?Just because these people lived and were presumably sincere, does not lend any credibility to their claims about gods, prima facie.
That is your judgment, not mine. Simon Greenleaf, who wrote a text on evidence used in courts of law considered their claims so credible that he became a Christian. He discussed his view in a book he wrote, The Testimony of the Evangelists, Examined by the Rules of Evidence Administered in Courts of Justice. While that means nothing to you and you can chalk it up to a logical fallacy, he was an expert in what constitutes evidence.
Just because these people made claims that were somewhat different than The Jesus, does not lend any particular claim about gods either more or less credibility.
They never made the claim to be God, nor were their tombs said to be found empty, nor did their followers claim their leader had risen from the dead, nor did Jesus' followers disavow the claim when faced with death according to tradition. These people did not change the world with their teaching. Their beliefs have not filled the world with their message. The Gospel of Jesus Christ has.
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@disgusted
The gamble you take.Not my imagination, reality. Everything in your book is the product of the IPSS.
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@3RU7AL
"Historically accurate" =/= 100% true.It gives credibility to the biblical claims. They are reasonable to believe. If they are truthful on one thing why not on others when the evidence points to other information as reasonable. It is just one confirmation but it shows the Bible can be trusted regarding history. If I told you I saw someone putting a body in your trunk and others back up the claim then you open the trunk and find a body there, you would be more inclined to believe me when I described the person who did this.If you took a very very old history book, and then some ancient scribe added a bunch of unverifiable details about gods, this would not lend any credibility to the unverifiable details about the gods. You know this.
It depends on how unified the accounts and details are to its confirmation, for a religious claim is a worldview. How does the worldview make sense of life?
That (Gilgamesh) was written down thousands of years before Abraham was even born. And I'm sure you agree that the age of a lie does not make it true.I'm not following your connection between Abraham and the Flood?There are many accounts of a worldwide flood in ancient folklore. It means many people believed in such a flood. If there were so many it stands to reason that one belief or one account set in motion others since a worldwide flood would have eliminated and decimated humanity.Look, if there was only "one family of survivors" from this legendary flood, it would make sense that only one version of it would survive.
No, not necessarily. As the family multiplied and settled in other areas over generations the account would become corrupted by some or all. The biblical account does not claim it is corrupted but a true account because its source is God.
But you're missing the point. Just because we can verify there was some sort of flood in that area around that time does not mean "gods are real".
Again, it is just one line of evidence that points to God. That is the point.
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@3RU7AL
That (Gilgamesh) was written down thousands of years before Abraham was even born. And I'm sure you agree that the age of a lie does not make it true.I'm not following your connection between Abraham and the Flood?There are many accounts of a worldwide flood in ancient folklore. It means many people believed in such a flood. If there were so many it stands to reason that one belief or one account set in motion others since a worldwide flood would have eliminated and decimated humanity.Look, if there was only "one family of survivors" from this legendary flood, it would make sense that only one version of it would survive.But you're missing the point. Just because we can verify there was some sort of flood in that area around that time does not mean "gods are real".
It would be another confirmation that points towards the claim though, wouldn't it?
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@3RU7AL
"Historically accurate" =/= 100% true.It gives credibility to the biblical claims. They are reasonable to believe. If they are truthful on one thing why not on others when the evidence points to other information as reasonable. It is just one confirmation but it shows the Bible can be trusted regarding history. If I told you I saw someone putting a body in your trunk and others back up the claim then you open the trunk and find a body there, you would be more inclined to believe me when I described the person who did this.If you took a very very old history book, and then some ancient scribe added a bunch of unverifiable details about gods, this would not lend any credibility to the unverifiable details about the gods. You know this.
You seem to think that the argument for God is contained in one bucket so that when you establish a leak you lose all the water. History (His Story) is just one aspect of the argument and worldview, just like your atheistic system of belief is built on many different ideas, but core beliefs sustain it. The credibility is from the whole system. When you realize there is a leak in one bucket and you are losing water you forget that there is a network of buckets underneath that catches the water.
"Historically accurate" = The Jesus is a historical figure.Your point?Historical The Jesus =/= gods.Historical Joseph Smith =/= The Angel Moroni.Historical Lafayette Ronald Hubbard =/= Xenu
The examples are not equitable. Where did any of these others claim to be God or where did they give proof? Where did they claim to rise from the dead or claim to fulfill numerous prophecies?
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@3RU7AL
It gives evidence of the reasonableness of it since if it is accurate on history then why is it not accurate on God?In the same way that you can believe there was a great flood in the Epic of Gilgamesh, but you don't believe that means Ishtar is a goddess.Anu, the god of gods, agreed that their labour was too great. His son Enki, or Ea, proposed to create man to bear the labour, and so, with the help of his half-sister Ninki, he did. A god was put to death, and his body and blood was mixed with clay. From that material the first human being was created, in likeness to the gods. [LINK]
Again. all this proves is that one borrowed from the other. Since you have records that are earlier you believe that the biblical record is the later record. As I said before, this is not necessarily the case. These accounts could very well have been corrupted and then written down and the biblical account makes many claims that can be backed up in its revelation. Back up these other claims to the same degree.
The Bible does not depend on historical verification alone. There are many other lines of reason. Considering the number of authors claiming to speak from God and their consistent themes and unity through centuries is just one such line of reason apart from history and prophecy. As I mentioned, every OT writing has a typology of Jesus Christ that cannot easily be explained away because of the details.If there were 100 different sources that were internally consistent, logically and stylistically, that claimed, for example, "Anu, the god of gods, agreed that their labour was too great. His son Enki, or Ea, proposed to create man to bear the labour, and so, with the help of his half-sister Ninki, he did. A god was put to death, and his body and blood was mixed with clay. From that material the first human being was created, in likeness to the gods." [LINK]The stylistic and logical coherence would mean nothing to you.
It would mean that one account or some parts of an account may very well be accurate, but the rest corrupted since the contradictions. You assume the Epic came first because it predates the biblical writings. What it does is avoids the biblical prophecies by a tangent on the Flood. The Flood is an account, not prophecy.
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@3RU7AL
If you grant the biblical texts are accurate then you need to show they are not a revelation from God for they make this claim thousands of times in that they say, "the LORD said," "God spoke...," "the word of the LORD...," and so on."Historically accurate" =/= 100% true.
It gives credibility to the biblical claims. They are reasonable to believe. If they are truthful on one thing why not on others when the evidence points to other information as reasonable. It is just one confirmation but it shows the Bible can be trusted regarding history. If I told you I saw someone putting a body in your trunk and others back up the claim then you open the trunk and find a body there, you would be more inclined to believe me when I described the person who did this.
If you grant historical accuracy then you add additional evidence to the claim that Jesus was a real, true to life Person, which contradicts what you said earlier about Him as not real."Historically accurate" = The Jesus is a historical figure.
Your point?
First, what do you see as accurate about the Epic of Gilgamesh so we can compare the claims? They both state a worldwide flood. I agree that they are both historical artifacts but I question the accuracy of the Epic of Gilgamesh as being the source of the biblical accounts. I see the Epic of Gilgamesh as a somewhat hearsay of the biblical accounts that Moses, inspired by God, wrote down giving the true account. - https://www.compellingtruth.org/Gilgamesh-flood.htmlThat was written down thousands of years before Abraham was even born. And I'm sure you agree that the age of a lie does not make it true.
I'm not following your connection between Abraham and the Flood?
There are many accounts of a worldwide flood in ancient folklore. It means many people believed in such a flood. If there were so many it stands to reason that one belief or one account set in motion others since a worldwide flood would have eliminated and decimated humanity.
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@3RU7AL
And trying to argue about any of them is the epistemological equivalent of rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic.I'm willing to do that if you want to supply the counter argument?My "counter argument" is simply granting you "the text is historically accurate".
If you grant the biblical texts are accurate then you need to show they are not a revelation from God for they make this claim thousands of times in that they say, "the LORD said," "God spoke...," "the word of the LORD...," and so on.
And even "the gospels" that you highlighted, if taken as historically authentic, they are, at most, accurate accounts of what the authors themselves believed to be true at the time. The Jesus said, "this and that and some other thing" and sure, maybe that person existed and maybe they even said that stuff, but that doesn't make any supernatural claims any more likely to be true than if someone said that same stuff today.And what do you have from the early historical record that counter them?My "counter argument" is simply granting you "the text is historically accurate".
If you grant historical accuracy then you add additional evidence to the claim that Jesus was a real, true to life Person, which contradicts what you said earlier about Him as not real.
All of the "authentication" claims that supposedly fit the Jewish and Christian writings also apply equally well to the Epic of Gilgamesh.And the Epic of Gilgamesh is significantly older and better authenticated. The earliest tablets that record the Epic of Gilgamesh are estimated to be from about 3000 BCE. The oldest surviving record of the Jewish stories are from about 300 BCE.The question is which borrowed from the other since Moses states that the written genealogical records were handed down and he compiled them into the Torah.I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter who borrowed from whom, if you agree that they are BOTH historically accurate.
First, what do you see as accurate about the Epic of Gilgamesh so we can compare the claims? They both state a worldwide flood. I agree that they are both historical artifacts but I question the accuracy of the Epic of Gilgamesh as being the source of the biblical accounts. I see the Epic of Gilgamesh as a somewhat hearsay of the biblical accounts that Moses, inspired by God, wrote down giving the true account.
Christians seem to understand that the Epic of Gilgamesh is older than both Judaism and Christianity and that Gilgamesh himself was very likely a historical king. And it seems like it would be difficult for them to deny the accounts that "the first man was made of mud" and "the gods sent a great flood because the humans displeased them" and "one of the gods decided to warn one of their followers about the flood before it happened" without being incredulous about those same exact stories written in their own special books.But even then, a Christian has the impulse to believe that even if some of that stuff is true, that doesn't mean the ancient Sumerian gods were "real".Some Christians act on impulse, others have investigated the evidence and data. And the non-Christian has the impulse to believe that some of the biblical accounts are untrue.Historical accuracy does not "prove" supernatural claims.
It gives evidence of the reasonableness of it since if it is accurate on history then why is it not accurate on God?
And so, any Jewish or Christian arguments attempting to claim "historical accuracy" of their ancient texts are absolutely and utterly moot.No, they are not. It is reasonable and logical evidence.Historical accuracy does not "prove" supernatural claims.
The Bible does not depend on historical verification alone. There are many other lines of reason. Considering the number of authors claiming to speak from God and their consistent themes and unity through centuries is just one such line of reason apart from history and prophecy. As I mentioned, every OT writing has a typology of Jesus Christ that cannot easily be explained away because of the details.
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@keithprosser
I say its not a prophesy at all.I could copy and paste from here, but I will link to it instead.It's not the last word in scholarship, but it is very readable. The section on Daniel and the 'seventy weeks' is on page 612.
It concerns Daniel 11 and 12. There is no way that Daniel 2:44, 9:24-27, or 12 refers to the time of "Ptolemy III, who reigned from 246 to 221 b.c."
I already addressed the argument regarding Daniel and the scenario that Daniel was written before Antiochus III or IV, not after. I also see a distinction between the prophecy about Antiochus and the prophecy about the end times. The Bible uses various terms for the end of the Mosaic covenant such as the last days, latter times, the day of wrath, the day of vengeance, the end of the age, etc. Daniel 9:24 says that with the destruction of the city and temple everlasting righteousness would be established. The Mosaic covenant could never establish everlasting righteousness. Righteousness was only as good as the next time Israel sinned, then another sin offering to atone for the people's sins had to be offered.
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@disgusted
Daniel 9:24 (NIV)
24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness,to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.Is still seventy weeks, a year and a half.
A week is SEVEN days. Thus seventy times (one week) seven.
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@disgusted
(24) Seventy septets [of years] have been decreed on your people and the city of your Sanctuary [for you] to make an end of transgression, to atone for sin and to wipe away iniquity, to bring about universal justice, to confirm the visions and the prophets and to anoint the Most Holy Place.
"The history of the Persian Achæmenid period as recorded in the Scriptures is fragmented and obscure, and is impossible to decipher by reference to the Scriptural accounts alone. Even the "traditional" Hebrew chronology, preserved in the Talmuds and other ancient Hebrew writings such as the Midrashic history Séder Olam, doesn't help much because, being an orally-transmitted tradition, it sadly became somewhat garbled through telling and re-telling. However, thanks to Claudius Ptolemæus's Κανον Βασιλεον ("Canon of the Kings" or "Royal Canon") and the work of modern archæologists and secular historians, we do have a fair idea of what was actually happening during that period, and a reasonably reliable time-line."
Using the Ptolemaic chronology the dates do not line up with Cyrus' issuing of the decree, but as laid out by Philip Mauro in his work, Seventy Weeks:
"Concerning the dates given in Ptolemy's table of Persian Kings, Anstey says: "They rest upon calculations or guesses made by Eratosthenes, and on certain vague floating traditions, in accordance with which the period of the Persian Empire was mapped out as a period of 205 years." And he shows, by a great variety of proofs taken entirely from the Scriptures, that the period which Ptolemy assigns to the Persian Empire is about eighty years too long. It follows that all who adopt Ptolemy's chronology, or any system based upon it (as all modern chronologists prior to Anstey do) would inevitably be led far astray. It is impossible to make the real Bible-events agree, within 80 years, with the mistaken chronology of Ptolemy. This single fact makes many modern books on Daniel utterly worthless, so far as their chronology is concerned; and the chronology is the main thing.
CONCERNING ECLIPSES
An attempt has been made to call Astronomy to the aid of the defective Chronology of Ptolemy, by utilizing certain incidental references, contained in fragmentary historical records, to eclipses of the sun or moon. But such references are of no value whatever for the purpose, seeing that it is impossible to determine, in any given case, which one of a number of eclipses- within say fifty or a hundred years- was the one referred to. For example, one of the clearest of these historical references is that of the "Eclipse of Thales," mentioned by Herodotous. This eclipse is located by one astronomer as occurring in 625 B. C.; by another as late as 585 B. C. (a difference of 40 years); and by others at different dates in between (Anstey, p. 286).
We see then first that the method adopted in current expositions of the Seventy Weeks prophecy is fundamentally wrong; and second that the chronological system on which they are all based is formed largely by guesswork, and is certainly very wide of the mark as regards the length of the Persian Empire.
An attempt has been made to call Astronomy to the aid of the defective Chronology of Ptolemy, by utilizing certain incidental references, contained in fragmentary historical records, to eclipses of the sun or moon. But such references are of no value whatever for the purpose, seeing that it is impossible to determine, in any given case, which one of a number of eclipses- within say fifty or a hundred years- was the one referred to. For example, one of the clearest of these historical references is that of the "Eclipse of Thales," mentioned by Herodotous. This eclipse is located by one astronomer as occurring in 625 B. C.; by another as late as 585 B. C. (a difference of 40 years); and by others at different dates in between (Anstey, p. 286).
We see then first that the method adopted in current expositions of the Seventy Weeks prophecy is fundamentally wrong; and second that the chronological system on which they are all based is formed largely by guesswork, and is certainly very wide of the mark as regards the length of the Persian Empire.
I already laid out how Anstey arrived at the biblical timeline in an earlier post that you failed to comment upon.
24Seventy weeks [of years] have been decreed upon your people and upon the city of your Sanctuary to terminate the transgression and to end sin, and to expiate iniquity, and to bring eternal righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies.No years are mentioned in the prophesy and so it is a failed prophesy.
No, for if Anstey's account is true then the dates point to the time of Jesus. But some argue the prophecy does not have to line up exactly to 490 years. The start and end dates would be known by the issuing of the decree by Cyrus and the destruction of the city and temple.
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@disgusted
“Seventy ‘sevens’ meaninglessSeventy septets [of years] No mention of yearsSeventy weeks [of years]No mention of yearsComplete failure.
Your argument is weak when even Jewish sites understand the reference as being 490 years. God judged the Jews with a seventy-year exile from the land with the Babylonian conquest, per the curses of Deuteronomy 28. Some understand this as a judgment from God for not obeying the Sabbath rest for the land.
Israel had apparently failed to observe the land’s one-year-in-seven sabbath for 490 years, so the term of the Babylonian captivity was set at 70 years to make up the deficit. 2 Chron. 36:21 says, “The land enjoyed its sabbath rests; all the time of its desolation it rested,
until the seventy years were completed in fulfillment of the word of the LORD spoken by Jeremiah.”
This is a reference to Jeremiah 25:11.
I see it as a multiple of the first 70-year exile because the people failed to heed the warning and per Leviticus 28:18.
Leviticus 26:17-19 (NASB)
17 I will set My face against you so that you will be struck down before your enemies; and those who hate you will rule over you, and you
will flee when no one is pursuing you.
18 If also after these things you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
19 I will also break down your pride of power; I will also make your sky like iron and your earth like bronze.
Fact, they were carried away to Babylon because of their sins for seventy years.
2 Chronicles 36:20-21 (NASB)
20 Those who had escaped from the sword he carried away to Babylon; and they were servants to him and to his sons until the rule of the kingdom of Persia, 21 to fulfill the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its sabbaths. All the days of its desolation it kept sabbath until seventy years were complete.
Fact, after their return from Babylon they continued to sin so God warned Daniel the punishment would be seven times more severe per Leviticus 26:18 the next time He judged them, per Daniel 9:24 - seventy sevens has been decreed for your people.
So, God is going to judge them again in the future for seventy years plus an additional multiple of seven times for their sin.
Here is what the failed prophesy actually says:Seventy weeks
I pointed out the distinction.
It depends on the TRANSLATION.
Daniel 9:24 (NIV)
24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.
24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.
So, just as God judged them for seventy years the next time He would judge them seven times seventy years.
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@disgusted
What you mean is the IPSS who created the bible and they are certainly not absolute nor objective, so you don't have such a base either. Your base is because you want to believe whatever you believe, totally subjective and absolutely not objective.(Ignorant, primitive superstitious savages)
In your imagination. Why would I accept it as reliable? You have clearly shown a bias and animosity. You only hear what you want to hear. I actually appreciated that you posted the thread on prophecy and I hope you will engage in the dialogue instead of offering barbs.
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@keithprosser
I have a pension and some money put aside for retirement.O ye of little faith! Have you not heard:
I see everything I have as from God.
Matt 6:34 Do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.I know - a cheap shot! :)Financial prudence was not a priority for Jesus and the Gospel writers because they believed and taught 'the end of the world was nigh', where 'nigh' could be mere months or even just days away. With that in mind such passages can have their plain and simple meaning. The young man can safely give his wealth away because it's only for a short time.Sophisticted readings such as "The teaching is one of allegiance, of who or what we put first." are required only because the world didn't end then!
Jesus and the gospel writers taught never taught the "end of the world" was near, just the end of the Mosaic covenant age. The Greek word for world
was kosmos, not anion.
GRK: συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος
NAS: and of the end of the age?
KJV: and of the end of the world?
INT: the completion of the age
The KJV wrongly translates the verse in a number of verses.
Please see point three in the link that follows...3. As the Jews distinguished הַזֶּה הָעולָם the time before the Messiah, and הַבָּא הַעולָם, the time after the advent of the Messiah (cf. Riehm, Lehrb. d. Hebraerbr., p. 204ff; (Schürer, § 29, 9)), so most of the N. T. writers distinguish ὁ αἰών οὗτος this age (also simply ὁ αἰών, Matthew 13:22; Mark 4:19 G L T Tr WH; ὁ ἐνεστὼς αἰών, Galatians 1:4; ὁ νῦν αἰών, 1 Timothy 6:17; (2 Timothy 4:10); Titus 2:12), the time before the appointed return or truly Messianic advent of Christ (i. e., the παρουσία, which see), the period of instability, weakness, impiety, wickedness, calamity, misery — and αἰών μέλλων the future age...
Kosmos - https://biblehub.com/greek/2889.htm
Jesus gave a rough idea to His disciples of when the end of the age would be and He warned those who doubted of the judgment that was coming and it was within their generation ("this generation") which was a period of 40 years. The disciples would not know the day or hour of His coming in judgment on Isreal but they would know when the "day" or time was close by the signs He gave them to watch for.
Sophisticted readings such as "The teaching is one of allegiance, of who or what we put first." are required only because the world didn't end then!
Their world, the world of the Mosaic Covenant and their sacrificial system and temple worship ended within the generation. After their long relationship with God Jesus came to announce a new and better covenant for all those who would believe, thus the Old Covenant would have to be removed.
The word went out first to the Jew because Jesus came to His own before the Gospel went out into all the world. His message was one of both hope and judgment for them. That is why the one who announced His coming (John the Baptist) could say, "His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
The reason Jesus came to His own first was to bring salvation to those waiting for Him and to bring judgment for those who had turned against God and would not repent.
The reason Jesus came to His own first was to bring salvation to those waiting for Him and to bring judgment for those who had turned against God and would not repent.
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@disgusted
You've never given an answer, you have always run away.How about you answer.Tell us what your absolute and objective standards are.
The God revealed in the Bible is the standard. You have known my standard all along, so please do not play coy.
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@disgusted
Even Jewish sites recognize the 70 years as 70X7=490 yearsThere are no 70yrs mentioned in the prophesy, it mentions 70 weeks and is therefore a failed prophesy. There is no Leviticus mentioned in the prophesy. Once again here is the prophesy:24 Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, [j]to finish [k]transgression, and [l]to make an end of sins, and to [m]make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up vision and [n]prophecy, and to anoint [o]the most holy. 25 Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto [p]the anointed one, the prince, shall be [q]seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troublous times. 26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and [r]shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined. 27 And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the [s]oblation to cease; and [t]upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate.If you need to change anything about that then you prove the prophesy false.
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
7620. shabua
seven, week
Or shabuan {shaw-boo'-ah}; also (feminine) shbu.ah {sheb-oo-aw'}; properly, passive participle of shaba' as a denominative of sheba'; literal, sevened, i.e. A week (specifically, of years) -- seven, week.see HEBREW shaba'
So weeks is sometimes substituted in for sevens or "seventy sevens."
Daniel 9:24 (NIV)
24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness,to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.
According to Jews for Jesus, in the Hebrew text, the word is Shavuim, which means “sevens” as opposed to Shavuot, which means weeks.
(24) Seventy septets [of years] have been decreed on your people and the city of your Sanctuary [for you] to make an end of transgression, to atone for sin and to wipe away iniquity, to bring about universal justice, to confirm the visions and the prophets and to anoint the Most Holy Place.
24Seventy weeks [of years] have been decreed upon your people and upon the city of your Sanctuary to terminate the transgression and to end sin, and to expiate iniquity, and to bring eternal righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies.
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@disgusted
You already know my answer and it is a logical one.Tell us what your absolute and objective standards are.
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@janesix
You still need to eat.....
I don't see the Bible teaches that we should not work for our living but sponge off others. God understands we need to eat. We still have an obligation to look after ourselves.
Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men,
and we toil, working with our own hands; when we are reviled, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure;
For this purpose also I labor, striving according to His power, which mightily works within me.
nor did we eat anyone’s bread without paying for it, but with labor and hardship we kept working night and day so that we would not be a burden to any of you;
For even when we were with you, we used to give you this order: if anyone is not willing to work, then he is not to eat, either.
For we hear that some among you are leading an undisciplined life, doing no work at all, but acting like busybodies.
Now such persons we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to work in quiet fashion and eat their own bread.
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@Stronn
Curious about how you get "bad"?My reason for coming here is quite simple. Religion is a bad idea, and I oppose bad ideas.
Bad suggests there is a standard and if that standard is not absolute and objective it is relative and changing. Why is your idea and "better" than those of religionists? So establish your standard as something that I can trust in and not just your own personal opinion and preference. And if that is all it is (personal opinion) then why is what you believe good, because you are making a moral distinction?
While I agree with your surmise, for the most part, I see one religious teaching as standing out from the rest. So, I would stand right along side you with that statement, with one exception. And I believe my system of belief has what is necessary for religion yet I believe that those who deny God do not have a moral backbone to stand on.
You are begging the question of why what you believe is bad by your assertion above.
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@janesix
Who, then, is supposed to take care of my needs?
God! It is tough teaching but it goes deeper. Our life is fleeting. It goes fast. If you dedicate it on behalf of others, as Jesus did, God will look after you and supply you with your needs here on earth and greater rewards in heaven. I have seen this principle demonstrated by those who place others first.
If we all choose to do this , we are all "the poor". Who will take care of the poor then?
Or rich for we are doing what really counts. Riches can be measured in a number of ways. It does not have to mean monetary gain.
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@janesix
"You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
Context, context, context.
Matthew 19:16-30
The Rich Young Ruler
16 And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man *said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.
23 And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?” 26 And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
The Disciples’ Reward
27 Then Peter said to Him, “Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?” 28 And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last; and the last, first.
16 And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man *said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.
23 And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?” 26 And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
The Disciples’ Reward
27 Then Peter said to Him, “Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?” 28 And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last; and the last, first.
Mark 10:20-22 (NASB)
20 And he said to Him, “Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth up.” 21 Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, “One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22 But at these words he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property.
20 And he said to Him, “Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth up.” 21 Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, “One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22 But at these words he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property.
The teaching is one of allegiance, of who or what we put first. Although the rich young man lists a number of commands he does not list the one about idolatry. This young man had made an idol of money.
And the lesson goes further than this. It goes to the true meaning of life, to know God by putting Him first. The Commandments this young man listed were relational to other human beings, yet the first four Commandments deal with our relationship with God.
Exodus 20:3-8
3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing loving kindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.
8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.
What is an idol? The OT too often lists physical idols, but an idol is anything that you put in the place of God. The principle is that if you trust God He will look after your needs.
3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing loving kindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.
8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.
What is an idol? The OT too often lists physical idols, but an idol is anything that you put in the place of God. The principle is that if you trust God He will look after your needs.
Matthew 6:32-34 (NASB)
31 Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’ 32 For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
34 “So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
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@3RU7AL
And trying to argue about any of them is the epistemological equivalent of rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic.
I'm willing to do that if you want to supply the counter argument?
And even "the gospels" that you highlighted, if taken as historically authentic, they are, at most, accurate accounts of what the authors themselves believed to be true at the time. The Jesus said, "this and that and some other thing" and sure, maybe that person existed and maybe they even said that stuff, but that doesn't make any supernatural claims any more likely to be true than if someone said that same stuff today.
And what do you have from the early historical record that counter them?
All of the "authentication" claims that supposedly fit the Jewish and Christian writings also apply equally well to the Epic of Gilgamesh.And the Epic of Gilgamesh is significantly older and better authenticated. The earliest tablets that record the Epic of Gilgamesh are estimated to be from about 3000 BCE. The oldest surviving record of the Jewish stories are from about 300 BCE.
The question is which borrowed from the other since Moses states that the written genealogical records were handed down and he compiled them into the Torah.
Christians seem to understand that the Epic of Gilgamesh is older than both Judaism and Christianity and that Gilgamesh himself was very likely a historical king. And it seems like it would be difficult for them to deny the accounts that "the first man was made of mud" and "the gods sent a great flood because the humans displeased them" and "one of the gods decided to warn one of their followers about the flood before it happened" without being incredulous about those same exact stories written in their own special books.But even then, a Christian has the impulse to believe that even if some of that stuff is true, that doesn't mean the ancient Sumerian gods were "real".
Some Christians act on impulse, others have investigated the evidence and data. And the non-Christian has the impulse to believe that some of the biblical accounts are untrue.
And so, any Jewish or Christian arguments attempting to claim "historical accuracy" of their ancient texts are absolutely and utterly moot.
No, they are not. It is reasonable and logical evidence.
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@3RU7AL
A lot of people seem to get caught up in the claims that the Jesus was a really real, real actual flesh and blood human being, and "the flood" was a (pre)historical event and Daniel predicted some stuff.
You have left a lot to unpack.
When you say "A lot of people seem to get caught up in the claims that the Jesus was a really real, real actual flesh and blood human being" while this is true a lot also get caught up in the claims that He was not. So, what is reasonable to believe regarding the historical facts and data available? I would argue you choose to believe the less credible.
The Flood is a question for another time since it opens up another can of worms that is heavily disputed.
The first scenario has some merit to it for it is workable.
1. The 490 years are based on Leviticus 26:18.
2. Numbers 14:34 states a specific period of 40 years and alludes back to the 40 years spent in the desert where the whole generation perished except for a few, Joshua and Caleb and their families who believed God. Jesus also issued a period of forty years just before His death when He warned that generation. So from His crucifixion onwards, the period ticks down to AD 70 when the Old Covenant disappears. There are two facts main here that you cannot argue against, one that the city was destroyed, and two, that the Mosaic covenant God made with Israel regarding atonement and sin can no longer be met as specified in the Law.
There is another scenario that works if you want to apply the years literally to 490 years exactly. That is the one proposed by Philip Mauro in which he claimed, per Martin Anstey's chronology as opposed to Ptolemy's. I listed that one above.
But, if you take the 490 years, not as a precise and literal number, then you have a third scenario that fits the prophecy.
The period of 1260, 1290, and 1334 days can also be shown to fit the first-century very convincingly.
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@keithprosser
A masterly precis, PGA.So how do you respond to the charge that few people object to the techniques of higher criticism when they applied to other scriptures?
It would be foolish to object to all higher criticism. There are many, many truths there. I object to the fundamental starting premises much of the movement works on that miracles and anything supernatural is automatically dismissed in finding an explanation. IOW's, they dismiss the Bible can be God's revelation which eventually leads to reducing everything to man-made myths, a god of sheepherders, and to many the thought of Jesus as a myth or legend, not relevant to today.
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@keithprosser
Hi Keith, I'm not sure who you are addressing with this post since I did not receive a notification?
If the consensus was not that Daniel is late those sites wouldn't exist!
We all have a bias, that is why it is interesting to look at what and who influences people. I make a practice of doing that since I understand there is no neutrality. Ideas have consequences. Where you start is so often where you end up.
My searches so far have not revealed why the Alexander story is discounted, which is embarassing! But you'd only reject it anyway. But it is important and interesting so I will add it to my bucket list of research topics.
I have studied worldviews for perhaps thirty years (hard to say exactly when I became interested in that topic). Give me your scholars and I will examine their worldview. Liberal scholarship usually is the underlying issue. Since the 17th century, with German Higher Criticism (not that it or higher criticism is all bad of course) there has been an effort to look at the Bible as a human construct by many. Thus, the paradigm has changed. A big factor in the change was the Enlightenment (humanism) and Age of Reason (rationalism), along with Darwinism (evolution) that gave humans the idea that they were the measure of all things.
Once the Bible is looked at as human constructs (anti-supernaturalists) miracles and God are exchanged for solely manmade explanations by many. It is as simple as that. That ideology is imported into studying the text. Thus when God says without faith it is impossible to please Him because those who come to Him must believe He exists and rewards those who diligently seek Him, these German higher critics adopted a humanistic approach to the Bible that soon undermined the Bible. Thus, they started to doubt the signature of God on the Bible.
The historical-critical method assumes the autonomy of the human scientist from the Bible as the word of God. It assumes that one must start with the secular world as a norm for determining meaning and for deciding what has happened in the past. This method does not accept at face value the Bible as the Word of God. It would be unscientific and unhistorical to do so. Rather its claim to be the word of God and its statements claiming to report history (and finally its statements about theology) must be verified and accepted as one would accept a statement from the documents of any other ancient national people. Such a conception implies that the Bible has come about in the same manner as has any other piece of literature.
So, you and I look at the Bible, history, everything, from two different approaches and we look for our explanations with that supposition in mind. That is not to say that Christians do not examine evidence, we do. We interpret it differently than you do. We believe the evidence has its explanation in God since God is the maker of facts. You believe it has its explanation in your own thinking and the thinking of your experts about the past that confirm your worldview bias. You look at the evidence and discount what goes against your naturalistic point of view.
Some of the men who have been most distinguished as the leaders of the Higher Critical movement in Germany and Holland have been men who have no faith in the God of the Bible, and no faith in either the necessity or the possibility of a personal supernatural revelation. The men who have been the voices of the movement, of whom the great majority, less widely known and less influential, have been mere echoes; the men who manufactured the articles the others distributed, have been notoriously opposed to the miraculous...
Thus, the view developed that miracles were myth and legend and that prophecy was written into the text after the fact which led to the view held to this today regarding the Bible as a mythical book written solely by men.
Of the big names in the movement, some think Spinoza was the influence that set the ball rolling, and Eichhorn (the first to use the term "higher criticism") the first of the German higher critics. Then men like Friedrich Schleiermacher and Ludwig Feuerbach had a big influence on the movement.
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@disgusted
The prophesy of Daniel24 Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, [j]to finish [k]transgression, and [l]to make an end of sins, and to [m]make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up vision and [n]prophecy, and to anoint [o]the most holy. 25 Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto [p]the anointed one, the prince, shall be [q]seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troublous times. 26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and [r]shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined. 27 And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the [s]oblation to cease; and [t]upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate.Where is seven times written? And if a day is a thousand years why isn't it 490,000yrs predicted?
Seven or seventy?
Again, the concept of a multiple of seventy comes from Leviticus 26:18,
Leviticus 26:18 (NASB)
18 If also after these things you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
18 If also after these things you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
God had already hit Israel with a 70 years period of judgment as Jeremiah prophesied concerning Babylon (Jeremiah. 29:10). But because Israel did not hearken unto their God, He did as He promised in Leviticus 26:18, and issued a period of judgment of "seven times more" the seventy years prophesied by Jeremiah (70 x 7 = 490 years).
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@keithprosser
PS. The temple was not destroyed in 168BC.pps - the text doesn't say it was destroyed - it implies desecrated.Dan 9:27...And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolationThe principle sources are Josephus Antiquities of the Jews and 1 Maccabbees:1:57 On the fifteenth day of the month Casleu, in the hundred and forty-fifth year, king Antiochus set up the abominable idol of desolation upon the altar of God, and they built altars throughout all the cities of Juda round about:
Regarding Josephus:
Josephus mentions that Daniel’s prophecy regarding Alexander the Great were shown to the Greek general as he came toward Jerusalem in the 4th century BC, and that the illustrious commander was so impressed that he spared the holy city (Antiquities Xl, VIII, 3-5). The truth of this story is disputed, but it highlights Josephus’s view and therefore the Jewish view at the time, namely that Daniel was the author of the work and that it was completed long before the time of Alexander (332 BC), and therefore long before the Maccabees. Living much closer to the Maccabean era than us, Josephus knows nothing of a Maccabean origin for Daniel or any alternative author than the biblical Daniel.
Antiquities Xl, VIII, 5
"And when the Book of Daniel was showed him wherein Daniel declared that one of the Greeks should destroy the empire of the Persians, he supposed that himself was the person intended."
Josephus also wrote that no books were added to the Old Testament after the time of the Persian ruler Artaxerxes (464-424 B.C.) (Josephus,Against Apion 1.8).
"It is true, our history hath been written since Artaxerxes very particularly, but hath not been esteemed of the like authority with the former by our forefathers, because there hath not been an exact succession of prophets since that time; and how firmly we have given credit to these books of our own nation is evident by what we do;"
Josephus interpreted the desolation of the temple by Antiochus IV Epiphanes as the fulfillment of prophecies made by Daniel “according to Daniel’s vision and what he wrote many years before they came to pass” (Antiquities X.Xl.7).
***
26 Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”
***
Also,
The scholarship (witout quotes) that interprets Daniel in terms of conditions in the C2 BCE.
What does this mean? Should it read: "The scholarship (without quotes) that interprets Daniel in terms of conditions in the 2nd century BCE?"
What does without quotes mean? Does it mean that you don't know who the scholars are?
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@keithprosser
What "scholarship" are you referencing?The scholarship (witout quotes) that interprets Daniel in terms of conditions in the C2 BCE.
What does this mean?
That scolarship identifies the messiah in 9:26 as Onias III and the 'destruction' as the desecration of the temple in 168 BC.
And why do you think the prophecy is referring to Onias III?
PS. The temple was not destroyed in 168BC.
I confess I am not familir with the Ezekiel references - i will remedy that forthwith!
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@keithprosser
I'd hope that anyone who does spend a few hours googling will see what i posted is not the view of a few fanatical anti-religionists but a precis of mainstream scholarship - I consider myself boringly conventional!I suppose it all hinges on when Daniel was composed.
Since you give that Daniel was composed before the destruction of the temple, some 200 or so years before, the temple and city are still prophesied to be rebuilt and destroyed once again. We know that the Babylonians destroyed the first temple. The only other time a Jewish temple has been destroyed is AD 70. Thus, whether you want to look at the prophecy from a figurative/spiritual or literal timeframe the prophecy was fulfilled in AD 70.
What "scholarship" are you referencing?
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@disgusted
490 yearsThere is no 490yrs mentioned in the prophesy.
Again, it shows that you don't understand prophecy. Even Jewish sites recognize the 70 years as 70X7=490 years, per Leviticus 26:18.
To look further into the 70 week judgment period toward Israel, notice the number of years that the full 70 weeks amount up to: 490 years. That number might not seem significant unless you take into account the 7 times rule promised in the Torah of Moses that Daniel had just acknowledge they had broken. "And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins." - Leviticus 26:18
God had already hit Israel with a 70 years period of judgment as Jeremiah prophesied concerning Babylon (Jeremiah. 29:10). But because Israel did not hearken unto their God, He did as He promised in Leviticus 26:18, and issued a period of judgment of "seven times more" the seventy years prophesied by Jeremiah (70 x 7 = 490 years).
God had already hit Israel with a 70 years period of judgment as Jeremiah prophesied concerning Babylon (Jeremiah. 29:10). But because Israel did not hearken unto their God, He did as He promised in Leviticus 26:18, and issued a period of judgment of "seven times more" the seventy years prophesied by Jeremiah (70 x 7 = 490 years).
24 Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, [j]to finish [k]transgression, and [l]to make an end of sins, and to [m]make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up vision and [n]prophecy, and to anoint [o]the most holy. 25 Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto [p]the anointed one, the prince, shall be [q]seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troublous times. 26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and [r]shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined. 27 And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the [s]oblation to cease; and [t]upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate.70 weeks.
See above and below.
Daniels prophecy is for a time far in the futureA whole year and a half into the far future.
Daniel's Seventy Weeks has been completely fulfilled! It was fulfilled in 70 CE at the destruction of the second temple as indicated in verses 26 and 27. Therefore, Daniel Seventy Weeks covers 490 years from the destruction of the first temple to the destruction of the second. For it is only after the completion of the Seventy Weeks that complete redemption of Israel can come about. This is why the Talmud states that on the day of the destruction of the second temple, the messiah was born. They were not looking for the messiah and the End of Days to come during the Seventy Weeks of Daniel, only after...
What the Seventy Weeks of Daniel did was, lay a foundation for the great messianic age (olam haba) to come that will give rise to an everlasting temple. Remember, Daniel's temple was doomed from its beginning, it was only given 490 years to be in existence according to prophecy. Ezekiel's temple however, is prophesied to last throughout the ages (see Ezekiel 37:26-28).
.
So, the Messianic period/Messianic kingdom would begin in AD 70. We, as Preterists believe that Ezekiel's temple is a spiritual temple, as the NT teaches.
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@keithprosser
It's my view that because the early Christians wanted to connect their new religion with traditional judaism they re-interpreted the role of prophesy.
The first Christians were Jewish.
The OT prophets were not in the business of predicting the far future; they commented on their present time and the immediate consequences of what was happening right then, particuarly if what was happening was apostasy! The idea that prophesy is concerned with events hundreds of years ahead relies on very shakey parallels and disregrard for context and an unforced, natural reading of the prophetic books reveals their concern was for the present, not a half mllennium hence.
That is not accurate. Daniels prophecy is for a time far in the future and the OT sometimes makes the distinction by stating it was for the "latter" times. Prophecies like Daniel 9:24-27 also places the time of judgment when the city and temple are once again destroyed. Since they have not yet been built yet, and the decree comes decades later, this prophecy is for hundreds of years in the future.
9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time...13 But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age.”
When you are in distress and all these things have come upon you, in the latter days you will return to the Lord your God and listen to His voice.
After many days you will be summoned; in the latter years you will come into the land that is restored from the sword, whose inhabitants have been gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel which had been a continual waste; but its people were brought out from the nations, and they are living securely, all of them.
However, there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries, and He has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will take place in the latter days. This was your dream and the visions in your mind while on your bed.
[ Peaceful Latter Days ] And it will come about in the last days That the mountain of the house of the LordWill be established as the chief of the mountains. It will be raised above the hills, And the peoples will stream to it.
Daniel is a special case. I will not defend the late dating of Daniel but I accept the consensus it was written after not before most of the events it purports to predict. The reasoning behind the composition of Daniel was that its seeming accuracy about the past would give it credibility when it moved to predicting the future (past and future being relative to its time of writing).To understand Daniel it is necessary to study the situation in Palestine when it was written, because that is why it was written. It wasn't written in Babylon about events 600 years in its future. It was written in Palestine in 2ndC BCE about events there and then.
Based on what? The Dead Sea Scrolls contain a copy of Daniel that is traced back to 200BCE which means it is earlier than that. Then you have to reconcile other prophets that mention Daniel and his time that are dated earlier.
Dead Sea Scrolls discovered outside of the Qumran caves range from as early as the First Temple period (eighth century bce) to as late as the 11th century ce. Collections include the fourth-century bce Samaritan Aramaic papyri from Wadi Daliyeh and the Arabic manuscripts from Khirbet Mird (7th–8th centuries ce).
A reconstruction of 4QDanc., the oldest manuscript of the book of Daniel (second half of the second century BC)...Since there is a manuscript of Daniel that supposedly dates within 50 years of the autograph, is there enough time for the supposed traditio-historical and redaction-critical developments allegedly needed for the growth of the book? Supporters of the Maccabean dating hypothesis of Daniel will be hard put to explain all of this in their reconstructions. To express it differently, do the early dates of the fragments from Cave 4 leave enough room for the developments, editorial and redactional as well as others, that are so often proposed (e.g., Koch 1986:20–24)? The verdict seems to be negative, and an earlier date for Daniel than the second century is unavoidable.
However - don't take my word for it! If you're interested start googling.
I do not.
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@disgusted
Yeah but 70 weeks is 70 weeks if your are claiming prophesy fulfillment. It seems that you and your theological liars have produced a completely fabricated post hoc prophesy that you then claim was fulfilled.
Yeah, but...
So where do you propose the 70 weeks of years fail?
70 weeks is 70 weeks, that prophesy failed abysmally and down with it goes your much vaunted veracity of prophesy.
Not necessarily, because many numbers are rounded out in the Bible. For instance, one thousand can be shown to be figurative language such as, “For every beast of the forest is Mine, The cattle on a thousand hills.
If God owns every beast then He owns cattle on more than a thousand hills, even on one thousand and one or one million and one. Thus, the language is figurative and was commonly used to express large numbers.
That is the point I made when I cited Don K. Preston's idea of prophecy.
Even so, I have laid out that Philip Mauro has explained the 490 years adequately in his book. The dating system is based on Ptolemy's dating and astronomical signs which are highly suspicious.
An attempt has been made to call Astronomy to the aid of the defective Chronology of Ptolemy, by utilizing certain incidental references, contained in fragmentary historical records, to eclipses of the sun or moon...For example, one of the clearest of these historical references is that of the "Eclipse of Thales," mentioned by Herodotous. This eclipse is located by one astronomer as occurring in 625 B. C.; by another as late as 585 B. C. (a difference of 40 years); and by others at different dates in between (Anstey, p. 286).
Bad luck.The prophesy says 70 weeks
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@disgusted
How does 70 weeks stack up for accuracy?(dan)
There have been a number of ways of looking at the seventy weeks.
Philip Mauro (https://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/1921_mauro_seventy-weeks.html) believed the dating system based on Ptolemy was all screwed up and out of whack by 82 years. He used Martin Anstey's chronology which was based on the Bible alone to demonstrate this. Anstey said, "The true date of the 1st year of Cyrus is, therefore, B.C. 454, not B.C. 536"
According to Martin Anstey,
Persian Empire (Cyrus to Alexander the Great) 123 years (Daniel), 205 years (Ptolemy).
Greek Empire (Alexander the Great to AD 1) 331 years (Daniel), 331 years (Ptolemy).
TOTAL 454 years (Daniel), 536 years (Ptolemy).
AD1 to the Crucifixion, AD30 29 years (Daniel), 29 years (Ptolemy).
TOTAL 483 years (Daniel), 565 years (Ptolemy).
But the true point of departure for the 70 weeks, and therefore for the 483 years also, is unquestionably the 1st year of Cyrus (Dan. 9, 2 Chron. 36:20–23, Ezra 1:1–4, Isa. 44:28, 45:1–4, 13), and no other epoch would ever have been suggested but for the fact that the count of the years was lost, and wrongly restored from Ptolemy’s conjectural astronomical calculations. It would be far better to abandon the Ptolemaic Chronology and fit the events into the 483 years of the Hebrew prophecy.
I think the prophetic timetable can be demonstrated to apply to Jesus with this time frame. Also, the 40 years in judgment in the desert before Israel entered the Promised Land, led by Moses, is a type and shadow of the 40 years God gives these OT people in warning of the judgment of not entering that land unless they repented and believed.
***
Don. K. Preston believes that the seventy weeks are not exact but the starting point was Cyrus' decree to rebuild the temple and the endpoint the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. We know from Daniel 9:24-27 that the timeline includes the issuing of the decree to rebuild the city and temple once more and then another destruction after the Messiah is killed. We know from Daniel 9:24 that six specific issues would be fulfilled.
1. Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression,
2. To make an end of sin,
3. To make atonement for iniquity,
4. To bring in everlasting righteousness,
5. To seal up vision and prophecy,
6. To anoint the most holy place.
All six prophecies can most definitely be demonstrated to have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ.
1. God gave Israel, the Old Covenant people, a specific period of time to finish their transgression against Him. They had already answered for their seeking of false gods by the destruction of the city and temple by Babylon. This would happen again to finish the transgression. It would be a complete judgment where the curses of Deuteronomy 28 would take place.
2. With the destruction of the temple, the provision required to atone for sin, as prescribed by OT was no longer possible after AD 70 for the very reason that Jesus Christ had provided a once for all sacrifice for sin that met God's righteous standards (Hebrews 9:13-14). The OT provision obviously cannot be met as stated in the OT (Exodus 24:3, 7) and agreed to by the covenant people after AD 70.
3. With Christ's sacrifice, a new and better atonement for the iniquity of God's people was given.
4. The life of Jesus Christ was a righteous life without sin that satisfied God's righteous requirements, as stated over and over in the NT.
5. The end or sealing up of prophecy and vision would have all taken place by AD 70.
6. The holiest place would be anointed in heaven, per Daniel 7:13-14. The Son of Man would sit on the throne God promised King David.
All six prophecies can most definitely be demonstrated to have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ.
1. God gave Israel, the Old Covenant people, a specific period of time to finish their transgression against Him. They had already answered for their seeking of false gods by the destruction of the city and temple by Babylon. This would happen again to finish the transgression. It would be a complete judgment where the curses of Deuteronomy 28 would take place.
2. With the destruction of the temple, the provision required to atone for sin, as prescribed by OT was no longer possible after AD 70 for the very reason that Jesus Christ had provided a once for all sacrifice for sin that met God's righteous standards (Hebrews 9:13-14). The OT provision obviously cannot be met as stated in the OT (Exodus 24:3, 7) and agreed to by the covenant people after AD 70.
3. With Christ's sacrifice, a new and better atonement for the iniquity of God's people was given.
4. The life of Jesus Christ was a righteous life without sin that satisfied God's righteous requirements, as stated over and over in the NT.
5. The end or sealing up of prophecy and vision would have all taken place by AD 70.
6. The holiest place would be anointed in heaven, per Daniel 7:13-14. The Son of Man would sit on the throne God promised King David.
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@3RU7AL
The Jesus was a real, historical human being.
Is this something you are admitting or is there another point you are driving at?
The (historically verifiable) prophecies of the Jewish and Christian scriptures are 100% true.
If they are what they claim to be (God's revelation) this would logically be the case.
Neither of these things lend the slightest credibility to either the Jewish or Christian religious beliefs.
I'm not following in relation to what your statements are a reference to from what I have said? They come out of the blue. Please supply the context.
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