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@Timid8967
Yes, Idealism does deal with the Revelation of John. This is why I have asked you to read both Beale and Hendrickson. They are both commentaries on that book. Yet it does not deal exclusively and only with that book. It is relevant in relation to the rest of the bible.
According to Don K. Preston, who I believe has a greater understanding of eschatology than most (And I have over a dozen of his books on the subject), Beale is an Amillennialist. Preston says,
"So, Beale, Riddlebarger, Hanegraff et al., see the end of the Old Covenant age in AD 70 as a foreshadow and type of the end of the Christian age."
Don K. Preston, AD 70. A Shadow of the 'Real' End? (see p. 5-6)
I was not aware that the Christian age had an end.
Do you agree with the definition of Idealism on Wikipedia because I do not find it represents the Preterist position accurately in places?
While I think Preterism holds aspects of that definition of idealism (i.e., the spiritual approach), I also see a historical fulfillment in Revelation with the judgment of the Jews and Jerusalem in AD 70. I believe the millennium was the period from AD 30-70, not currently taking place, or some future time. I believe all Scripture is fulfilled, not some still to be, as Beale believes. I believe Jesus spoke of two ages, "this age and he one to come," not three like Beale would have to believe. I believe the Gospel was preached to the entire known world (as generally known by the Jews of that time) before AD70. I believe the new heavens and earth a heavenly realm, a spiritual realm, not an earthly one. I believe the Second Coming happened in AD 70, a judgment of the entire Old Covenant system of worship. I believe the marriage of the Lamb happened at that time also, where the Bride was united with Christ (symbolically). The period before AD 70 was the betrothal, in which a transition took place from the Old Covenant to the New. I believe God divorced Judah, the southern kingdom, for unfaithfulness before taking a new bride. I believe the physical history of the OT contains spiritual truths that always point(ed) to Jesus Christ/Yeshua the Messiah. I believe the restoration to God was completed by AD 70. Fellowship with God was disrupted by the Fall of Adam and restoration accomplished by Jesus Christ in its completion by/in AD 70 (our victory is in Jesus Christ who has fulfilled all that we could not). I believe the last days, as used in and pertaining to the NT, are the times leading up to "that day," or also known as the day of wrath, the day, the day of the Lord or the day of judgment. I believe the Messiah came to an Old Covenant people for two purposes, to bring salvation for those waiting for it and to bring the promised judgment for those apostate and rebellious people who would not repent, the rebellion as outlined throughout the OT Scriptures.
I am not dogmatic on every one of these thoughts (but I am convinced on most of them and can justify them with Scripture) if a biblical argument exists that can show otherwise.
Now, I wait for your take on Revelation and why you believe Idealism is more plausible than Preterism, per Beale (see Post 208).
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@Timid8967
Yes, Idealism does deal with the Revelation of John. This is why I have asked you to read both Beale and Hendrickson. They are both commentaries on that book. Yet it does not deal exclusively and only with that book. It is relevant in relation to the rest of the bible.
Unless you know of an online version it would be a while before I can do that. That is why I am interested in how you think Beales take is better than a Preterist's take. Please explain how so I can argue the case with you. You must have some idea of why Idealism is better than Preterism. Go ahead and explain it to me.
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@Stephen
Tell me how does this>>>>>#194 <<<< nonsense of yours prove I have twisted anything into any shape
It is not nonsense. Over and over in the NT, we are told of the symbolism, the typology, the shadow of the Old Covenant and how it pointed to something far greater, the Lord Jesus Christ and the transition between covenants.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the violation committed by Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type.
Hebrews 8:5who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He says, “that you make all things by the pattern which was shown to you on the mountain.”
One Sacrifice of Christ Is Sufficient ] For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the form of those things itself, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually every year, make those who approach perfect.
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
2 Corinthians 3:4-18 (NASB)
4 Such is the confidence we have toward God through Christ. 5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves so as to consider anything as having come from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, 6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, engraved in letters on stones, came [a]with glory so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness excel in glory. 10 For indeed what had glory in this case has no glory, because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if that which fades away was [b]with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.
12 Therefore, having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, 13 and we are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not stare at the end of what was fading away. 14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil [c]remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their hearts; 16 but whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 But we all, with unveiled faces, looking as in a mirror at the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
7 But if the ministry of death, engraved in letters on stones, came [a]with glory so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness excel in glory. 10 For indeed what had glory in this case has no glory, because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if that which fades away was [b]with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.
12 Therefore, having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, 13 and we are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not stare at the end of what was fading away. 14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil [c]remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their hearts; 16 but whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 But we all, with unveiled faces, looking as in a mirror at the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
Galatians 4:21-31
21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the Law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the slave woman [s]was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 [t]This is speaking allegorically, for these women are two covenants: one coming from Mount Sinai giving birth to children [u]who are to be slaves; [v]she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is enslaved with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; [w]she is our mother. 27 For it is written:
“Rejoice, infertile one, you who do not give birth;
Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor;
For the children of the desolate one are more numerous
Than those of the one who has a husband.”
28 And you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time the son who was born according to the flesh persecuted the one who was born according to the Spirit, so it is even now. 30 But what does the Scripture say?
“Drive out the slave woman and her son,
For the son of the slave woman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.”
31 So then, brothers and sisters, we are not children of a slave woman, but of the free woman.
What is hidden in the OT in its physical history is a spiritual truth that the unbeliever so often misses because they don't want to see it.
But a natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
What do those verses convey? There is more to the physical history of Israel than meets the eye. The physical history teaches us something more important.
There are so many things you as an unbeliever are unaware and ignorant of.
I could get into the typology with Solomon and the OT and Christ and the NT more by Scripture is plain. You only see and take note of what you want to. Acts 2 says Jesus is ascended to David's throne. That is an inconvenient truth for you.
25 For David says of Him,
‘I saw the Lord continually before me,
Because He is at my right hand, so that I will not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart was glad and my tongue was overjoyed
Moreover my flesh also will live in hope;
27 For You will not abandon my soul to Hades,
28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of gladness with Your presence.’
29 “[ae]Brothers, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is [af]with us to this day. 30 So because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one [ag]of his descendants on his throne, 31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the [ah]Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh [ai]suffer decay. 32 It is this Jesus whom God raised up, [aj]a fact to which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore, [ak]since He has been exalted [al]at the right hand of God,
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@Stephen
I gave you two verses from the bible and simply asked you to SHOW ME how I have twisted them. But you are too stupid to even realise that I hadn't even made a comment on either or interpreted anything excepting the fact that one verse says what was SUPPOSED to happen: Luke1:26-38 and another verse showing what eventually DID happen instead : Mark 15: 21–41
Regarding those two verses, with the second, Jesus had to be the Lamb without a spot to set up the New Covenant before He sat on His glorious throne. In the crucifixion, He was offering a new sacrifice to God, not an animal substitute that represented the sinner, but Himself. Just as Adam sinned and brought condemnation into the world, so Jesus was going to fulfill what Adam was not able to do (live a righteous life before God) and what the Old Covenant was not able to do. His perfect sacrifice was offered to make substitutionary atonement for His people (all those who will come to faith in Him).
Priests were mediators between the covenant people and God. But the system of worship in the OT was flawed because the people were continually offering sacrifices of atonement for sin. They realize God is pure and holy and to come before His presence requires purity.
Hebrews 7
11 So if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. 13 For the one about whom these things are said belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord [g]was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses said nothing concerning priests. 15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16 who has become a priest not on the basis of a law of [h]physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is attested of Him,
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”
18 For, on the one hand, there is the nullification of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the Law made nothing perfect); on the other hand, there is the introduction of a better hope, through which we come near to God. 20 And to the extent that it was not without an oath 21 (for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him,
“The Lord has sworn
And will not change His mind,
‘You are a priest forever’”);
22 by the same extent Jesus also has become the [i]guarantee of a better covenant.
23 [j]The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing; 24 [k]Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25 Therefore He is also able to save [l]forever those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens; 27 who has no daily need, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because He did this once for all time when He offered up Himself. 28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, who has been made perfect forever.
Hebrews 8
8 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister [a]in the sanctuary and [b]in the true [c]tabernacle, which the Lord set up, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are [d]those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses [e]was warned by God when he was about to erect the [f]tabernacle; for, “See,” He says, “that you make all things by the pattern which was shown to you on the mountain.” 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, to the extent that He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been free of fault, no [g]circumstances would have been sought for a second. 8 For in finding fault with [h]the people, He says,
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
[i]When I will bring about a new covenant
With the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day I took them by the hand
To bring them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care about them, says the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, declares the Lord:
[j]I will put My laws into their minds,
And write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.
11 And they will not teach, each one his fellow citizen,
And each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
For they will all know Me,
From [k]the least to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful toward their wrongdoings,
And their sins I will no longer remember.”
God is making a new covenant with Israel, the Israel of God, the church. It is not like the first covenant with all its weaknesses.
As promised by God, the Son would sit at the Father's right side until His enemies were made a footstool. Old Covenant Israel had become an enemy with her apostasy and foreign gods, then the rejection of the Son.
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@Stephen
I gave you two verses from the bible and simply asked you to SHOW ME how I have twisted them. [a] But you are too stupid to even realise that I hadn't even made a comment on either or interpreted anything excepting the fact that one verse says what was SUPPOSED to happen: [b] Luke1:26-38 and another verse showing what eventually DID happen instead : Mark 15: 21–41Tell me how does this>>>>>#194 <<<< nonsense of yours prove I have twisted anything into any shape?
[a] Ad homs do little to address a subject under discussion.
[b] "32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; 33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.”"
The throne of David was used to govern Israel. Jesus is governing Israel, the new Israel of God, the Church where both Jews and Gentiles are included as prophesied in the OT.
Jesus said everything in the OT points to Him.
27 Then beginning [l]with Moses and [m]with all the Prophets, He explained to them the things written about Himself in all the Scriptures.
You do not seem to understand this.
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@Stephen
Like you say, he[Stephen] just continually asserts biblical verses without any exegesis.You mean I put up and question BIBLICAL verses but don't interpret them like you do .. if at all? You have accused me above saying :" Stephen tries to twist the Scriptures into a pretzel."I asked you how I do that and for a few examples.#192
I do give examples.
You,
1) take verses out of context,
2) Collapse context,
3) Ignore what this means to the 1st-century audience of address, the primary audience,
4) You do not exegete passages of Scripture. You present them. You think just by quoting a verse; then it is plain to all. Remember that you are 20 centuries removed from that original audience. What did it mean to them? How would they understand Jesus coming in the Father's glory?
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@FLRW
I think a research paper titled: DID JESUS RETURN IN 70 AD? by Stafford North, Oklahoma Christian Univerity of Science and Artssupports Stephen's points. In it North says,We have studied passages that speak clearly of the second coming and of eventswhich shall accompany that coming. We have one of three choices in interpretingthese passages: (1) that the events which are said to accompany the secondcoming literally took place in 70 A.D. but we have no record of it;
We most certainly do. We have the destruction of the temple and city, as prophesied. We no longer have a priesthood mediating between these OT people and God, no more animal sacrifices to make atonement for their sins, no more feast days, no more genealogical records to trace the priesthood, no more OT economy, no more temple worship. It has all been removed as prophesied.
[ Seventy Weeks and the Messiah ] “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the wrongdoing, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place.
This verse speaks of a time period to make right Israel's sins through judgment and bring in everlasting righteousness. Daniel is told that the end time for His people would be when everything written has taken place.
[ The Time of the End ] “Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
Notice, Daniel is told,
" that it would be for a [f]time, [g]times, and half a [h]time; and as soon as [i]they finish smashing the [j]power of the holy people, all these events will be completed."
Daniel is told,
"13 But as for you, go your way to the [o]end; then you will rest and [p]rise for your allotted portion at the end of the [q]age.”
End of what age? Do you know? Remember Daniel 12:1 speaks of Daniel's people. Who are Daniel's people? They are a people supposedly in covenant relationship with God. They are people who agreed to follow God and His decrees and commandments.
Exodus 24:3 (NASB)
3 Then Moses came and reported to the people all the words of the Lord and all the [a]ordinances; and all the people answered with one voice and said, “All the words which the Lord has spoken we will do!”
7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it [a]as the people listened; and they said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient!”
Remember also that God gave Israel a choice of following His decrees and commandments and being blessed or being disobedient in which He would take away His hand of protection on them.
Now remember the warnings issued by the herald of the New Covenant,
At that time Jerusalem was going out to him, and all Judea and all the region around the Jordan; 6 and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, as they confessed their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for [h]baptism, he said to them, “You [i]offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore produce fruit consistent with repentance; 9 and do not assume that you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father’; for I tell you that God is able, from these stones, to raise up children for Abraham. 10 And the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore, every tree that does not bear good fruit is being cut down and thrown into the fire.
11 “As for me, I baptize you [j]with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you [k]with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for [h]baptism, he said to them, “You [i]offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore produce fruit consistent with repentance; 9 and do not assume that you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father’; for I tell you that God is able, from these stones, to raise up children for Abraham. 10 And the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore, every tree that does not bear good fruit is being cut down and thrown into the fire.
11 “As for me, I baptize you [j]with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you [k]with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
So, what does Jesus come preaching? He forewarns them of the same things that Daniel did, a time of distress and great tribulation (Daniel 12:1) such as THEY have never witnessed before.
Matthew 24
Perilous Times
15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place—[k]let the [l]reader understand— 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.... 21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will again. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no [q]life would have been saved; but for the sake of the [r]elect those days will be cut short.
Notice the difference between Daniel's wording in Daniel 12 and this passage. Jesus said NOW, Daniel said "until THAT TIME. Which time?
Daniel said, the end of the age, what age?
Jesus said to the disciples,
3 And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the [b]end of the age?”
These are the last days, the days of wrath, that the OT speaks of.
Luke 21:20-24 (NASB)
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then [a]recognize that her desolation is near. 21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are inside [b]the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter [c]the city; 22 because these are days of punishment, so that all things which have been written will be fulfilled. 23 Woe to those women who are pregnant, and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the [d]land, and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Those days are the same the Matthew 24:15 speak of. Jesus says, "these are days of punishment, so that all things which have been written will be fulfilled."
Jesus said all things which are written? What does that mean? He is referring to the OT.
Jesus places the tribulation or distress upon the land of Israel and against THIS people. Which people is Jesus speaking about??? Which people did He come to? He says THEY will fall by the sword. How can that passage apply today? Are we going back to the days of swords?
So, how you can say option one is not feasible is to turn a blind eye to what Scripture says.
(2) that since these events did not take place in 70 A.D. (or since) that we are to continue tolook for Jesus’ coming when they will take place, or
Or maybe you do not understand the nature of His coming?
(3) that there is a figurative meaning hidden in these passages about the end of the Jewish law and thebeginning of the Christian system.
Any figurative meaning has its explanation in Scripture since God can communicate effectively.
We clearly reject option one because had such spectacular events have taken place, we certainly would have some record of it.
You do have a record. You have a confirmation bias.
Option three is the view of those believing Jesus returned in 70 A.D., but to holdthis view they must allegorize these passages when there is no justification fordoing so. The context and language describes real events which are to beexpected to occur.
No, option one and three are. We understand that to interpret Scripture, you must understand whether it is figurative or historical narrative and any figurative language will find an explanation in Scripture. There is an apocalyptic language being used in Matthew 24 as well as literal historical narrative. Jesus is addressing a 1st-century people using at times figurative language they would understand.
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@Timid8967
Hi PGA2.0If you want to me to discuss things with you - you need to make your posts shorter. I simply do not have the patience to read the long ones you post presently. Try 1 point at a time.Have you had an opportunity to read Beale yet? Or perhaps Hendrickson?
Nope. I will leave it to you to defend, for now, since you think it is more plausible than Preterism and you are more familiar with it than I am.
I really would like to have your refutation of idealism before we go further. Presently I find idealism more convincing that preterism.So if you could do so - it would be helpful.
Again, I asked you (IYO), does Idealism deal exclusively with the Revelation of John?
I already questioned it in that aspect of the Revelation. In Revelation, figurative and apocalyptic language is used. It relates to a specific people (the Jews) and a specific timeframe. I don't see how you can avoid that and make it fit any other time in history. The quotes and citations of OT Scripture are greater in this writing than any other NT writing. An understanding of the OT and how it relates is beneficial. Once you ignore the primary audience of address, you butcher Scripture to make it say anything. I fear that is what Idealism does.
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@Stephen
Stephen tries to twist the Scriptures into a pretzel.How? Give us a few examples.I simply quote the scripture. I leave it up to the likes of you to do all the interpretations (and "distorting") I simply watch how you handle and bastardise BIBLICAL facts. I have never once presented my theories or opinions as fact, which is something that YOU in particular , can never stop doing.Here is an example, explain how I have "pretzlized" these verses>This is what was supposed to happen>>> the lord promised Jesus' Mother Mary the Virgin that;32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David”:Luke1:26-38This is what actually happened instead >>> "Jesus was taken to a place called Golgotha – which means ‘The place of the skull’ - for his brutal execution by crucifixion. Mark 15: 21–41So why did the "angel of the Lord" not make any mention of this brutal, viscous and torturous ending for her son?So you see. The only thing Jesus inherited was two pieces of wood, three nails and a view overlooking the Kidron Valley. This is far from a throne of any description isn’t it? Especially the “great throne covered with ivory and overlaid with fine gold.” of King David, as described here > > > 1Kings 10:18So, when you are ready.
32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David” (Luke1:26-38)
The throne of David was to be a heavenly kingdom, not an earthly one.
Acts 2:24-37
24 [y]But God raised Him from the dead, putting an end to the [z]agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held [aa]in its power. 25 For David says of Him,
‘I saw the Lord continually before me,
Because He is at my right hand, so that I will not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart was glad and my tongue was overjoyed;
Moreover my flesh also will live in hope;
27 For You will not abandon my soul to Hades,
28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of gladness with Your presence.’
29 “[ae]Brothers, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is [af]with us to this day. 30 So because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one [ag]of his descendants on his throne, 31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the [ah]Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh [ai]suffer decay. 32 It is this Jesus whom God raised up, [aj]a fact to which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore, [ak]since He has been exalted [al]at the right hand of God, and has received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, He has poured out this which you both see and hear. 34 For it was not David who ascended into [am]heaven, but he himself says:
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”’
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and [an]Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.”
The highlighted parts answers everything you claim did not happen.
I suggest you start reading from the passage provided onwards in the following link:
"However, where was that throne? Peter makes his point: “David is not ascended into the heavens, but he says himself: ‘The Lord said to my Lord, sit at my right hand, Till I make thy enemies Your footstool.’” Acts 2:34-35. The Messiah was to sit on the throne of David in heaven, not on earth."
So their blood shall return on the head of Joab and on the head of his descendants forever; but for David and his descendants, and his house and his throne, may there be peace from the Lord forever.”
Solomon is a typology as the son of David of a greater truth, for Solomon did not accomplish all that was required of him but pointed to Jesus, the Son of God, who sits on the throne of God.
That is why Scripture can say,
Then Solomon sat on the throne of his father David, and his kingdom was firmly established.
Even as Solomon established the throne of David and it passed from generation to generation, through Judah's lineage, the Messiah (Yeshua) would come and reestablish the throne of David, yet not in the earthly country of Judah but in the heavenly one to fulfill the promise.
So their blood shall return on the head of Joab and on the head of his descendants forever; but for David and his descendants, and his house and his throne, may there be peace from the Lord forever.”
But King Solomon will be blessed, and the throne of David will be established before the Lord forever.”
So behold, I intend to build a house for the name of the Lord my God, just as the Lord spoke to David my father, saying, ‘Your son, whom I will put on your throne in your place, he will build the house for My name.’
Solomon was a type of Christ in that he pointed to Jesus as the builder of the house or kingdom.
(Anyone interested can see how I have supported my statements with links to Scripture (for instance, see "house" in the last passage. Also, see the links below)
Because of Israel's unfaithfulness, God brought judgment on the Northern Kingdom (Israel) and reserved judgment for the Southern Kingdom (Judah) for the time of Messiah. God issued a writ of divorce against Israel long before He issued a writ of divorce against Judah. The Messiah first had to come through the lineage of Judah before God did the latter. Judah had to heap up her sins to the maximum before God divorced her too. That is why in Revelation, Jerusalem, the city of God, Israel's administrative and economic capital, was referred to as a harlot and destroyed in AD 70. Then, after the divorce for unfaithfulness, God in Jesus Christ, chose a new bride, the Church, the new Israel of God. The typology or shadow of the OT is revealed in the NT. And what applies to God in the OT applies to Jesus in the NT. (I.e., God takes a bride, Israel and enters into a covenant with her; Jesus takes a bride, the new Israel or the Church and enters into a covenant with her).
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@Timid8967
PGA0.2 is a believer and i am not. I am not simply rejecting his ideas because they contradict me. I am trying to understand his position in order to form an assessment about it. This is called suspending my judgment until I have understood it. You shut him down before you understand it. I have tried to understand your position - but you are not trying to explain it - just dogmatically asserting things without explaining it. You did not even try and join the dots.
Thank you for that! I'm glad someone else recognizes this besides me. I'm surprised more people have not commented on his lack of effort to support his view. Like you say, he just continually asserts biblical verses without any exegesis. He thinks that by repeating, "every eye will see him," he automatically wins his case. Not only that, he repeatedly ignores rebutting my points. When he feels threatened by what I have written, he employs another verse, as if that now makes everything okay.
I also respect that you are willing to hear me out on this subject.
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@Timid8967
I'm not familiar with the idealistic view and I have been meaning to read Beale. To my understanding, it deals with Revelation. I can't see that position fitting with Revelation. Do you understand Revelation? What is your take on it? Do you see it as a judgment on Old Covenant Israel? Do you understand the references to 1st-century history in its allegory and figurative language? You see, the language is very specific once you understand it. That brings me to another point, have you read the OT, or for that matter, the entire Bible? How many times, if yes? Do you understand the main themes? I have read some millennial authors, but only one in-depth on the subject of eschatology - that was Kim Riddlebarger, A Case for Amillennialism: Understanding the End Times: Kim Riddlebarger: 9780801064357: Amazon.com: Books. I think that view is flawed.I have not read Riddlebarger. Never heard of him or her either.I suggest that you have a look at Beale and see how he interprets it before you call it flawed. His is becoming the more popular view in reformed churches. I wrote to Gentry a while ago and asked him what he thought of it. He indicated he was going to refute it in his then coming book on Revelation. I never read it.
I could perhaps clear up Revelation somewhat for you. It is John's take on the Olivet Discourse of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. It was written shortly before the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 and concerns judgment on the nation of Israel, specifically Judah. Don K. Preston believes it is God's writ of divorce against His bride for adultery. Throughout the Revelation, there are time indicators that give clues to when it was written, such as a key one in Revelation 17:10
and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.
Josephus lists the succession of Roman emperors, which identifies the one who is as Nero.
John is told of things that must soon take place. That includes the judgments on Israel the Daniel was told to seal up until the end times or the end of the Old Covenant.
Daniel 12
12 “Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting [a]contempt. 3 And [b]those who have insight will shine like the glow of the [c]expanse of heaven, and those who [d]lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. 4 But as for you, Daniel, keep these words secret and seal up the book until the end of time; many will roam about, and knowledge will increase.”
...7 And I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream, [e]as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a [f]time, [g]times, and half a [h]time; and as soon as [i]they finish smashing the [j]power of the holy people, all these events will be completed. 8 But as for me, I heard but did not understand; so I said, “My lord, what will be the [k]outcome of these events?” 9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words will be kept secret and sealed up until the end time.
...11 And from the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination [n]of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who is patient and attains to the 1,335 days! 13 But as for you, go your way to the [o]end; then you will rest and [p]rise for your allotted portion at the end of the [q]age.”
Revelation is an opening of the sealed judgments on Israel at the time of the end of the Old Covenant as well as a revelation of Jesus Christ coming in His glory, the glory of the Father. For hundreds of years, they are sealed, waiting for this time.
And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and to break its seals?”
And one of the elders *said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to be able to open the scroll and its seven seals.
So, although there is much apocalyptic language, that language finds many of its keys of typology from the physical nation of Israel in the OT since it references these OT people. There are more quotes and references to the OT in the Revelation than any other NT writing.
As for the bible - yes I have read it. Not suggesting i know it well and I don't pretend to understand it. It is quite confusing and to me contradictory.
There are definitely things hard to understand that require a lot of studies. That is why Peter could say,
2 Peter 3:16 (NASB)
16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which there are some things that are hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
Stephen tries to twist the Scriptures into a pretzel. He has done that on numerous threads and it takes a lot of work to set the record straight.
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@Timid8967
Thanks for posting on this particular thread. It is the correct thread to post it on. I cannot figure out why Stephen would want you to post elsewhere. It is directly on point. His topic is eschatological. Your point is eschatological. Surely he does not think he owns the thread and can determine what is eschatological and what is not? After reading your posts - well parts of them - you make much more sense to me than Stephen does. At least you attempt to connect the dots. Even if I don't agree with you. Which I don't.Thank you for your support on this point. I wondered if anyone was critical enough in their thinking to recognize that Preterism concerns itself with Jesus' coming as past and as a reasonable explanation. I don't think there is a more reasonable explanation.Have you not come across the Idealistic View - as espoused by Beale? This view is the predominant view of many reformed folk around the world. It is not preterist. It is not dispensiationalism. It is not historicalism. It is amill - and although it still does not convince me - it is in my view much stronger in logic and symbolism and interpretation than either form of preterism.
I'm not familiar with the idealistic view and I have been meaning to read Beale. To my understanding, it deals with Revelation. I can't see that position fitting with Revelation. Do you understand Revelation? What is your take on it? Do you see it as a judgment on Old Covenant Israel? Do you understand the references to 1st-century history in its allegory and figurative language? You see, the language is very specific once you understand it. That brings me to another point, have you read the OT, or for that matter, the entire Bible? How many times, if yes? Do you understand the main themes? I have read some millennial authors, but only one in-depth on the subject of eschatology - that was Kim Riddlebarger, A Case for Amillennialism: Understanding the End Times: Kim Riddlebarger: 9780801064357: Amazon.com: Books. I think that view is flawed.
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@Stephen
Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world – on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).Jesus accomplish NONE of the above. Not a one.I don't doubt that your new found friend and the forums " new" member will agree with your shite just for the hell of it but he won't be able to dispute what THE CHRISTIAN BIBLE actually prophesises about the messiah to come.For you to seven suggest that Jesus "fulfilled all of the Old Testament prophesies and promises" is simply lying.He didn't even inherit the throne of King David as " the lord" promised his mother that he would.This is what was supposed to happen>>>32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David”:Luke1:26-38This is what actually happened instead >>> "Jesus was taken to a place called Golgotha – which means ‘The place of the skull’ - for his brutal execution by crucifixion. Mark 15: 21–41So you see. The only thing Jesus inherited was two pieces of wood, three nails and a view overlooking the Kidron Valley. This is far from a throne of any description isn’t it? Especially the “great throne covered with ivory and overlaid with fine gold.” of King David, as described here > > > 1Kings 10:18And what happened about returning to " establish his kingdom on earth"? Or are the words;"Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven", still escaping you?
To be continued when I get more time. A busy weekend coming up (three grandkids spending the weekend here) and I need to prepare.
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@Stephen
Hebrews 9:23-28 (NASB)
23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these things, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made by hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Holy Place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been revealed to put away sin [a]by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
[ Contrast of Sinai and Zion ] For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind,
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels,
Stephen, you see a contrast between the physical and spiritual that takes place throughout the NT. What is contained in the OT is explained in the New Testament.
For this is contained in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a choice stone, a precious cornerstone, And the one who believes in Him will not be put to shame.”
The true believers of Israel in the OT understood they were not looking for a physical country. Hebrews 11 explains this further.
3 By faith we understand that the [d]world has been created by the word of God so that what is seen has not been made out of things that are visible.
9 By faith he lived as a stranger in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; 10 for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen and welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15 And indeed if they had been [k]thinking of that country which they left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not [l]ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and the one who had received the promises was offering up his [m]only son; 18 it was he to whom it was said, “Through Isaac your [n]descendants shall be named.” 19 [o]He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back [p]as a [q]type.
24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25 choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the temporary pleasures of sin, 26 considering the [r]reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward.
The reproach of Christ? When did Moses receive the reproach of Christ? I believe it was at the burning bush when he encountered the great I Am.
39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive [aa]what was promised, 40 because God had [ab]provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.
Hebrews 12
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of [h]angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.
The Unshaken Kingdom
25 See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, [i]much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns us from heaven. 26 And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth, but also the heaven.” 27 This expression, “Yet once more,” denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let’s [j]show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; 29 for our God is a consuming fire.
The Unshaken Kingdom
25 See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, [i]much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns us from heaven. 26 And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth, but also the heaven.” 27 This expression, “Yet once more,” denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let’s [j]show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; 29 for our God is a consuming fire.
Again, you see the contrast between the heavenly and earthly. Everything they knew, Israel's heaven and earth, revolved around temple worship and temple sacrifice, were about to be removed in AD 70 and establish a better covenant. God was going to remove the OT atonement of sacrifice for sins from the nation of Israel because He had already replaced it in Christ Jesus with better worship and better sacrifice. What was old and fading was about to disappear. The Old Covenant economy was about to be judged along with these OT people.
Hebrews 8:13(NASB)
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@Stephen
Point 2:
Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
This is happening in the 1st-century. The New Israel is the church made up of Jews and Gentiles.
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
It is through the promise that physical Israel realizes their land, the new promised land.
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s [c]descendants, but: “[d]through Isaac your [e]descendants shall be named.”
It is you who are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God ordained with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’
remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the people of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel After those days, declares the Lord: I will put My laws into their minds, And write them on their hearts. And I will be their God, And they shall be My people.
You see, the promise is based on Jesus Christ. That is the Israel of God, and Jesus is the king of Israel.
Galatians 3:6-29
6 Just as Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. 7 Therefore, recognize that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God [j]would justify the [k]Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed with [l]Abraham, the believer.
10 For all who are of works of [m]the Law are under a curse; for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all the things written in the book of the Law, to do them.” 11 Now, that no one is justified [n]by [o]the Law before God is evident; for, “[p]the righteous one will live by faith.” 12 [q]However, the Law is not [r]of faith; on the contrary, “The person who performs [s]them will live by [t]them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a [u]tree”— 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Intent of the Law
15 Brothers and sisters, I speak [v]in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man’s [w]covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds [x]conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as one would in referring to many, but rather as in referring to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came 430 years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is [y]based on law, it is no longer [z]based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.
19 Why the Law then? It was added on account of the [aa]violations, having been ordered through angels at the hand of a [ab]mediator, until the Seed would come to whom the promise had been made. 20 Now a mediator is not [ac]for one party only; but God is only one. 21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? [ad]Far from it! For if a law had been given that was able to impart life, then righteousness [ae]would indeed have been [af]based on law. 22 But the Scripture has confined [ag]everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, [ah]we were kept in custody under the Law, being confined for the faith that was destined to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our [ai]guardian to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a [aj]guardian. 26 For you are all sons and daughters of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is [ak]neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you [al]belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s [am]descendants, heirs according to promise.
10 For all who are of works of [m]the Law are under a curse; for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all the things written in the book of the Law, to do them.” 11 Now, that no one is justified [n]by [o]the Law before God is evident; for, “[p]the righteous one will live by faith.” 12 [q]However, the Law is not [r]of faith; on the contrary, “The person who performs [s]them will live by [t]them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a [u]tree”— 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Intent of the Law
15 Brothers and sisters, I speak [v]in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man’s [w]covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds [x]conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as one would in referring to many, but rather as in referring to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came 430 years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is [y]based on law, it is no longer [z]based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.
19 Why the Law then? It was added on account of the [aa]violations, having been ordered through angels at the hand of a [ab]mediator, until the Seed would come to whom the promise had been made. 20 Now a mediator is not [ac]for one party only; but God is only one. 21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? [ad]Far from it! For if a law had been given that was able to impart life, then righteousness [ae]would indeed have been [af]based on law. 22 But the Scripture has confined [ag]everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, [ah]we were kept in custody under the Law, being confined for the faith that was destined to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our [ai]guardian to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a [aj]guardian. 26 For you are all sons and daughters of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is [ak]neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you [al]belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s [am]descendants, heirs according to promise.
Galatians 4:22-
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the slave woman [s]was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 [t]This is speaking allegorically, for these women are two covenants: one coming from Mount Sinai giving birth to children [u]who are to be slaves; [v]she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is enslaved with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; [w]she is our mother. 27 For it is written:
“Rejoice, infertile one, you who do not give birth;
Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor;
For the children of the desolate one are more numerous
Than those of the one who has a husband.”
28 And you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time the son who was born according to the flesh persecuted the one who was born according to the Spirit, so it is even now. 30 But what does the Scripture say?
“Drive out the slave woman and her son,
For the son of the slave woman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.”
31 So then, brothers and sisters, we are not children of a slave woman, but of the free woman.
You see, Stephen, the one covenant by works, the OT could never fulfill the requirements of God. As soon as Israel sinned again they needed another sacrifice for sins. That is why God, in the OT, speaks of another covenant, a better one that comes to fruition during the NT times. You will notice above that physical Israel, the physical land, the physical Moses, the physical temple, the physical animal sacrifices all convey a greater truth, the freedom and peace with God found in Jesus Christ. The Mount Sinai below the author, Paul, corresponds Hagar and the Old Covenant with physical Jerusalem. The spiritual Mt Zion is heavenly, corresponding to the heavenly Jerusalem and heavenly land found in Christ. One is in bondage because she is always trying by her own works of righteousness to fulfill the Law. It only works until their next sin. Then another sacrifice is needed to atone for their sins. Works do not cut it. Paul is saying we are justified by faith in Jesus Christ. He has fulfilled the whole Law of Moses on behalf of the believer by becoming a sufficient sacrifice for sins, one offering for all time.
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@Stephen
More BS. !!!!Specifically, the Bible says he will:Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
Ezekiel 37:26-28 (NASB)
26 And I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will [a]place them and multiply them, and set My sanctuary in their midst forever. 27 My dwelling place also will be among them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people. 28 And the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.”’”
The covenant of peace with God in the New Covenant. It is in this covenant that God is well pleased.
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought for a price: therefore glorify God in your body.
Ephesians 2:19-21 (NASB)
19 So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the [a]saints, and are of God’s household, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy [b]temple in the Lord,
in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.
For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.
you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices that are acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
Concerning this covenant, on the day of Pentecost, Peter could say:
16 but this is what has been spoken through the prophet Joel:
17 ‘And it shall be in the last days,’ God says,
‘That I will pour out My Spirit on all [p]mankind;
And your sons and your daughters will prophesy,
And your young men will see visions,
And your old men will [q]have dreams;
18 And even on My male and female [r]servants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days,
And they will prophesy.
19 And I will [s]display wonders in the sky above
And signs on the earth below,
Blood, fire, and [t]vapor of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood,
Before the great and glorious day of the Lord comes.
21 And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’
22 “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a Man [u]attested to you by God with [v]miracles and wonders and [w]signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— 23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of [x]godless men and put Him to death. 24 [y]But God raised Him from the dead, putting an end to the [z]agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held [aa]in its power. 25 For David says of Him,
‘I saw the Lord continually before me,
Because He is at my right hand, so that I will not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart was glad and my tongue was overjoyed;
Moreover my flesh also will live in hope;
27 For You will not abandon my soul to Hades,
28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of gladness with Your presence.’
29 “[ae]Brothers, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is [af]with us to this day. 30 So because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one [ag]of his descendants on his throne, 31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the [ah]Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh [ai]suffer decay. 32 It is this Jesus whom God raised up, [aj]a fact to which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore, [ak]since He has been exalted [al]at the right hand of God, and has received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, He has poured out this which you both see and hear. 34 For it was not David who ascended into [am]heaven, but he himself says:
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”’
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and [an]Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.”
37 Now when they heard this, they were [ao]pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “[ap]Brothers, what are we to do?” 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far away, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” 40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on urging them, saying, “[aq]Be saved from this perverse generation!” 41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand [ar]souls.
These new believers were coming into the household of God. They were entering the spiritual temple, the spiritual land, looking towards the heavenly country, the Zion of God.
And so much for your theory that Jesus' body suffered decay. These verses thoroughly debunk your view.
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@Timid8967
Thanks PGA2.0. I don't actually hold a view - I don't have too since I am not a believer and since it is sort of irrelevant. Me, I just like intellectual honesty. And I like people attempting to find ways to discuss differences without getting all tetchy.
I'm sure you believe that you hold no view, but I find it hard to be neutral. Unbelievers hold views too. Neutrality is a myth. I do not believe you are neutral on the subject matter. Surely you would know that after reading Bahnsen on Van Til? Perhaps an explanation is that you don't know how much your current worldview influences your state of being. Since you have read more on Preterism and partial Preterism plus all futuristic views of eschatology than anyone I have encountered on these forums, perhaps you are suppressing your view or do not want it to be true.
If my view is true, and I invite you to critique it, it does affect what you believe since our views conflict with each other. That logically means we both cannot be right. I believe speaking with someone who knows something about the subject will showcase the subject more effectively.
Thanks for posting on this particular thread. It is the correct thread to post it on. I cannot figure out why Stephen would want you to post elsewhere. It is directly on point. His topic is eschatological. Your point is eschatological. Surely he does not think he owns the thread and can determine what is eschatological and what is not? After reading your posts - well parts of them - you make much more sense to me than Stephen does. At least you attempt to connect the dots. Even if I don't agree with you. Which I don't.
Thank you for your support on this point. I wondered if anyone was critical enough in their thinking to recognize that Preterism concerns itself with Jesus' coming as past and as a reasonable explanation. I don't think there is a more reasonable explanation.
IMO, I think he does believe he owns the thread and can discern what is and is not eschatological when in fact, he doesn't have a clue. His worldview bias clouds his thinking.
The part of your last paragraph that intrigues me is that you know enough about Preterism to discuss it, yet you disagree with me. Please reveal why you think partial Preterism is more credible in your opinion. And one more point, do you think Preterism is more credible than all those futuristic views you cited earlier? Dispensationalism is the view that I believe has taken hold in America today and the view that dominates so much of the thinking of secularists and church members today on eschatology.
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@Timid8967
[a] I think that the partial preterist view makes more sense than the full view. The full view seems to lose something for instance. [b] I think it is plausible that Jesus' judgment on Israel can be portrayed as a return. [c] Coming on the clouds as such- but the NT seems to suggest clearly, even if it is nonsense, that his return would also be physical. While accepting that first century Jews probably had a good grasp of language of the OT, it can hardly be denied that they were looking for the physical return of their king.
[a] Finally, after years on this forum, someone to dialogue with who somewhat understands and has read some arguments from my position. Why do you think a partial Preterist view makes more sense? And how does the full view lose something?
[b] Stephen offered a key couple of verses, Matthew 16:27-28. Jesus said He would return in the Father's glory. That should bring to mind how the Father manifested His glory in the OT, and you seem to think that my explanation was reasonable.
Matthew 5:17-18 is also a key when you ask yourself a few questions. Remember, Jesus said not one iota of the OT would pass away until everything written by Moses (the Law/Torah) and the Prophets (basically the rest of OT Scripture) was accomplished. What does that mean? In AD 70, you find that what OT Israel agreed to in Exodus 24:3, 7 can no longer be fulfilled. There is no more sacrificial system for the atonement of their sins, no more priesthood to act as a mediator between them and God, no more temple, no more Holy city, the city of God on earth, no more feast days under the Law, no more genealogical records stored in the temple to trace the lineage of the priesthood. It has all disappeared. The fulfillment of OT prophecy is explained as being fulfilled in every sense of the word. The OT system of worship and OT economy that centred around temple worship is done away with. We now see the greater reality.
Yes, many Jews were looking for a Messiah who would physically conquer, but what did the NT teach, or the OT for that matter? Jesus, first of all, said His kingdom was not of this world. Second, what is contained in the OT as a physical history is explained in the NT in types and shadows of the new. The OT is a type and shadow of a greater truth, a greater reality, the spiritual, which the unbeliever so often misses. Remember, Jesus said that all the OT spoke of Him. Until you understand this more clearly, you miss a lot of what Paul calls spiritual truths that the unbelieving person will not accept. Part of the unveiling of the Messiah, Jesus Christ/Yeshua, in the NT reveals His nature. What is applied to God alone in the OT is now being applied to Jesus in the NT. That is not to say that Jesus and the Father are the same person, just that they are the one true God. What is true of the Father is also true of the Son and the Spirit. In a sense, what is true of your nature as a human being is true of your sons also.
So, on many levels, Jesus fits the bill.
1. He is the appointed Messiah that was promised to these Old Covenant people. Everything promised in the OT is fulfilled in Jesus Christ, and no Old Covenant Savior is possible after AD 70
2. The Old Covenant does not exist after AD 70 because he has made a better covenant with God by shedding His own blood.
3. Between AD 30 and AD 70, there is a transition between two covenants that exist side-by-side for one generation until those promised can enter the new Promised Land. Just like in the Exodus, where Moses leads His people out of the physical land of slavery and bondage, so Jesu (the second Moses) leads His people from spiritual bondage into the land of promise. Hebrews is a juxtaposition of two covenants.
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@Stephen
@Timid8967
PGA2.0 can you tell me - more about the difference between full and partial preterist?But I suggest you do so on another thread. This one is about Jesus failing to show after promising to return before some of those witnessing the promise had passed away..
Timid8967 is correct. Both the Preterist and partial Preterist views are eschatological. It is just the extent to which they go in their eschatology, the former believing all biblical prophecy has been fulfilled, the latter believing some is still future.
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@Timid8967
PGA2.0 can you tell me - more about the difference between full and partial preterist?But I suggest you do so on another thread. This one is about Jesus failing to show after promising to return before some of those witnessing the promise had passed away..That is exactly why he should post it here. PGA2.0 has soundly refuted your premise. I might not agree with him but his discussion is entirely on point. I have asked him to differentiate a particular nuance in his discussion. It adds to the ongoing discussion which is entirely eschatological. It is not highjacking the discussion or moving it elsewhere. You say Jesus failed to return. PGA2.0 argues Jesus did return. It hardly matters what the majority of other people believe - he is arguing from the NT and is doing so ably.just because you pickup on errors from other persons - even if they are well supported does not make them correct or you right. PGA2.0 has provided a well substantiated and if you had bothered to look, a well supported opinion, by a significant part of Christianity. To dismiss his ideas as not being the majority is a concession on your part that you don't know how to respond properly. That is a matter for you. Yet it does not give you a right or an entitlement to ask him to leave the thread. Nor does it oblige him to consent to doing so.If it was me I would attempt to tackle him from another angel. Not try to push him away because he is not agreeing with me.
Thank you for that post!
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@Timid8967
Hi Again,thanks for clarifying my questions. Yes, I have read Days of Vengeance. It is a partial preterist view. Similarly I have read Gentry's. I have a copy of Parousia but I have not read it yet.
I believe he later turned full Preterist, as I heard did John Bray.
I am somewhat familiar with these as my brother was a big fan of some of the authors. Chilton has a really good book on economics. I don't have an opinion one way or the other - as it really makes not a lot of difference to me what the bible teaches. I like to study people though and understand their arguments.
Then have you read Greg Bahnsen on Corenius Van Til? It is a study of worldviews and what makes them tick.
I have to say I don't come across to many full preterists though. Are there many of you and where would you fit in a denomination for instance? Would you also subscribe to FV?
FV? Quite a lot, but mainly in the States. I'm Canadian.
I like the work of David Curtis and Don K. Preston. The Preterist Archive is a precious source of information.
And try not to have such large posts. I read the parts I am interested in - but not everything you write. Remember - currently I am a non-theist and I don't have to subscribe to a particular eschatological position.Can you tell me - more about the difference between full and partial preterist?
Condensed version, Full Preterists, believe all biblical prophecy is fulfilled by AD 70. Partial Preterists believe some prophecy is still to be fulfilled, including the final judgment of Revelation.
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@Timid8967
Post 148 takes care of your objections.it is nice to see some people attempting to provide good material to consider.I think the notion that Jesus returning so soon after he left makes little sense. No wonder we see so much weirdness in the Christian movement.Hello PGA2.0 thanks for including me.
Hi there! I am an equal opportunity debunker. Come one, come all. (^8
No disrespect meant, but I did not raise any objections.
But you did by implication. Here it is:
YOU: "I think the notion that Jesus returning so soon after he left makes little sense. No wonder we see so much weirdness in the Christian movement."
Your objection was to my claim of a soon coming of the Messiah in the 1st-century as actually happening. You agreed with Stephens's take.
I made a comment. Also for transparency, I have not read post 148. I started too but it was far too long and seemed to flow on from previous conversations. It lost my interest very quickly.
Then are you interested in this discussion? You agreed with Stephen, but you did not inquire as to my arguments. Seems like a closed book.
What I think contributes to your one-sidedness is a lack of interest and lack of concentration, perhaps due to our current society's fifteen-minute sound bite segments before interruption on TV. That seems as much as we can handle before we get bored or lose focus.
So soon? Within the span of a generation. What generation do you think Jesus is referring to, and how long does the NT give a generation to be?Please forgive me. I guess I have been blinded by the media - as everyone else seems to have been. Are you saying Jesus has already returned?
Yes, I am saying He has returned. I am saying that is what Scripture teaches. I am saying He returned in AD 70. That is what I argue for.
Are you a partial or full preterist? Do you follow North or Chiltern? The latter in his later life? Or are you perhaps a follower of Gentry?
I lean towards full preterism. No one has convinced me otherwise from Scripture. I like David Chilton, Days of Vengence. Are you familiar with it? I have also read Kenneth Gentry, Before Jerusalem Fell. Have you read that? Another good read was James Stuart Russell, The Parousia. Have you read that or any books on Preterism? I have a small library of about fifty or so books on the subject of eschatology. Is this a subject you are familiar with?
Gentry is a partial-Preterist. I disagree that is the position Scripture leads us.
What happenings do you not believe were fulfilled in the 1st-century before the destruction of the city and temple?The history books say lots. Which particularly are you referring too?
I refer to Josephus and the NT writers.
What does it mean when Jesus said He would "come in the Father's glory?" How did the Father manifest Himself in glory in the OT?It could I suppose mean lots of things. Which way do you propose I OUGHT to take it?
See Post 33, Post 39, especially Posts 43 and 46 for a brief summary. If one does not understand the OT, how are they going to understand the NT? Jesus said He was coming in the Father's glory. What does that mean? You have to understand how the Father manifests Himself in the OT to understand the reference.
In Matthew 24 and Revelation, do you take every verse as woodenly literal, or do you understand some verses speak of the figurative or metaphorical?Do you understand that Revelation is John's version of the Olivet Discourse, taking place at the beginning of the tribulation?I am a non-theist.
Then I take it you do not subscribe to a Creator, and definitely not a personal Being?
Hence I would the narratives of these passages in the sense that the author would be presenting them. I also suppose it depends upon what you mean by literal. If you are referring to the character of the language - I would think literal over mysticism is correct. If you are referring to substance - then its genre is important.
I'm speaking of the kind of language used. Some parts of the Bible speak in plain literal language, and some passages use figurative and metaphorical language. Like any passage, the language usually determines how it should be taken. I could use the word green in two different senses, one literal, one figurative, and you would understand the difference, so why should the Bible be any different? For instance, I could say,
"The grass is green and time to be cut."
or I could say,
"I am green with envy."
I'm sure you would understand which context is meant to be taken literally and which figuratively.
[ The Patmos Vision ] I, John, your brother and fellow participant in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.The same great tribulation Matthew, Mark, and Luke speak of in their version of the Olivet Discourse, John also speaks about, yet he puts himself in the tribulation that was yet to come for the other three authors.Yes, I cannot comment for want of having enough information. It seems to me that the second coming or the return of Christ or whatever you want to call it - is as part of our culture - something that has not happened yet.
Nope, I do not see how you arrive at that from Scripture. Why do you think the NT and prophecy are about our generation or a future generation? What gives you a reason to believe that from Scripture? Scripture is clear; the Second Coming was near, soon, coming quickly. It is not whatever but,
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a worker who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
There is a correct interpretation of Scripture; you have to understand the Author's meaning, not whatever you want to read into it. You have to understand the primary audience of address. We are a secondary audience.
Otherwise - the end of the world would be upon us. [a] There are elements for sure, of God coming with the clouds in judgment that might line up with the destruction of Jerusalem. But is that what Jesus meant? [b] The angels indicate that he will return in the same way he left. [c] And it does not seem plausible they were only referring to the clouds of judgment.
[a] I covered His return in previous posts. To the faithful, His coming would bring reward, but to the unfaithful, it would bring judgment. Simple as that.
[b] How did He leave? I explain that previously too. He went into heaven in glory, and He would return in glory. The glory cloud covered Him from their sight. In other words, the presence of God was with Him, God's glory. The same would be so in His return. God's presence and glory would be with Him.
[c] See [a]. Reward and punishment depending on belief or unbelief.
Tribulation might be like the millenium. 1000 years. or 7 years. Both are numbers of totality. Perhaps the millenium and the tribulation are the same period of time between Christ's first coming and his second one? Or perhaps not?
There is good reason to believe the Millenium was within or the period of forty years. At that time, two covenants existed side by side. The one covenant was about to perish. The link I provided earlier touches on this, as quoted below.
Maimonides
“Jewish writings stipulate that forty years after the coming of the Messiah there will be a resurrection of the dead, and all who are lying in dust will rise to new life.” (The 13 Principles and the Resurrection of the Dead)
“Jewish writings stipulate that forty years after the coming of the Messiah there will be a resurrection of the dead, and all who are lying in dust will rise to new life.” (The 13 Principles and the Resurrection of the Dead)
And here:
Lohse, TDNT
“The idea of the millennium which the divine works out here is to be understood against the backdrop of the Jewish apoc. traditions that he adopts and uses. In the expectation of an intermediate Messianic kingdom which shall precede the end and the coming of the reign of God, Eth. En. 91:12f; 93:1-14; Sib., 3, 652-660; 4 Esr. 7:28f; S. Bar. 29:3; 30:1-5; 40:3, two forms of eschatological hope are combined...” (TDNT, Vol. IX, page 470)
“The idea of the millennium which the divine works out here is to be understood against the backdrop of the Jewish apoc. traditions that he adopts and uses. In the expectation of an intermediate Messianic kingdom which shall precede the end and the coming of the reign of God, Eth. En. 91:12f; 93:1-14; Sib., 3, 652-660; 4 Esr. 7:28f; S. Bar. 29:3; 30:1-5; 40:3, two forms of eschatological hope are combined...” (TDNT, Vol. IX, page 470)
That end came in AD 70. Thus, I see the forty years or within the forty years as the 1000 year reign. A thousand years is sometimes used in Scripture to denote something other than 1000. For instance,
For every animal of the forest is Mine, The cattle on a thousand hills.
What about the animals on the one thousand and first hill? Does God own those also?
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@zedvictor4
So who made up that primary audience?.....Anyone who was gullible enough to listen, maybe.
The primary audience was the 1st-century Old Covenant Jews. Throughout the OT, God warns these covenant people of the coming wrath for their apostasy, that their sins would reach a limit and then comes judgment. John the Baptist, the prelude to the Messiah, a type of shadow of OT Elijah, comes preaching soon coming judgment on Israel.
[ The Preaching of John the Baptist ] Now in those days John the Baptist *came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” For this is the one referred to by Isaiah the prophet when he said, “The voice of one calling out in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way of the Lord, Make His paths straight!’” ...
Jesus then comes on the scene proclaiming the kingdom and that it was with them because He is the king of the kingdom and near in time to its establishment. John makes it clear,
In terms of manipulation and gullibility , the Church of Scientology provides a good comparison.
Oh, what is that? What makes you think they are true? What kind of evidence are you going to produce from their cult? Scientology is different from the NT in which the evidence is outstanding.
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@Stephen
For those who want more understanding on the forty years, see the link provided for different confirmations from different sources:
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@Stephen
it is nice to see some people attempting to provide good material to consider.I think the notion that Jesus returning so soon after he left makes little sense. No wonder we see so much weirdness in the Christian movement.So soon? Within the span of a generation. What generation do you think Jesus is referring to, and how long does the NT give a generation to be?But he didn't did he. And the bible says he didn't. And Peter the lair, and traitor and denier of Jesus, makes up some bullshit excuse for the no show saying 2a day is a thousand years".
I called your BS already.
What does the word parousia mean?
Which generation was Jesus referring to with the words "this generation?"
Which age is Jesus referring to when He said "this age?"
Does the word "see" have only one meaning, physical sight?
What sign did Jesus give the disciples of His coming?
What were "all these things" that Jesus said would happen? Is it reasonable to believe they happened?
Did Jesus restore Peter to His grace?
Is Peter called an apostle and servant of Jesus Christ?
Is Peter known in Scripture as the apostle to the circumcised, i.e., the Jews?
Does Peter say anywhere a day IS one thousand years?
You constantly mislead others on all these points and fail to give an account of my counterpoints. Are you capable of addressing my counters? You seem to believe just because you can state something that it automatically makes is true and correct.
Reader, watch how Stephen yet again dodges all these questions. Do you think he is capable of answering them????
He does not want to exegete any of the Scriptures he posted, just dogmatically tell you what they say and mean to a 21st-century audience. What did they mean to that audience, the primary audience of Jesus' address?
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@Timid8967
Post 148 takes care of your objections.
it is nice to see some people attempting to provide good material to consider.I think the notion that Jesus returning so soon after he left makes little sense. No wonder we see so much weirdness in the Christian movement.
So soon? Within the span of a generation. What generation do you think Jesus is referring to, and how long does the NT give a generation to be?
What happenings do you not believe were fulfilled in the 1st-century before the destruction of the city and temple?
What does it mean when Jesus said He would "come in the Father's glory?" How did the Father manifest Himself in glory in the OT?
In Matthew 24 and Revelation, do you take every verse as woodenly literal, or do you understand some verses speak of the figurative or metaphorical?
Do you understand that Revelation is John's version of the Olivet Discourse, taking place at the beginning of the tribulation?
[ The Patmos Vision ] I, John, your brother and fellow participant in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
The same great tribulation Matthew, Mark, and Luke speak of in their version of the Olivet Discourse, John also speaks about, yet he puts himself in the tribulation that was yet to come for the other three authors.
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@Stephen
@FLRW
You keep posting the same versesThat's correct and you need to read them .. They all say and show Jesus didn't return in the time that he promised that he would. Would you like them again? And you haven't proven that a dead stinking rotten corpse rose from being dead to being alive again in AD 66-70, either. So , when you ready, the floor is all yours, knock yourself out.
To suggest I never read them is disingenuous. I have replied to them repeatedly, and you have continually dodged my replies by reposting the same verses, over and over. They show the opposite of a no-show and that you do not understand how He returned. The NT explicitly says His body did not decompose about the rotting corpse, yet you continually kick around this falsehood. There are seven verses in the link that says otherwise. You also confuse His return with His judgment. It shows me the deep misunderstanding you have of Scripture that you don't seem to be aware of in your constant collapsing of texts and ignoring the greater context. The judgment was from AD 66.5 to AD 70. That is why Paul could write,
1 Thessalonians 2:14-16
14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews, 15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and [r]drove us out. [s]They are not pleasing to God, [t]but hostile to all people, 16 hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always [u]reach the limit of their sins. But wrath has come upon them [v]fully.
To the reader: This verse shows the time of God pouring out His wrath on Israel had begun. The curses of Deuteronomy 28 were in the process of fulfillment. Jesus told His disciples that the days of vengeance would be fulfilled when the signs or happenings He listed had been completed. I could go through those, one by one, to demonstrate that, but it would require more work. These happenings' completion would signify or bring the return of Christ in His glory, the glory of the Father, the parousia. The resulting end, the destruction of Jerusalem, is the most reasonable proof/evidence of the truth of Christianity and return of Christ, or as put by one author,
The Destruction of Jerusalem, An Absolute and Irresistible Proof of the Divine Origin of Christianity
INCLUDING A NARRATIVE OF THE CALAMITIES WHICH BEFEL THE JEWS So far as they tend to verify OUR LORD’S PREDICTIONS By George Peter Holford 1805.
David Chilton, David Chilton - Days of Vengeance on Vimeo is another that lays down the evidence of a 1st-century fulfillment that offers so much evidence Stephen would be hard-pressed to refute it.
A third that would help others understand the coming or parousia is James Stuart Russell, The Parousia, and show how Stephen has no clue what he speaks about regarding His coming. I could list many online authors who do an in-depth study of these verses that Stephen makes such a big deal over without understanding them, but they will suffice for now.
I proposed to Stephen a debate where you, the reader, are the judge as to who has the more reasonable position and whose view is evidenced better. That would mean that Stephen would be accountable for what he says and refute what I say in my counterarguments. Stephen refused to do this but said he would only debate it on the forum. He keeps falling back on the same verses over and over without refuting the counter verses and argument I give him. Is that reasonable? No, it is not. There is no accountability by Stephen here. Instead of refuting my position, he keeps rehashing the same verses over and over again (that I countered in several different ways) as if that proves his point. It does not because he refuses to demonstrate how the Father came in glory in the OT. Jesus said in Matthew 16:27-28 that He would come in His Father's glory. What does that mean? Stephen refuses to disclose what it means or show from OT passages how the Father manifested Himself. He takes "see" to mean physical sight, while it can mean understanding or mental seeing.
What did Jesus say to His disciples when they came to Him on the Mount of Olives after He told them that not one stone of the temple buildings would remain? Well, what were the disciple's questions?
1. When will these things happen?
2. What will be the sign of Your coming?
3. When will be the [a]end of the age?
Matthew 24:3 (NASB)
3 And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the [a]end of the age?”
1. So, we need to know the when. When do Jesus and the NT writers say these things (verse 4-51) will happen? I have shown they apply to the 1st-century and within the confines of that generation. I gave a break down of the ten verses after the disciples ask these questions as to the signs Jesus discloses. No answer from Stephen. He pushes them under the proverbial rug thinking that ignoring such things and repeating his pet verse bolsters his case. It does not.
I asked Stephen, how long does the NT disclose the generation Jesus refers to is? Stephen refuses to answer that question. He understands it does not fair well with his position.
2. I asked Stephen what signs is Jesus referring to in Matthew 24 that signify His coming? Again, no response. This is an important point because if the sign of His coming is being fulfilled, the disciples would know that it (His coming) is near, right at the door (Matthew 24:33). Again, no answer. The fulfillment of these signs and happenings would signify that Jesus is about to return.
Notice that the return or Second Coming follows the fulfillment of "all these things," which in turn brings to a close the age of the OT or Old Covenant. The two covenants existed side by side for 40 years during the transition.
3. I asked Stephen what age Jesus referred to in Matthew 24:3. Again, no answer. This guy keeps neglecting all my counterpoints, all of them. Is that a reasonable discussion?
I asked Stephen to show that these happenings or "all these things" did not happen in the 1st-century. He failed once again to oblige my points. This all points to the weakness of his arguments.
I asked Stephen to prove that "see" can only mean physical sight. No answer, yet this is what he seems to believe.
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@FLRW
The entire construct of the Christian religion is based on the Bible.
The entire construct of the atheist or secular humanist worldview is based on random chance happenstance, and human's as the measure of all things, so what?
Theists are taught to maintain a blind trust in everything their religion teaches, and to utilize broken reasoning where evidence and logic fail to support their assertions – especially with the existence of god arguments.
That is a bogus argument, and you know it. You are clumping all theists together. The Christian religion is not blind faith, even if some Christians blindly trust. It is a most reasonable faith, unlike atheism.
Beginnings/origins are where atheists fail to connect and where they come up with all kinds of assertions and pet theories that don't make sense while they pretend they have the answers.
Without it their whole world would fall apart. The Bible is full of impossibilities but this is the belief in magic which is taught and maintained to avoid such challenges.
Atheism 101 voodoo: Once upon a time, a long, long time ago, the Universe exploded into existence from nothing. No further explanation is required—gullibility at its finest.
To question the Bible is unthinkable to most apologetics. To them, it is the unerring word of their god, despite its irrationalities, shortcomings, contradictions and flaws.
To question how random chance happenstance can do anything, let alone sustain anything, is the big question that goes unexplained.
Your entire argument went south with your current attack, rather than refuting what I said in my last three posts.
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@Stephen
Continue,
When there are many verses telling us that we should listen to the voice of god, who is it that we should we listen to? Jesus's own words? OR PETER a man that tells lies - a man that denied even knowing Jesus three times! Luke 22:59-62? PETER, the traitor and coward that was supposed to be "keeping watch" over Jesus but fell asleep three times! that led to Jesus` arrest, trial and barbaric torturous execution? Matthew 26:40?Jesus restored Peter so that He could fulfill the role that he was appointed for, the apostle to the Jews.So says you, for which you have no evidence or proof. But, doesn't matter what you say Jesus was supposed to have done, we know the exact nature of the man. He was liar and a traitor that had denied even knowing Jesus. So that sb just don't wash.
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer
Jesus told Peter that he would deny Him three times, but He later restored Peter to His grace. I have already documented that for those who are interested. Stephen is ignoring those passages.
Jesus told Peter that he would deny Him three times, but He later restored Peter to His grace. I have already documented that for those who are interested. Stephen is ignoring those passages.
Interesting though that you call "Peter an apostle of the Jews".
I am repeating what Scripture calls Peter, 1) an apostle, 2) to the Jews (Galatians 2:7). Another weak argument on your part that ignores the very writings you profess to know so well.
This would be in the same sense as Jesus being king of the Jews that was sent to "only" to the Jews, I take it.
Reiterated by Jesus Himself and the Gospel writers.
Pilate questioned Him: “So You are the King of the Jews?” And He answered him, “It is as you say.”
Sent only to the Jews? Yes, at the time of His coming, but ,it later went out to the Gentiles because of Jewish unbelief.
He came to His own, and His own people did not accept Him.
He just keeps asserting his favourite verses over and overDo I?What I actaully have been doing is simply quoting from these unreliable and ambiguous scriptures what they themselves have to say on the matter of Jesus' return. I haven't had to "assert " anything. I haven't interpreted anything either. but YOU on the other hand, by your own admission has been interpreting everything for us. This is YOU above saying this , is it not ? >>>> "I offered for my interpretation as biblical".
They are not unreliable or ambiguous. Your thinking is closed to what is said.
"every eye will see him," sayeth the Lord
In what way will every eye see Him?
I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
Does you heart have eyes? That is metaphoric language. In the same way,
And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.
The SIGN of the Son of Man will appear in the sky.
They will see the Son of Man coming ON the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. How do you stay ON a cloud? I already showed you the different verses that speak of seeing the coming and they convey different things --> on the clouds (Matthew 24:30), He is coming with the clouds (Revelation 1:7), come in the glory of His Father with His angels (Matthew 16:27), with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God (1 Thessalonians 4:16).
There is a lot of symbolism in these verses that you need to understand to properly interpret the passages.
[ The Coming of Christ ] And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.
Yet you are still unable to produce one single written eye witness account of Jesus returning on a cloud as only you seem to believe , in AD 66_70
How could I produce an eyewitness when these epistles and gospels were written before the fall of Jesusalem and before His coming?
AD 66-67 is when some believe Peter's epistles were written just before his death and shortly before Jesus' coming.
While YOU are telling the world that Jesus has already returned there are MILLIONS upon millions of Christians that believe his return hasn't happened yet but is imminent. Are they fools and are they stupid?That is between them and God. All I can do is show the reason from Scripture.And between what you believe as apposed to what millions of them believe. I keep telling you, only one of you can be correct. You see, JUST LIKE YOU, they also choose verses from the same unreliable ambiguous book that they believe speak of Jesus' return very soon.
Scripture is the benchmark, not what someone believes if it disagrees with the written word. If you think I am incorrect then give the best evidence you can to prove it.
There is no way that His coming speaks of any other time than during that 1st-century. Soon, near, quickly do not mean centuries later, far, or slow. Jesus defines 'this generation' as He does 'this age.' All the signs can be shown to have happened during the 1st-century, therefore your wooden interpretation of His coming as literal is wrong especially when you understand what the reference means "coming in the Father's glory" means.
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@Stephen
Continuing,
Take a sample of "all these things to happen" from just 10 verses of the Olivet Discourse as Matthew records it:
Matthew 24:4-14 (NASB)
4 And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one [a]misleads you. 5 [1] For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the [b]Christ,' and [2] they will [c]mislead many people. 6 [3] And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 [4] For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and [5] there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pains.
9 [6] "Then they will hand you over to tribulation and kill you, and [7] you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 [8] And at that time many will [d]fall away, and [9] they will [e]betray one another and hate one another. 11 [10] And many false prophets will rise up and [f]mislead many people. 12 And because [11] lawlessness is increased, [g]most people's love will become cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end is the one who will be saved. 14 [12] This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole [h]world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
[1] Many false Messiahs and prophets the NT writers mention, and additional sources like Josephus, Eusebius, and Irenaeus reference them also.
For, some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and a group of about four hundred men joined him. But he was killed, and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing.
Josephus reiterates that Theudas drew a great number to him (The Antiquities of the Jews, 20:5:1). He also speaks of false prophets.
After this man, Judas of Galilee appeared in the days of the census and drew away some people after him; he also perished, and all those who followed him were scattered.
Now a man named Simon had previously been practicing magic in the city and astonishing the people of Samaria, claiming to be someone great;
10 and all the people, from small to great, were paying attention to him, saying, "This man is the Power of God that is called Great." 11 And they were paying attention to him because for a long time he had astounded them with his magic arts.
Gary DeMar notes that Eusebius, The Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius Pamphilus, 2:13, 62 also discusses how some considered him a god.
When they had gone through the whole island as far as Paphos, they found a magician, a Jewish false prophet whose name was Bar-Jesus,
[2] They misled many people, also recorded by the NT writers and Josephus. (see above)
[3] Wars and rumours of wars --> Josephus records the Jewish wars.
[4] Josephus records nations and kingdoms clashing.
[5] Josephus and the NT writers mention earthquakes and famines, none greater than what took place during the surrounding of Jerusalem in AD 70.
The NT also records some of these things.
"Now a famine came over all Egypt and Canaan, and great affliction with it, and our fathers could find no food.
One of them, named Agabus, stood up and indicated by the Spirit that there would definitely be a severe famine all over the world. And this took place in the reign of Claudius.
Gary DeMar lists secular historians recording earthquakes in "Crete, Smyrna, Miletus, Chios, Samos, Laodicea, Hierapolis, Colosse, Campania, Rome, and Judea." Last Days Madness, p80-81
[6] Church fathers, as well as NT writers, describe the disciples handed over to persecution and tribulation.
NT writers:
But Paul said to them, "After beating us in public without due process—men who are Romans—they threw us into prison; and now they are releasing us secretly? No indeed! On the contrary, let them come in person and lead us out."
And when a great dissension occurred, the commander was afraid that Paul would be torn to pieces by them, and he ordered the troops to go down and take him away from them by force, and bring him into the barracks.
[ A Conspiracy to Kill Paul ] When it was day, the Jews formed a conspiracy and put themselves under an oath, saying that they would neither eat nor drink until they had killed Paul.
They came to the chief priests and the elders and said, "We have put ourselves under an oath to taste nothing until we have killed Paul.
After Paul arrived, the Jews who had come down from Jerusalem stood around him, bringing many, and serious, charges against him which they could not prove,
But Festus, wanting to do the Jews a favor, replied to Paul and said, "Are you willing to go up to Jerusalem and stand trial before me on these charges?"
and we labor, working with our own hands; when we are verbally abused, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it;
2 Corinthians 4:8-10 (NASB)
8 we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing; 9 persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed; 10 always carrying around in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body.
For even when we came into Macedonia our flesh had no rest, but we were afflicted on every side: conflicts on the outside, fears inside.
But as for me, brothers and sisters, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been eliminated.
And not only this, but we also celebrate in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;
Therefore I ask you not to become discouraged about my tribulations in your behalf, since they are your glory.
[7] Hated --> There was a lot of hatred by the Jews towards the Christians.
I have been on frequent journeys, in dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my countrymen, dangers from the Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the wilderness, dangers at sea, dangers among false brothers;
For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews,
[8] The falling away is described in the NT, of which 2 Peter 3 is just one instance.
[ Abandonment of Faith ] But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,
[ The Danger of Unbelief ] Take care, brothers and sisters, that there will not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
[ The Danger of Falling Away ] Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
[9] Betrayal.
For we who live are constantly being handed over to death because of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our mortal flesh.
[10] See [1]
[11] A falling away or indifference --> made evident in 2 Peter 3 and other epistles by Paul's constant warnings to not give up, plus John's warning to the churches, especially the church in Laodecea.
Revelation 3:13-15 (NASB)
13 The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’
Message to Laodicea
14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the [a]Origin of the creation of God, says this:
15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
Message to Laodicea
14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the [a]Origin of the creation of God, says this:
15 ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
[12] The NT writers record the gospel being preached in all the world.
Romans 1:8 (NASB)
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ [a]for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the world.
Romans 10:18
18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? On the contrary:
"Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the [a]world."
Romans 16:25-26 (NASB)
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26 but now has been disclosed, and through the Scriptures of the prophets, in accordance with the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;
Colossians 1:5-6 (NASB)
5 because of the hope reserved for you in [a]heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, [b]the gospel 6 which has come to you, just as [c]in all the world also it is bearing fruit and [d]increasing, even as it has been doing in you also since the day you heard it and [e]understood the grace of God in truth;
Colossians 1:23 (NASB)
23 if indeed you continue in [a]the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, [b]was made a [c]minister.
There is a lot more evidence that these things happened, of which I will not get into now for time's sake.
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@Stephen
Still nothing of consequence to debunk what millions of Christians - other than you - believe.You are obstinate. I can only explain so many times before this gets obdurate/non-responsive to my arguments.
So can I. You are the one making this circular..
You keep posting the same verses like a recording WITHOUT addressing my rebuttals. I offer different additional pieces of evidence and remind the reader of what those verses like 2 Peter 3 you continually offer actually convey - the opposite of what you claim. You ignore my rebuttals, not addressing my arguments. Your assertions prove nothing. You keep missing many obvious indicators that confirm that Jesus did come as His promised, such as neglecting to understand what "coming in the Father's glory" meant. You keep neglecting that the signs Jesus said would happen happened as He said they would, every one of them, and they can be demonstrated as happening in many cases via Scripture.
I have only claimed what the scriptures make very clear.. Jesus did not return before a "generation had passed" and neither didn't a single one of those " living" at the time his promise witness" his coming on a cloud".
Yes, He did. I have made it evident that you misunderstand and purposely ignore my rebuttals and proof. For instance, you have yet to tell the reader how the Father came in glory in the OT. That is how Jesus describes His coming to His disciples when He told them that some standing there would not taste death until they saw Him coming in the Father's glory with His angels and coming in His kingdom.
“Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom”. Matthew16: 27-28.“Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened “Matthew24:25-34. Mark13:26-30 says the same as does Luke21:27-32.AND neither of the above happened. AND MAYBE because AS YOU SAY, "to the Lord a day is a thousand year" 2Peter 3:8 which would make it around 1300 AD and well passed AD 66_70.
Okay, what things were to happen? What are things connected to His coming? What are the signs? I can show you evidence that every one of those things happened and the signs were present. Remember, the disciples asked, "When will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the [a]end of the age?” - Matthew 24:3
First, how do the Scriptures describe what a generation is?
First, how do the Scriptures describe what a generation is?
I explained that to you because the comparison between the OT generation in the wilderness (out of Egypt) is being compared to the NT one Jesus referred to as 'this generation.' Specifically, the reader is told how long a generation was in both Hebrews and the OT. If you or anyone, Stephen, cannot identify the generation Jesus was speaking to and how long a generation is, it can fit any generation unjustifiably. But it is justifiably forty years and coincides with the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.
Hebrews 3:7-11
7 Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,
“Today if you hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as [d]when they provoked Me,
As on the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers put Me to the test,
And saw My works for forty years.
10 Therefore I was angry with this generation,
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
And they did not know My ways’;
11 As I swore in My anger,
‘They certainly shall not enter My rest.’”
17 And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose dead bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 And so we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.
Next, Jesus said His coming would be at the end of the age. Jesus only makes mention of two ages, "this age" and "the age to come." Jesus includes Himself and the disciples in "this age."
And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
And his master complimented the unrighteous manager because he had acted shrewdly; for the sons of this age are more shrewd in relation to their own kind than the sons of light.
who will not receive many times as much at this time, and in the age to come, eternal life.”
Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and the women are given in marriage,
If that is not enough, the NT writers also make the age clear:
Where is the wise person? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has God not made foolish the wisdom of the world?
Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away;
the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;
who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,
far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
***
Let us take a sample of all these things to happen from 10 verses of the Olivet Discourse as Matthew records it:
Matthew 24:4-14 (NASB)
4 And Jesus answered and said to them, “See to it that no one [a]misleads you. 5 [1] For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the [b]Christ,’ and [2] they will [c]mislead many people. 6 [3] And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 [4] For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and [5] there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pains.
9 [6] “Then they will hand you over to tribulation and kill you, and [7] you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 [8] And at that time many will [d]fall away, and [9] they will [e]betray one another and hate one another. 11 [10] And many false prophets will rise up and [f]mislead many people. 12 And because [11] lawlessness is increased, [g]most people’s love will become cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end is the one who will be saved. 14 [12] This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole [h]world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
[1] Many false Messiahs and prophets of which not only the NT writers mention but also people such as Josephus, Eusebius, and Irenaeus.
For, some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and a group of about four hundred men joined him. But he was killed, and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing.
Josephus reiterates that Theudas drew a great number to him (The Antiquities of the Jews, 20:5:1). He also speaks of false prophets.
After this man, Judas of Galilee appeared in the days of the census and drew away some people after him; he also perished, and all those who followed him were scattered.
Now a man named Simon had previously been practicing magic in the city and astonishing the people of Samaria, claiming to be someone great;
10 and all the people, from small to great, were paying attention to him, saying, “This man is the Power of God that is called Great.” 11 And they were paying attention to him because for a long time he had astounded them with his magic arts.
Gary DeMar notes that Eusebius, The Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius Pamphilus, 2:13, 62 also discusses how some considered him a god.
When they had gone through the whole island as far as Paphos, they found a magician, a Jewish false prophet whose name was Bar-Jesus,
[2] They misled many people, also recorded by the NT writers and Josephus. (see above)
[3] Wars and rumours of wars --> Josephus records the Jewish wars.
[4] Josephus records nations and kingdoms clashing.
[5] Josephus as well as the NT writers mention earthquakes and famines, none greater than what took place during the surrounding of Jerusalem in AD 70.
The NT also records some of these things.
“Now a famine came over all Egypt and Canaan, and great affliction with it, and our fathers could find no food.
One of them, named Agabus, stood up and indicated by the Spirit that there would definitely be a severe famine all over the world. And this took place in the reign of Claudius.
Gary DeMar lists secular historians recording earthquakes in "Crete, Smyrna, Miletus, Chios, Samos, Laodicea, Hierapolis, Colosse, Campania, Rome, and Judea." Last Days Madness, p80-81
[6] Church fathers as well as NT writers describe the disciples handed over to persecution and tribulation.
NT writers:
But Paul said to them, “After beating us in public without due process—men who are Romans—they threw us into prison; and now they are releasing us secretly? No indeed! On the contrary, let them come in person and lead us out.”
And when a great dissension occurred, the commander was afraid that Paul would be torn to pieces by them, and he ordered the troops to go down and take him away from them by force, and bring him into the barracks.
[ A Conspiracy to Kill Paul ] When it was day, the Jews formed a conspiracy and put themselves under an oath, saying that they would neither eat nor drink until they had killed Paul.
They came to the chief priests and the elders and said, “We have put ourselves under an oath to taste nothing until we have killed Paul.
After Paul arrived, the Jews who had come down from Jerusalem stood around him, bringing many, and serious, charges against him which they could not prove,
But Festus, wanting to do the Jews a favor, replied to Paul and said, “Are you willing to go up to Jerusalem and stand trial before me on these charges?”
and we labor, working with our own hands; when we are verbally abused, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it;
2 Corinthians 4:8-10 (NASB)
8 we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing; 9 persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed; 10 always carrying around in the body the dying of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body.
For even when we came into Macedonia our flesh had no rest, but we were afflicted on every side: conflicts on the outside, fears inside.
But as for me, brothers and sisters, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been eliminated.
And not only this, but we also celebrate in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;
Therefore I ask you not to become discouraged about my tribulations in your behalf, since they are your glory.
[7] Hated --> There was a lot of hatred by the Jews towards the Christians.
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@Benjamin
IF you accept that empirical evidence represents truth, THEN science is already validated. [If you don't, then the Bible isn't valid either, as it is made of matter]
Not everything can be explained by empirical evidence. Some truths are self-evident. Empirically show me the laws of logic. Without them, you can't make sense of anything. The same is true for morality. Could you show me how much goodness weighs? What does it taste like? How much does a concept weigh? Likewise, God is not a physical Being; you have not seen God. How do you empirically verify He exists?
The validity of science is established before you can even open up the book you use to critique it. If science isn't valid, then the Bible isn't either.
But what you do is place science (and really scientism the way you worship it) above God's revelation as more valid. My argument in our debate was that you can't test origins in the same way you do regular science because origins are not repeatable and are not witnessable.
Science, by definition, is more valid than the Bible.
Then you believe science is more valid than God's Word. You see, God inspires the whole Bible. Do you know what that means?
I find it peculiar that anyone of such high intelligence would use the Bible to critique science. It's literally to cut off the branch on which you stand.
What do you know about worldviews? Do you realize that worldviews rest on core or foundational beliefs? From those core beliefs, a whole framework of beliefs is spurred. If you start with the wrong foundation or the wrong building material, the whole structure is weak, and when it is torn apart or comes up against resistance, then the whole structure crumbles.
Matthew 7:24-29 (NASB)
The Two Foundations
24 “Therefore, everyone who hears these words of Mine, and [a]acts on them, will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the [b]floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not [c]act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the [d]floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and its collapse was great.”
28 [e]When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching; 29 for He was teaching them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes.
24 “Therefore, everyone who hears these words of Mine, and [a]acts on them, will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the [b]floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not [c]act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the [d]floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and its collapse was great.”
28 [e]When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching; 29 for He was teaching them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes.
You rely more on human minds and human reason above that of God's reason to give you answers and validity in life. You are building a god for yourself, and that god is science. The biblical God seems secondary to you. Notice that every statement you make lifts science above God.
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord. 9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.
Do you believe that?
Do you really think that science can give you answers for life that are reliable if they are contrary to God's Word? Which scientific view do you propose is correct regarding origins? I showed you how, in our debate, that many astrophysicists question the anomalies of the BB. And that brings up the point of whether the present is the key to the past? We interpret the evidence, and different scientists have different interpretations from the present. Origins are not like everyday science that we conduct in the present, where we can repeatedly verify the same outcome and witness it.
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@Stephen
Still nothing of consequence to debunk what millions of Christians - other than you - believe.
You are obstinate. I can only explain so many times before this gets obdurate/non-responsive to my arguments.
Once again, I will point out to the reader that Stephen did not refute one of the hundreds of verses.They refute themselves simply by not including a single witness that "the lord says will witness " his return..
Refute themselves by not including a single witness? This is presumptive wishful thinking on your part. First, we do not know which of the disciples were alive after AD 70, although there is good reason to believe John was one of them. Second, we do not know if anything written by them was destroyed between then and now or still uncovered. Third, we do not know if the Lord wanted anything kept that His Spirit did not inspire. Fourth, Jesus told them to flee Jerusalem before its destruction.
I have asked you to produce witness from inside or outside of the scriptures that attest to seeing a once dead and rotting corpse, but now alive and well Jesus coming on a cloud in AD 66 - 70.
I have produced first-hand witnesses of the Lord Jesus resurrected, who said what would happen, and you mistook what would happen by your wooden literalism (and liberalism) and not understanding what coming in His Father's glory meant. NOT ONCE have you shown anyone here that you understand how the Father came in the OT in His glory, and you have ignored every verse I gave you that shows how that was - not a physical bodily coming.
YOU HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO DO SO! not a single one.
I have shown briefly, at times (and I have the posts to prove it), that the prophecies of the Olivet Discourse applied to Israel, and in some cases, the disciples themselves. I could go into more detail showing how every one of the prophecies of Matthew 24 has been fulfilled. I could also show you John's account of the Olivet Discourse (Revelation) is all fulfilled as well. If everything Jesus said would come true, then your interpretation of His coming is plain WRONG. Being wrong is something you cannot accept. I understand that.
Not one single follower from this little gang:"every eye will see him,"
See Him in what way? The eyes of their understanding? Will they see the SIGNS of His coming and believe that what He said was true?
Matthew 24:3 (NASB)
3 And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the [a]end of the age?”
For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.
The sign will appear in the sky/clouds. What is a sign?
sign
►
- n.Something that suggests the presence or existence of a fact, condition, or quality.
- n.An act or gesture conveys an idea, a desire, information, or a command: synonym: gesture.
It suggests the presence or existence of a fact used to convey information or an idea.
For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
You have to understand how the days of Noah were.
and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Judgment!
For this reason you must be ready as well; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.
Coming at an hour that they do not know.
Do any of his disciples claim to have seen him at the siege in Jerusalem in AD 66 -70?.
We do not know which disciples lived to see His coming, but everything God needed to disclose to them what already expressed in Scripture. Remember, Revelation is John's account of the Olivet Discourse, as what does John say?
I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
No further revelation is necessary. God has disclosed everything necessary, all the proof, for their and our salvation. If you don't trust God, then so be it. It will remain to see what happens for you.
What about any one of the Mary's? What about Joanna,and Susanna? what about Salome, does she give an account of Jesus being present at the siege in Jerusalem AD 66-70? Do any of them make any mention of seeing their lord at the siege in AD 66 70?
I already explained to you, and you are not comprehending because of your bias; Jesus told all Christians to flee from Jerusalem when they saw the signs that His coming was near. Whether any of those were alive at His Second Coming, 40 years later, is another question. His mother would have been an old lady if she was still alive, like many of the rest of them that you mention.
What about his "secret "disciples Joseph of Arimathea? Or Nicodemus, do they make mention of seeing him at the siege of Jerusalem in AD 66 -70? And what about his own MOTHER!??? ANSWER: NO TO ALL OF THE ABOVE.
See my comments just above yours.
yet also according to YOU and Peter "some" of the people witnessing the promise would live a "thousand years" and would witness the return. You cant have it both ways , and I won't let you have it both ways.
A thousand years? Nowhere can you show that to be the case from Peter's writing. You are trying to force your point, as always.
When there are many verses telling us that we should listen to the voice of god, who is it that we should we listen to? Jesus's own words? OR PETER a man that tells lies - a man that denied even knowing Jesus three times! Luke 22:59-62? PETER, the traitor and coward that was supposed to be "keeping watch" over Jesus but fell asleep three times! that led to Jesus` arrest, trial and barbaric torturous execution? Matthew 26:40?
Jesus restored Peter so that He could fulfill the role that he was appointed for, the apostle to the Jews.
He *said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me?” Peter was hurt because He said to him the third time, “Do you love Me?” And he said to Him, “Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You.” Jesus *said to him, “Tend My sheep.
Just as Simon Peter denied Jesus, so Jesus confirms and restores Peter three times. This all continually shows how much you make up to bend Scripture to your thoughts (eisegesis). You are not being honest with Scripture but continually try to manipulate it.
Galatians 2:8 (NASB)
8 (for He who was at work for Peter in his apostleship [a]to the circumcised was at work for me also to the Gentiles),
It appears to me that if we are to accept that Peter is correct in his thousand years excuse then that alone blows your Jesus ' return a few decades later, clean out of the water, doesn't it.
Again, show me where Peter is telling the believers to wait one thousand years. You can't because you twist Scripture as in every one of your threads, usually by collapsing the context, your most common practice.
He just keeps asserting his favourite verses over and overDo I?What I actaully have been doing is simply quoting from these unreliable and ambiguous scriptures what they themselves have to say on the matter of Jesus' return. I haven't had to "assert " anything. I haven't interpreted anything either. but YOU on the other hand, by your own admission has been interpreting everything for us. This is YOU above saying this , is it not ? >>>> "I offered for my interpretation as biblical".
That, Stephen, is a propaganda technique. What you do is charge someone else with what you are guilty of, turning the tables to make it seem otherwise. You assert all the time. You assert that it is the believers, not God who a thousand years are as/LIKE a day.
That will be the verses where GOD HIMSELF! promised that some of these alive at the time of his promise will witness his return. This didn't and hasn't happened. AS THE BIBLE clearly points out. hence the confrontation Peter has with descendants of those that heard the promise all dead and gone. LOOOOOOOOK! >>>2Pe 3:4 - “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”
Once again, answered by Peter in the greater context. You ignore that because it goes against your constructed narrative. You don't examine the textual narrative but build your own.
It was always going to be the case of apologists such as Peter making excuses to the gullible, ignorant and superstitious of time that would swallow his feeble excuses - hook line and sinker. Peter was a fisherman after all and he cast out this little piece of bullshit on his line for them to bite and swallow >>>You are forgetting brothers that “With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day”.2 Peter 3:8:
WITH THE LORD, a day is LIKE a thousand years. Does that mean a day IS a thousand years? Are you telling us a day is a thousand years?
And I suppose they all, said "ok , I see", and all went about their merry way? And without mentioning the fact that if this indeed be the case then Jesus wasn't dead for only three days but for 3,000FKN YEARS!!!!!!
How do you figure that?
as well as the many proofs I offered for my interpretation as biblical.You offered no "proof" other than cherry picked verses that ONLY YOU believe proves Jesus has already returned in first century AD and your interpretation of anything biblical counts for absolutely ZERO.
No, that is what you are doing - cherry-picking. I have offered numerous different arguments and am willing to offer a whole lot more.
While YOU are telling the world that Jesus has already returned there are MILLIONS upon millions of Christians that believe his return hasn't happened yet but is imminent. Are they fools and are they stupid?
That is between them and God. All I can do is show the reason from Scripture.
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@Stephen
I have told you. There are as many biblical verses that Christians say prove Jesus return hasn't happened yet but will happen soon and is imminent!Christianity.com."So, the question, “Is Jesus coming back soon?” is a resounding yes, and He will return without unnecessary delay. Acts 1:7 confirms the teaching of Jesus in Matthew 24:36 when it says,He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority.”Jesus said this after the disciples asked Him if He was going to restore Israel. The point by Luke in Acts 1 and Jesus in Matthew 24 is that no one knows when He will return, but that He will return."They seem to trump everything you believe and have claimed . Are they stupid?They ignore the primary audience of Scripture and the timeline,I see , so you understand these scriptures much better and more clearer that those millions of Christians that are expecting Jesus' arrival very soon. So are they stupid for not being able to read and understand the bible like you claim to be able to read and understand it?
Yes, I do. I do not ignore the primary audience of the address, and I find out the Author's meaning, not some wooden interpretation that takes a figure of speech literally. I do not ignore the timeline and then try to fit it into a foreign period of time that has no significance to these 1st-century people. I understand the passage as it relates to them. Millions of Christians work from a timeline and primary audience foreign to Scripture.
You seem to keep missing the point that for every verse you quote that you believe "proves" Jesus has already returned, they too quote the same verses and other verses that they believe "prove" his return hasn't happened yet but is imminent. Only one of you can be correct.
No, you miss the point because you want to. You are trying to justify something that you cannot justify. You work contrary to the Word of God.
Here is another example from another Christian organisation saying Jesus' return is imminent and using many of the verses that you also insist on.GET READY! JESUS IS COMMING SOON.This one makes their belief clear ending with the words ;"For the hope we have in Jesus soon return in Christ's name, we ask it.Amen."
Big bloody deal. A Christian denomination is not our blueprint. God's word is. Anything contrary to that is wrong.
Are they stupid too? are they too not reading and understanding the bible correctly? Are they too taking these verses "out of context" ? Or is it that they do not understand ancient Greek?
They are misled by indoctrination into a way of thinking that is contrary to Scripture, just like you are.
Here's a thought, maybe Peter' s bullshite excuse was a mistranslation and when he said: >>>"With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day"2 Peter 3:8" -it was actually was meant to read " and a thousand years are like nearly two days and nearly two days is like nearly like 2,000years" ?
You can't be that naive not to know the difference between figurative and literal language, can you????
I would be interested to know if anybody else reading this fails to understand that figurative language is employed? If so, I suggest you learn the difference.
I keep telling you. Your claims are nonsense and no more provable that any other christian church or organisation.
No, your claims are nonsense, and an organization nor denomination is my standard. God's word is my standard.
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@Stephen
Yes, and YOU also claim that Peter explained " SOON " and " Quick " and NEAR" " by calling "soon" and "quick" and " near" a thousands fkn years!!!!
Already explained to the reader and you, Stephen, and justified several times. You keep denying a perfectly logical and Scriptural explanation. That is your bias kicking in and I believe it is obvious to many who read this thread. You are just stubborn in not wanting to concede your error. It is a matter of pride, IMO.
It never appears to occur to you that all these prophecies have been fulfilled by or In AD 70, and therefore you need to consider that your understanding of His coming is different than what the Bible teaches. That you cannot concede. To do so would be to admit you are wrong. Your pride keeps you from that, IMO.
...........does that translate to thousands of years later and as imminent?It does if we are to believe Peter , doesn't it ! YOU have insisted on using this >>>"With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day"2 Peter 3:8" , to explains why Jesus' didn't appear to those that confronted Peter about Jesus' no show.When there are many verses telling us that we should listen to the voice of god, who is it that we should we listen to? Jesus's own words? OR PETER a man that tells lies - a man that denied even knowing Jesus three times! Luke 22:59-62? PETER, the traitor and coward that was supposed to be "keeping watch" over Jesus but fell asleep three times! that led to Jesus` arrest, trial and barbaric torturous execution? Matthew 26:40?It appears to me that if we are to accept that peter is correct in his thousand years excuse then that alone blows your Jesus ' return a few decades later, clean out of the water, doesn't it.
Where does it say a day IS a thousand years and a thousand years a day (i.e., a literal translation of the verse)? You are neglecting a rule of grammar to make a point. 'As' and 'like' are similes. Similes are figurative language.
"A figure of speech is a word or phrase that is used in a non-literal way to create an effect. This effect may be rhetorical as in the deliberate arrangement of words to achieve something poetic, or imagery as in the use of language to suggest a visual picture or make an idea more vivid. Overall, figures of speech function as literary devices because of their expressive use of language. Words are used in other ways than their literal meanings or typical manner of application."
You, Stephen, fail to recognize the type of language you are dealing with in such a passage.
Simile:
"A simile is a figure of speech in which two essentially dissimilar objects or concepts are expressly compared with one another through the use of “like” or “as.” Simile is used as a literary device to assert similarity with the help of like or as, which are language constructs that establish equivalency. A proper simile creates an explicit comparison between two things that are different enough from each other such that their comparability appears unlikely.
For example, the statement “this poem is like a punch in the gut” features a simile. The poem is being explicitly compared to a “punch in the gut” with the word “like.”
***
So play dumb. I know you understand the difference.
A day is not a thousand years, nor is a thousand years a day. Peter is showing the insignificance of both a day and a thousand years to an eternal God. The purpose of the passage is to show that God is not slow in keeping His promises. The fullness of time of Israel's sins had not expired yet, by the time was near the expiration. Peter says THAT DAY (the Day of the Lord) would come like a thief. A thief steals when others are usually unaware of them stealing. Peter tells the believers that they are to look, keep watch, for the day, the day, that day of judgment, the Day of God, the day of wrath, is near, and it should not surprise them. Thus, these mockers are jumping ahead of the foreordained time and causing division among true believers by saying [1] the day had already come or in this case, where is the coming of such a day? Thus, Peter is telling them and the believers that judgment awaits such people, just like it did during the times of Noah when God destroyed the world in a particular way. Peter tells the audience that a different kind of judgment awaits unbelievers and sinners this time.
[1] 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
2 Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, regarding the [a]coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your [b]composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a [c]message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the [d]apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
Again, another false report, this time stating that the day had already come.
Peter is referring to the day of the Lord in the passage.
3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers [a]fell asleep, all things continue just as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For [b]when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed by being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly people.
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.
A New Heaven and Earth
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and [c]its works will be [d]discovered.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found spotless and blameless by Him, at peace,...17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of [e]unscrupulous people and lose your own [f]firm commitment,
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.
A New Heaven and Earth
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and [c]its works will be [d]discovered.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found spotless and blameless by Him, at peace,...17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of [e]unscrupulous people and lose your own [f]firm commitment,
You appear not to know what the Day of the Lord is. Do you understand that, or must I explain this too? Do you know of the number of places in the NT that speak of that day, or even the OT passages?
Jesus warned of these times that Peter and his audience is living:
And if those days had not been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
Stephen, what are "those days?"
[ The Glorious Return ] “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Those days? Which days, Stephen?
“But about that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
That day? What day, Stephen? Any bets anyone that I get no reply?
1 Thessalonians 5:2-4 (NASB)
2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord is coming just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction [a]will come upon them like labor pains upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness, so that the day would overtake you [b]like a thief;
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@Stephen
They ignore the primary audience of Scripture and the timeline, just as you are doing in making that point. Many verses speak of a soon, near, quick, coming of the Lord.Yes, and YOU also claim that Peter explained " SOON " and " Quick " and NEAR" " by calling "soon" and "quick" and " near" a thousands fkn years!!!!
No, Peter did not. He said a day is LIKE a thousand years and a thousand years like a day, denoting the timelessness of God and that God is not slow in keeping His promises but is waiting so that none of the elect will perish. You, as usual cannot comprehend this because of your confirmation bias and snipping of contexts. Your ears are closed to hearing what I am saying. You just keep repeating your same old stale mantra.
...........does that translate to thousands of years later and as imminent?It does if we are to believe Peter , doesn't it !
No, if you were to believe Peter you would understand that he is explaining that God is keeping His promise to the elect, not wanting any of them to perish. That is why Peter uses the thousand year reference to show that God will act when He is ready and when the fulfillment of time is past. And the rest of Scripture backs up those thoughts. Jesus said that generation would not pass away until everything was fulfilled, and Hebrews identifies a generation as 40 years. The NT mirrors the OT in a spiritual sense. The OT generation perished in the wilderness and never entered the Promised Land after 40 years. The same danger was present to the unbeliever in the NT during this generation. That is made simplistically plain to the reader who is not biased to hearing Scripture speaking to the conscience.
YOU have insisted on using this >>>"With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day"2 Peter 3:8" , to explains why Jesus' didn't appear to those that confronted Peter about Jesus' no show.
I have used it to show two things, 1) that God does things in His time and is not slow in fulfilling His promises but fulfills them when He said He would, knowing that all the elect have not come to faith yet, and 2) you neglect to provide the whole of the context as you always do. Here it is,
2 Peter 3:3-17 (NASB)
The Coming Day of the Lord
3 Know this first of all, that [1] in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and [2] saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers [a]fell asleep, [3] all things continue just as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For [b]when [4] they maintain this, [5] it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which [6] the world at that time was destroyed by being flooded with water. 7 But [7] by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, [8] kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly people.
8 But [9] do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that [10] with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 [11] The Lord is not slow about His promise, [12] as some count slowness, but [13] is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.
A New Heaven and Earth
10 [14] But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which [15] the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and [c]its works will be [d]discovered.
11 [16] Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 [17] looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which [18] the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 [19] But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
14 [20] Therefore, beloved, [21] since you look for these things, be diligent to be found spotless and blameless by Him, at peace, 15 and [22] regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which [23] there are some things that are hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, [24] knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of [e]unscrupulous people and [25] lose your own [f]firm commitment,
The Coming Day of the Lord
3 Know this first of all, that [1] in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and [2] saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers [a]fell asleep, [3] all things continue just as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For [b]when [4] they maintain this, [5] it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which [6] the world at that time was destroyed by being flooded with water. 7 But [7] by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, [8] kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly people.
8 But [9] do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that [10] with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 [11] The Lord is not slow about His promise, [12] as some count slowness, but [13] is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.
A New Heaven and Earth
10 [14] But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which [15] the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and [c]its works will be [d]discovered.
11 [16] Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 [17] looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which [18] the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 [19] But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
14 [20] Therefore, beloved, [21] since you look for these things, be diligent to be found spotless and blameless by Him, at peace, 15 and [22] regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which [23] there are some things that are hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, [24] knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of [e]unscrupulous people and [25] lose your own [f]firm commitment,
[1] Know this, in the last days of which they were in.
[2] Mockers and scoffers would be unbelieving and cast doubt, saying, "Where is His coming?"
[3] These mockers see all things continuing as they were.
[4] These mocker maintain this mockery and doubt.
[5] It escapes their notice that God destroyed the earth once because of unbelief and sin.
[6] God destroyed the world at that time by a Flood.
[7] By God's word the current system of things is reserved for the judgment of fire - fire representing the burning away of the impure.
[8] This judgment will be on these ungodly moickers and unbelievers.
[9] But take note, those who believe!
[10] Time is insignificant to God.
[11] God is not slow in keeping His promises.
[12] As these mockers count slowness.
[13] Because why? Because He is patient to you who believe and to those who will believe, not wanting any of the elect to perish but to repent.
[14] But know this, the DAY of the Lord will come like a thief, as Jesus made clear. Those unprepared would perish with judgment. They were forewarned.
[15] The heavens and earth these Jews knew, what their world revolved around, would be destroyed.
[16] Note: Since they will be destroyed, the believe ought to be holy.
[17] Look for and hasten the Day of the Lord, believer!
[18] The heavens will be destroyed by burning - judgment.
[19] According to His PROMISES, the new system of God's grace through the New Covenant, the new heavens and earth in which righteousness dwells (heavenly country) will be in place.
[20] Therefore looks back to what was said before to form the conclusion which is coming by such word.
[21] The believer is looking for these things and has not been swayed by these mockers.
[22] Regard God's patience as salvation for the elect, even those who have not yet repented but will before judgment comes.
[23] The unbelieving mockers distort the truth as they do the rest of Scripture to their own destruction.
[24] You believers know this before hand because God has made it known to you.
[25] So don't lose your commitment by believing these mockers.
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@Stephen
Show me where the NT includes/refers to anyone two-thousand plus years as witnessing the Second Coming.[a] I didn't ask for a witness some 2000 years later I am asking for a witness just some 4 decades later. [b] As the bible says "some" will not pass away until they witness the [b] once dead corpse of Jesus alive and coming on a cloud.
Once again, I will point out to the reader that Stephen did not refute one of the hundreds of verses I listed as teaching a 1st-century AD 70 return of Jesus. He just keeps asserting his favourite verses over and over without exegeting them. With Matthew 16:27-28, he ignores my point above completely, as well as the many proofs I offered for my interpretation as biblical. With 2 Peter 3:4, I refuted his point by including the focus of Peter's second letter, and how in his first he had stated that Jesus' coming was near. I showed how Peter is refuting the claim made by these scoffers and mockers. He says God is not slow in fulfilling His promises but does not want any of the elect to be lost, so He gives them time to come into the fold. That timeline is the same one Jesus gave before His crucifixion --> 40 years.
[a] Then find out what the 1st-century authors meant. Again, for the umpteenth time, what does it mean when Jesus said He would come in the Father's glory. What does that phrase mean? You keep dodging answering because you are so embedded in your 21st-century mindset you can't understand what happened.
[b] Once "dead" corpse. What are you suggesting, a live corpse? And how does one ride a cloud? Was He going to be riding a white horse on the clouds? Was His voice going to be one of an archangel, or are these just metaphors of judgment, as I have explained in detail, and you did not object once to the many passages I gave in support of such a view.
You are doing exactly what liberals do; they keep repeating, again and again, their SAME narrative until it becomes mainstream palatable for others to go along with their crazy notions.
[a] And the second coming hasn't happen yet in our time,some 2000 years later, so I could hardly produce a witness, now could I? [b] But I may be able to very soon as his return is expected any day now and is imminent according to BILLIONS of Christians.
[a] It was never meant to be thought of as 2000 years later, for Jesus addressed His generation and promised they would not pass away until all the things He said would take place had taken place.
[b] Imminent? Imminent to a 1st century people of address. Christians today are mistaken because they have fallen for Dispensationalism and other futuristic eschatologies that have influenced Stephen's own outlook. He perfectly well understands that Jesus was addressing a 1st-century people about His Second Coming. You can't escape that conclusion without bending Scripture to an eisegetical interpretation, which is what Stephen is doing.
[a] I am asking you where in, or outside of the New Testament does anyone claim to have witnessed a resurrected Jesus Christ alive and well at the siege of Jerusalem in AD 66_70 ? and you cannot give one single instance. [b] Your excuse for that is that three of them were dead. [c] What about the other 69? Were they also dead. And what about all the women in Jesus' movement that I mentioned about, were they all dead too? Jesus said said:[d] “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom”. Matthew16: 27-28.
[a] I have told you repeatedly, which you ignore, no NT canonized writing was written after AD 70; therefore, how can they write about something that has not happened yet? According to early church tradition, I also told you that Peter, Paul, Jude and James are not alive after AD 70. How could they write about something they are not alive to witness? I do not know of any information from the biblical writers preserved, written after Jerusalem's fall.
[b] That is a good reason. Do you have anything you can site from a dead person?
[c] How were they? And how much information from that period do we still have available?
[d] Where do you find the women you identify included in this group? You assume it includes them. Look at the three different records of this passage and show me where these particular women are included.
Matthew 16
Discipleship Is Costly
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wants to come after Me, he must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whoever wants to save his [y]life will lose it; but whoever loses his [z]life for My sake will find it. 26 For what good will it do a person if he gains the whole world, but [aa]forfeits his soul? Or what will a person give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every person according to his [ab]deeds.
28 “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wants to come after Me, he must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whoever wants to save his [y]life will lose it; but whoever loses his [z]life for My sake will find it. 26 For what good will it do a person if he gains the whole world, but [aa]forfeits his soul? Or what will a person give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every person according to his [ab]deeds.
28 “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
Mark 12:34 And He summoned the crowd together with His disciples, and said to them,...9 And Jesus was saying to them, “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God when it has come with power.”
Luke 9:18 And it happened that while He was praying alone, the disciples were with Him, and He questioned them, saying, “Who do the [h]people say that I am?”
...23 And He was saying to them all, “If anyone wants to come after Me, he must deny himself, take up his cross daily, and follow Me...26 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory and the glory of the Father and the holy angels. 27 But I say to you truthfully, there are some of those standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God.”
he also said:“Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened “Matthew24:25-34.Mark13:26-30 says the same as does Luke21:27-32.
Again, who is the 'you' Jesus is speaking to?
Matthew 24
3 And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the [b]end of the age?”
4 And Jesus answered and said to them “See to it that no one [c]misleads you...6 And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed...
...
9 “Then they will hand you over to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name...15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation... 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the [s]Christ,’ or ‘He is over here,’ do not believe him...25 Behold, I have told you in advance...32 “Now learn the parable from the fig tree: as soon as its branch has become tender and sprouts its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 so you too, when you see all these things, [y]recognize that [z]He is near, right at the [aa]door. 34 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."
Can you, Stephen, identify who you is that Jesus is speaking to????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
But it did pass away didn't it? And you cannot find one historical witness biblical or otherwise from the " SOME" remaining that claims to have witnessed Jesus' return on a cloud in AD 66 - 70 , NOT A ONE!
Again, who is the you that Jesus is speaking to????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
We have early church tradition that John was still alive after the tribulation and destruction of Jerusalem. We also know from such tradition that Peter, Paul and James were put to death before the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70. The prophecies from these writers would have come true in AD 70. What was the point of those left in saying, "I told you so?"
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@Double_R
1] To disbelieve in God, you must believe in naturalism or some other ism.That’s not how logic works.
There are three fundamental laws of logic that apply to everyone.
I disagree unless the person is totally ignorant. Two contrary beliefs cannot both be true at the same time on the same thing. Either there is a God, or there is not a God. If there is a God, either this God is the Christian God, or this God is not. God cannot exist and not exist at the same time. This God cannot both be the Christian God and at the same time not be the Christian God.
For any given proposition you can either believe the proposition is true or not believe the proposition is true.
Whether you believe it is true does not alter the facts of its truth or falsity. It IS either one or the other. It cannot be both true and false at the same time.
Not believing the proposition is true does not mean you believe it is false. You can instead say... “I don’t know”.
Because you don't know does not necessarily mean you can't know. "I don't know" is a plea of ignorance. Even so, those who don't know act contrary to a belief in God. The way they live usually reflects their convictions. But, even if you don't know, what is the more reasonable belief to hold? That we are all here because of an accidental random chance happenstance, or that an intelligent almighty Creator has made us? I say in every way the latter. You can't make sense of the former.
Right now in Texas there is a man charged with murder. Do you believe he is guilty or do you believe he is innocent?
I am not aware of the situation. Where do the facts or evidence lead?
I hope you choose choice C; neither, because you can’t possibly extract enough information out of what I just gave you to make a determination. Just as we can’t possibly have enough information to determine what if anything exists beyond that which we have access to.
Not in the case of God. There is sufficient evidence for His existence, and the contrary belief cannot make sense of itself. I often point out to the atheist that not believing in God contradicts the way they live. They live as if there are right and wrong and that such a belief really matters, yet how can it ultimately matter in an amoral universe that doesn't care because it is not personal and conscious.
That is because Evil is not an empirical attribute; it is not...We can debate the problem of evil another time. You brought this up as support for your claim that atheists believe no gods exist. I am simply pointing out that someone arguing that your claim is incoherent, is not making a claim about what does or does not exist. Their only claim is that your argument is incoherent.
There is evidence for the Christian belief. It is not inconsistent when understood.
You are pushing your atheistic beliefs while denying you have any—the absurdity of it all.Making things up about others tends to lead to absurdities.There’s is no such thing as “atheistic beliefs”, because atheism isn’t a belief system no matter how many times you claim it is.
Yes, there is such a thing as an atheistic belief. An atheist answers the same questions the theist does regarding the Universe, our existence, our morality, who we are, what we are, why it matters, etc.
- “Atheism is the deliberate, definite, dogmatic denial of the existence of God. It is not satisfied with appropriate truth or relative truth, but claims to see the ins and outs of the game quite clearly being the absolute denial of the absolute.” (Etienne Borne, Atheism 1961)
- “An atheist is a person who maintains that there is no God; that is, that the sentence “God exists” expresses a false proposition. . . . a person who rejects belief in God. (Encyclopedia of Philosophy, 1967)
- “We atheists believe that nature simply exists. Matter is. Material is.” (Madalyn Murray O’Hair, What on Earth Is an Atheist? 1972)
Andrew Montano lists 15 components of a worldview in his articles on the Naturalistic worldview here:
Atheism compiles with that list.
What I’m pushing here is logic, just as I do in any other forum.
When you push logic, it is helpful to realize its origins. Do the laws of logic exist outside of each one of us, or do we make them up? For instance, is the law of identity something that needs you for its existence or is it independent of you. If it is independent of you, then which human being gives it its existence for logic is a mindful thing? Are they independent of any human being? Do the laws of contradiction ever not apply? (i.e., I am physically alive and at the same time I am physically dead)
Characterize me all you want, claim that I think I am my own God (as silly as that is) all you want. If you actually care about understanding people who think differently than you, perhaps you should focus on that.
You seem to think that I don't know the pitfuls of an atheistic worldview. If there is no ultimate Being responsible for your being and makeup, you become your own, determining what you will and will not believe independent of such a being (your own god). You only have relativism to fall back on in regards to right and wrong. Morality is constantly changing, as shown by examining a nation's belief system and how it changes. What was once thought bad and wrong is now considered right and good. It brings to mind how something can be better. Better in regards to what standard? If there is not a best to compare better, how can you say something is better than it was? Better in whose opinion? Yours? Why SHOULD I believe you? Who are you to decide for me? If God has not revealed, we are all in the boat of moral relativism. That means there is no such thing as better. There is only your opinion instead of my contrary one, and it boils down to who can impose their belief system on the next guy. If you can get enough people to buy into your belief system, you can impose it, that is. (Might makes right, yet there is nothing right about it)
If there is no ultimate, absolute final reference point, what makes your idea of wrongness that opposes my contrary view any better? To have something better, you need a best or else it becomes meaningless. Better in relation to what, and who says?We all do. It is up to each of us to decide for ourselves what we ultimately value, and from those values we derive standards from which everything else is measured.
Just like I said before, you become your own god, decreeing what is right and wrong in your own eyes, perhaps based on the input of other relative, limited human beings. How does your moral preference make anything right? It doesn't unless there is a final reference point that does not change.
I value the truth. I want to know if I’m buying into a load of crap or living my life blind of the pitfalls I am steering towards. By valuing the truth, I have developed a strong desire to understand how logic works, because most false beliefs we hold, and certainly the most avoidable ones, are the result of faulty logic.
If you value logic and truth, you should try and understand what is necessary for both in the first place. How does logic come from an atheistic worldview, one that denies God? Logic requires mindful beings, but which one(s) invented the laws of logic or are such laws independent of any individual? If so, you discover such laws, not invent them.
When a salesman for example tricks you into buying something you don’t need, they do so primarily by appealing to emotion or using other logical fallacies. I value knowing how to spot the BS before I allow it to harm myself.
One thing is sure, either there is a God, or there is not. There can't both be a God and not be a God. Another thing is for sure, either we are the product of a Mind, or we are not. We can't both be and not be at the same time. Either we trace our existence and origins back to natural chance happenstance causes or to a personal being. If we trace our existence in the causal tree back to natural causes, how did the first cause happen, or are we speaking infinite causes? If we speak infinite causes, how do we get to the present, or is time something we make up as finite beings? There are consequences to how we look at the universe, our existence, morality. Are you consistent with where you begin? You do not think of God as a sufficient cause, or you would believe in such a God. Do you deny all God's as a plausible reason for our existence or just the Christian God? Do you have one particular god you see as plausible?
It seems to me that most theists value the comfort that comes with religion.
And most atheists value the comfort that comes from their denial of God. It means there is no ultimate accountability for your actions, no ultimate justice. People like Hitler can get away with moral atrocities with very little or no consequences. And what of justice? A universe without God makes nothing ultimately matter. You live contrary to such views. You do believe some things matter. Thus you are inconsistent with what you believe. There is a glaring contradiction present that you sweep under the rug. You borrow from my belief system that says things do ultimately matter.
The idea that you need a final reference point to tell you what’s right and wrong for example instead of relying on yourself to figure it out I think supports that.
Again, you show that you are your own god, deciding what is right and wrong, with no best to compare it to.
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@Double_R
Atheism is still a theism as far as I am concerned.This is like saying being apolitical is the same as being political, which is an obvious absurdity.[1] Atheism is simply a lack of belief in a God. Anything else is something else. [2] It is true that the belief in the absence of all deities fits within atheism, but [3] that doesn’t make it atheism any more than a chef who also fixes cars makes all chefs mechanics.
[1] To disbelieve in God, you must believe in naturalism or some other ism.
[2] Sure it does.
[3] What does it make it? Theism? No, it is a lack of theism. They deny God, all the while proclaiming they don't. It is part of the current cultural phenomenon - doublespeak.
The problem of evil is logical negation of theistic claims. There is nothing about that which requires empirical evidence.
That is because Evil is not an empirical attribute; it is not quantitative but qualitative. It is a concept about wrongness. Wrong is mindfulness that some people associate with a physical act like murder or a physical act like adultery or a physical act like robbery, or a physical act of bullying, or dehumanizing or discriminating. What about those who do not? Morality relies on justice which relies on equality for all human beings. If there is no ultimate, absolute final reference point, what makes your idea of wrongness that opposes my contrary view any better? To have something better, you need a best or else it becomes meaningless. Better in relation to what, and who says?
The burden of proof is always on the person who makes the claim.
And you have made many claims here.
Since atheism is not a claim it cannot hold the burden of proof.
Is that a claim? I look at the profiles of the different posters and many describe themselves as atheists. You just don't want to expose what you really believe. Are you ashamed to call yourself an atheist?
If an atheist claims there are no gods then the atheist does have the burden, but by that point he had already stepped outside of the definition of atheism.
Atheism is a claim, a worldview, and a lifestyle. The atheist lives as if no God exists. They deny God by most of the things they believe. And then they get into all kinds of complicated arguments against the existence of God just like you are here. You are pushing your atheistic beliefs while denying you have any—the absurdity of it all.
There are atheist groups out there but the overwhelming majority of atheists do not belong to any such group.
Big deal, so what? An atheist is a person who is their own god, proclaiming what is and what should be without a clue of why their view is any BETTER than any other, other than the fact that they like it and hold it. Morality, for the atheist, boils down to a preference, nothing more, since they cannot establish anything other than opinion. Thanks for your opinion!
It’s not about opposing someone else’s beliefs, it’s about combating the nonsense being peddled by much of society which in many cases is very dangerous.
It really is about opposing someone else's belief to bolster their own belief. It is a form of justification and a form of patting themselves on the back. "Look how sensible we are!" They mock the Christian belief because they think it dangerous, but their own belief system has resulted in a lot more danger. They usually do not recognize every human being as having an equal right to life but marginalize and dehumanize the most helpless human beings by putting them to death. That is what abortion does to the extent of making it the biggest holocaust in humanity's history to date. Who knows what lies ahead with the push to do away with God in academia, the arts and entertainment, politics, big tech, and the media while pushing their tolerance and levelheadedness, which is nothing of the sort.
Someone who still believes the earth is 6000 years old is for example, far less likely to accept the findings of science resulting in anti-Vaxxers, climate change denial, etc.
As opposed to some who proclaim they KNOW the earth is 4.3 billion years old until some other scientist finds some evidence that refutes such a claim and once again changes the paradigm as opposed to some who don't KNOW why the universe exists or how it started. There are numerous views that different scientists hold on such matters, but generally, the BB is the accepted current view.
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@Nevets
I can't help but feel Atheism is just yet another theism. Whether or not the word a theism is intentional or by accident is besides the point. Atheism is still a theism as far as I am concerned.
The god of atheism is the atheist. They declare what is and what should be. The problem is that everyone is right in their own eyes, and yet their beliefs often contradict other atheists and everyone else. That is the problem when there is no absolute, objective measure or final reference point any view can be pushed as right. They are naked, and they don't know it. That is the absurdity of atheism.
Whilst a theist usually believes in the existence of deities, an Atheist usually believes that deities do not exist.Atheists usually cite a lack of empirical evidence amongst their reasoning for not believing, whilst apparently forgetting that a lack of empirical evidence does not support an Atheists own beliefs any more than it does a theists.
The problem is that no human being witnessed the beginning of the universe. Thus, they work from the present back to the past. The evidence does not come pre-interpreted, 4.5 billion years old, or 13.8 billion years old. It all works on assumptions, the best limited human beings can come up with, and these beliefs change as the paradigm shifts.
Atheists also tend to cite the problem of evil in their argument and argue that if their was an actual god there would not be the pain and suffering we experience today. But they do so without empirical evidence that this is the case.
Yes, atheists usually recognize evil exists but cannot justify why something is evil without an absolute, unchanging standard and reference point. They don't have one. Why should they care if the universe is all there is? Why do they care? They live as if they do, pronouncing judgment on an evil God. How do they determine evil in such an amoral universe with no opinion on what is right and what is good? They make it up. The problem is they are inconsistent with their belief system.
Other popular arguments include the argument from inconsistent revelations, and all arguments are totally conjectural, and ultimately a matter of belief.
Precisely!
An Atheist also typically argues that the burden of proof lies with the theist. However surely if someone is claiming a belief in something then they also have a duty to provide proof for their belief.
Exactly!
Therefore I would not say that Atheism is any more reasonable then Theism.
They are less reasonable. I say this because it takes more faith to believe what they do - mindless chance happenstance is the reason for the complexity of everything that exists. How do they know this? Mindless chance happenstance sustains the uniformity of nature. How do they know that? They don't; they fake that they do.
The Christian faith is justifiable and makes sense. If such a God described in its pages has truly revealed, then we have a revelation from an almighty, omniscient, objective, unchanging, omnibenevolent Creator. We can make sense of existence. The atheist ultimately can't.
So, what is the evidence for the biblical God. That is what the Bible is about, and it is most compelling.
Certainly an Atheist should feel free to express their opinions on the subject.
Sure, but I have never found one who can justify their belief. Instead, they continually dodge most questions. I will admit that Amoranemix is more willing to do so, but his posts are very complex that it takes a great effort to respond to. I put them aside for a while since I do not have the time to get into them.
However there is no validation for joining a society which sets itself up in direct opposition, and that is exactly what Atheism has became. To be an Atheist is to be part of a society which opposes the beliefs of others without empirical evidence to support their disbelief.
I believe you are dead-on right for most of this!
What has atheism to offer? Nothing. They pretend they know the truth. Ultimately, you are brought into this meaninglessness from such a position, and you make an exception that some things do matter but once again when you are dead, nothing matters again. The mystery is why they make it matter now? They are inconsistent with their ultimate belief, and when you find such inconsistency, beware. There is so much contradiction in what they believe, and secretly they borrow from the Christian worldview usually without knowing it.
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@Stephen
"every eye will see him,"Do any of his disciples claim to have seen him at the siege in Jerusalem in AD 66 -70?. What about any one of the Mary's? What about Joanna,and Susanna? what about Salome, does she give an account of Jesus being present at the siege in Jerusalem AD 66-70? Do any of them make any mention of seeing their lord at the siege in AD 66 70?What about his "secret "disciples Joseph of Arimathea? Or Nicodemus, do they make mention of seeing him at the siege of Jerusalem in AD 66 -70? And what about his own MOTHER!??? ANSWER: NO TO ALL OF THE ABOVE!!!I answered all these questions in Post 126 for those who are observant.Would you like the question again.
Questions:
1) Do any of his disciples claim to have seen him at the siege in Jerusalem in AD 66 -70?
2) What about any one of the Mary's?
3) What about Joanna and Susanna?
4) What about Salome? Does she give an account of Jesus being present at the siege in Jerusalem AD 66-70?
5) Do any of them make any mention of seeing their lord at the siege in AD 66 70?
6) What about his "secret "disciples Joseph of Arimathea?
7) Or Nicodemus, do they make mention of seeing him at the siege of Jerusalem in AD 66 -70?
8) And what about his own MOTHER!???
you are misrepresenting the narrative. Jesus said some.You "replied that there were 3 dead" so couldn't have witnessed the second coming, which again shows Jesus's promise that everyone standing and alive at the time of the promise was complete BS. and then there is the point of "this generation NOT passing away" .
We know of three writers of the NT who were now dead, granting that the NT writer James is the bother of Jesus. Each of these, Peter, Paul, and James, we are told, died before AD 70, yet we know the early church fathers said that John lived longer, and I'm not sure of the other NT writers like Luke or Mark Jude.
To your point, Jesus promised that EVERYONE standing and alive at the promise would be alive at the Second Coming is plain wrong. You are trying to manipulate the texts yet again. Here is the verse in question:
Matthew 16:28 (NASB)
28 “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
28 “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
27 For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every person according to his [a]deeds.
NOW: What about any one of the Mary's? Do any of them give an account of Jesus being present at the siege in Jerusalem AD66_70
Show me that they were alive at this time for them to give an account (forty years after Jesus' crucifixion) and that if they did, their account was preserved.
What about Joanna,and Susanna? what about Salome, does she give an account of Jesus being present at the siege in Jerusalem AD 66-70?
Are you speaking of apocryphal writings or something they themselves wrote?
Do any of them make any mention of seeing their lord at the siege in AD 66 70?What about his "secret "disciples Joseph of Arimathea? Or Nicodemus, do they make mention of seeing him at the siege of Jerusalem in AD 66 -70? And what about his own MOTHER!???
I don't know of any credible source and no canonized account that lists them as being alive in AD 70.
You have not a single "eye witness" in or outside of scripture to this second coming that you insist had already taken place in AD 66-70. But choose to cherry pick verses to fit your own version from the unreliable and ambiguous scriptures simply to suite your own narrative. You have proven nothing.
None of the Gospels or epistles were written after AD 70, so how could they record something that none of them were there to witness, having fled per the warning of the Lord. Yet every gospel and almost every epistle records the warning of a soon-coming judgment, the judgment in which Jesus would return in judgment. The Jews would witness the judgment of God in AD 70 when the Old Covenant was abolished completely and replaced solely by a better covenant.
Hebrews 8:13 (NASB)
13 [a]When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is [b]about to disappear.
13 [a]When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is [b]about to disappear.
In 2 Corinthians 3, Paul notes the transition taking place even while the first covenant was still in operation.
7 But if the ministry of death, engraved in letters on stones, came [c]with glory so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness excel in glory. 10 For indeed what had glory in this case has no glory, because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if that which fades away was [d]with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.
At the time of Paul's writing, the Old Covenant was fading away, being replaced with the new and better covenant.
14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil [e]remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their hearts; 16 but whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 But we all, with unveiled faces, looking as in a mirror at the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
The transformation was taking place from the old to the new. A veil prevents those of the OT from seeing the everlasting glory that is removed in Jesus Christ.
3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled [a]to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this [b]world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that [c]they will not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants [d]on account of Jesus.
I have told you. There are as many biblical verses that Christians say prove Jesus return hasn't happened yet but will happen soon and is imminent!
Imminent to whom? To those during the 1st-century. You can't show otherwise.
Here is one single example of hundreds that do not agree with YOU. And that do as YOU do and quote verses from scripture that they - just like YOU - believe proves their case that Jesus' return is imminent. : Fill your boots!Christianity.com."So, the question, “Is Jesus coming back soon?” is a resounding yes, and He will return without unnecessary delay. Acts 1:7 confirms the teaching of Jesus in Matthew 24:36 when it says,He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority.”Jesus said this after the disciples asked Him if He was going to restore Israel. The point by Luke in Acts 1 and Jesus in Matthew 24 is that no one knows when He will return, but that He will return."
Show me where the NT includes/refers to anyone two-thousand plus years as witnessing the Second Coming.
The Bible is our blueprint, not some denomination.
They seem to trump everything you believe and have claimed . Are they stupid?
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"every eye will see him,"Do any of his disciples claim to have seen him at the siege in Jerusalem in AD 66 -70?. What about any one of the Mary's? What about Joanna,and Susanna? what about Salome, does she give an account of Jesus being present at the siege in Jerusalem AD 66-70? Do any of them make any mention of seeing their lord at the siege in AD 66 70?What about his "secret "disciples Joseph of Arimathea? Or Nicodemus, do they make mention of seeing him at the siege of Jerusalem in AD 66 -70? And what about his own MOTHER!??? ANSWER: NO TO ALL OF THE ABOVE!!!
I answered all these questions in Post 126 for those who are observant.
Peter, Paul, and James were martyred before AD 70So they didn't live to see the second coming as Jesus promised they would , then.
Again, you are misrepresenting the narrative. Jesus said some. We don't know who the some are, except we have a good indication from Scripture and the early church fathers John was among that list. We also know that the high priest would have experienced the Son of Man seated at the Father's right hand by the judgment that took place in AD 70 and the times leading up to that judgment.
And what about the other 69 ? Luke 10:1-23 Jesus Sends Out the Seventy-Two.
10:1 Now after this the Lord appointed [a]seventy-two others, and sent them in pairs ahead of Him to every city and place where He Himself was going to come.
We are not privy to who they (the seventy-two) are.
Concerning the twelve disciples,
Matthew 10:23 “But whenever they persecute you in [r]one city, flee to the [s]next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.
Jesus is telling the twelve that they will not have finished going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes in judgment and with His reward for the faithful. But Jesus also told three of the twelve these words,
28 “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
There is good evidence to believe John was one of the three still alive at the Second Coming, for we know that Peter and James were killed near or at the beginning of the tribulation. That is why they too could write that the day was near. They understood the signs. They could see the signs all around them. They knew Jesus was in His kingdom. The cloud judgment had begun while Peter and Paul were alive going through the cities of Israel, as Paul said to the Thessalonians,
hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always reach the limit of their sins. But wrath has come upon them fully.
Paul uses the present tense to signify that judgment had come upon them fully. The wrath of God was being poured out on them during the three and a half years before the fulfillment of all that was written.
Luke 21:20-24 (NASB)
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then [a]recognize that her desolation is near. 21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are inside [b]the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter [c]the city; 22 because these are days of punishment, so that all things which have been written will be fulfilled. 23 Woe to those women who are pregnant, and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the [d]land, and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then [a]recognize that her desolation is near. 21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are inside [b]the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter [c]the city; 22 because these are days of punishment, so that all things which have been written will be fulfilled. 23 Woe to those women who are pregnant, and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the [d]land, and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
All that was prophesied in the OT still to be fulfilled would be fulfilled by AD 70. Everything!
Jesus is telling His disciples that those still alive would recognize Jerusalem's destruction when Rome surrounded the city. There was a small period in which they would be able to flee before it was too late to flee.
Do you know which disciples Jesus is specifically addressing in the Olivet Discourse or are you again ignorant of that?
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@Stephen
Continued,
Paul could say to the Thessalonians,
1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 (NASB)
14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews, 15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and [a]drove us out. [b]They are not pleasing to God, [c]but hostile to all people, 16 hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always [d]reach the limit of their sins. But wrath has come upon them [e]fully.
Paul and Jude also said there would be mockers in the last days. Last days of what? Again, the last days of the Old Covenant.
1 Timothy 4 (NASB)
Abandonment of Faith
4 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will [a]fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.
4 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will [a]fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.
that they were saying to you, “In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts.”
‘Look, you scoffers, and be astonished, and perish; For I am accomplishing a work in your days, A work which you will never believe, though someone should describe it to you.’”
And considering all these things, Peter's second letter begins with a reminder of his first letter and the prophets' words.
3 Beloved, this is now the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of a reminder, 2 to remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles.
Well, what of the reminder about the prophets? On the day of Pentecost, Peter, in his first sermon, quoted Joel the prophet.
Acts 2:16 but this is what has been spoken through the prophet Joel:
17 ‘And it shall be in the last days,’ God says,
‘That I will pour out My Spirit on all [p]mankind;
And your sons and your daughters will prophesy,
And your young men will see visions,
And your old men will [q]have dreams;
18 And even on My male and female [r]servants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days,
And they will prophesy.
19 And I will [s]display wonders in the sky above
And signs on the earth below,
Blood, fire, and [t]vapor of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood,
Before the great and glorious day of the Lord comes.
21 And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’
22 “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a Man [u]attested to you by God with [v]miracles and wonders and [w]signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— 23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of [x]godless men and put Him to death. 24 [y]But God raised Him from the dead, putting an end to the [z]agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held [aa]in its power. 25 For David says of Him,
‘I saw the Lord continually before me,
Because He is at my right hand, so that I will not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart was glad and my tongue was overjoyed;
Moreover my flesh also will live in hope;
27 For You will not abandon my soul to Hades,
28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of gladness with Your presence.’
So much for your theology about Jesus experiencing decay.
And Peter applies the prophecy of Joel to that generation. He says in the last days and applies them to the people present. He also speaks of judgment in apocalyptic language. Then in Peter's second sermon, he says,
Acts 3:12 But when Peter saw this, he replied to the people, “Men of Israel, why are you amazed at this, or why are you staring at us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made him walk? 13 The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His [d]servant Jesus, the one whom you handed over and disowned in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release Him. 14 But you disowned the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15 but put to death the [e]Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, [f]a fact to which we are witnesses. 16 And on the basis of faith in His name, it is [g]the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all.
17 “And now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers also did. 18 But the things which God previously announced by the mouths of all the prophets, that His [h]Christ would suffer, He has fulfilled in this way. 19 Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the [i]Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the [j]period of restoration of all things, about which God spoke by the mouths of His holy prophets from ancient times. 22 Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your countrymen; to Him you shall listen regarding everything He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul that does not listen to that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 And likewise, all the prophets who have spoken from Samuel and his successors onward, have also announced these days. 25 It is you who are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God ordained with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 26 God raised up His [k]Servant for you first, and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways.”
17 “And now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers also did. 18 But the things which God previously announced by the mouths of all the prophets, that His [h]Christ would suffer, He has fulfilled in this way. 19 Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the [i]Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the [j]period of restoration of all things, about which God spoke by the mouths of His holy prophets from ancient times. 22 Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your countrymen; to Him you shall listen regarding everything He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul that does not listen to that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 And likewise, all the prophets who have spoken from Samuel and his successors onward, have also announced these days. 25 It is you who are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God ordained with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 26 God raised up His [k]Servant for you first, and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways.”
The restoration of all things. Did you get that? What does that mean to you, Stephen? Am I going to once again have silence from your part in explaining it? Do you understand what it means? Notice that all the prophets announced THESE DAYS.
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@Stephen
How many times!? I too agree that Jesus was still around in AD 70. I believe there was every chance that he was present at the siege of Jerusalem.What I categorically WON'T be convinced of is that his dead, stinking and rotting corpse came back to life, shared a meal, went up into the clouds, came back down and made himself know that -Revelation 1:7"every eye will see him," present at the siege of Jerusalem in AD 66 - 70.And you have proven nothing at all as much as you believe you have.Exactly, you won't believe He rose from the dead and was taken into heaven in a cloud of glory.So you don't have any evidence then. Well why am I not surprised?Another tactic used to subconsciously implant in others that I don't have evidence.My, you are getting almost paranoid. Are you saying I am leading "the people astray" . Are you saying that those reading here do not have their own minds? And are you saying that the people that believe Jesus' return is imminent any day now, stupid and confused? You really are holier than thou , aren't you.
I'm saying I see you using propaganda techniques of repetition and changing the narrative by misrepresenting the written narrative. You take verses out of context to influence others into thinking you are right when you haven't exegeted the passages. For instance, 2 Peter speaks of scoffers, false teachers, and false prophets who deny Jesus' coming is near ("Where is His coming?") because they have been waiting a long time and do not see God as keeping His promises. They forget that Jesus gave them a generation to repent, and the time is getting close to expiring. You think because Peter identifies scoffers and mockers that this proves Jesus did not return as promised, but you fail to understand the nature of the coming. Peter, like every NT author, prophesied that the coming was near. Thus, like you, these scoffers influence others by a false narrative that Peter addresses.
As I said before, every NT author speaks of the last days. Last days of what? I asked you this before, but you failed to respond. I will tell the reader what that means. It is the last days of the Old Covenant when the two covenants are operating side by side. There is a transition taking place that will be complete when God's judgment of these OT people is complete. That fact can be easily established by the numerous passages that speak of such things. Daniel was told, "24 “Seventy [u]weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to [v]finish the wrongdoing, to [w]make an end of sin, to make atonement for guilt, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and [x]prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place."
All those prophetic words looked forward to the Lord Jesus Christ and the end of the Old Covenant age. Daniel is told to seal up the prophetic message until the time of the end of that age.
Daniel 12
12 “Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting [a]contempt. 3 And [b]those who have insight will shine like the glow of the [c]expanse of heaven, and those who [d]lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. 4 But as for you, Daniel, keep these words secret and seal up the book until the end of time; many will roam about, and knowledge will increase.”
The end of the time of the OT, a time for Daniel's people. Who are Daniel's people?
6 And someone said to the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream, “How long will it be until the end of these wonders?” 7 And I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream, [e]as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a [f]time, [g]times, and half a [h]time; and as soon as [i]they finish smashing the [j]power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.
The time will be complete once the power of the Holy people is shattered. When Peter writes that time is near, as I will show you shortly. That prophecy by Daniel is completed in AD 70. In AD 70, there is no more temple, no more priesthood, no more atonement for sins by the blood sacrifice required in the Law of Moses, no more feast days. The OT economy no longer exists after that time.
9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words will be kept secret and sealed up until the end time. 10 Many will be purged, [l]cleansed, and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but [m]those who have insight will understand. 11 And from the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination [n]of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who is patient and attains to the 1,335 days! 13 But as for you, go your way to the [o]end; then you will rest and [p]rise for your allotted portion at the end of the [q]age.”
Daniel is told these prophecies are not for his time but the time of the end. End of what? Again, the end of the OT system of worship. God was going to replace that system with a better way. Notice that the wicked will keep acting wickedly, heaping judgment upon themselves, the very thing that Peter speaks about in 2 Peter 2:1-3. Daniel is told to go his way until the resurrection at the end of the age.
You should be asking, "end of what age?"
In his first letter, Peter emphasizes judgment is near.
1 Peter 1:5 (NASB)
5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Last time of what? The last times of the Old Covenant age.
1 Peter 4:5 (NASB)
5 but they will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
5 but they will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
Judgment was NEAR.
1 Peter 4:7 (NASB)
7 The end of all things [a]is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of [b]prayer.
7 The end of all things [a]is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of [b]prayer.
The end of all things OT is near.
1 Peter 4:17 (NASB)
17 For it is time for judgment to begin [a]with the household of God; and if it begins [b]with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
17 For it is time for judgment to begin [a]with the household of God; and if it begins [b]with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
Peter says it IS TIME and warns of the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel. So that is the setting of Peter's second letter too. Because the time of His coming is longer than THEY anticipated, some mockers are bringing into question whether He will come. Peter sets the record straight by reminding them of what he wrote in his first letter and telling the FAITHFUL that God is not slow in keeping His promises but wants none of the elect to perish. In other words, the generational timeframe is not quite up. In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus said to His disciples that they would know when the judgment is right at the door by the signs of the times.
so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.
Jesus said they would not know when He was speaking know the hour, no man would, (for you do not know which day your Lord is coming...for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will) but when the Spirit of truth comes He would bring to their minds all truth. Jesus compares the scoffing at that time to the scoffing at Noah's time, where they mocked Noah just before judgment.
36 “But about that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 For [ab]the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not [ac]understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
"Just like the days of Noah." What were those days like? You have to read about them to find out. Peter said,
who once were disobedient when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
About that hour, 1 John 2:18 he tells the reader the hour is upon them.
Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.
They know it is the last hour. The countdown to judgment had just about arrived.
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@Stephen
What I categorically WON'T be convinced of is that his dead, stinking and rotting corpse came back to life, shared a meal, went up into the clouds, came back down and made himself know that -Revelation 1:7"every eye will see him," present at the siege of Jerusalem in AD 66 - 70.And you have proven nothing at all as much as you believe you have.Exactly, you won't believe He rose from the dead and was taken into heaven in a cloud of glory.So you don't have any evidence then. Well why am I not surprised?
Another tactic used to subconsciously implant in others that I don't have evidence. I have been presenting you with evidence all along. So stop the bull. The evidence for Preterism is overwhelming compared to any futurist view. The evidence shows that He did come in glory in AD 70, and the Jews understood His coming.
If you want to be so doggone literal instead of recognizing how the 1st-century would understand the references, you have a big problem with your theology, which was pointed out in the first link I gave you in Post 118.
Jesus was to return in the same way or manner they saw Him go into heaven, in the glory of the Father, the Shekinah cloud glory.
How would they know He had returned? When the judgment took place, they would understand (see) that He was seated at the Father's right hand, making His enemies His footstool, as prophecies. If you want to get into His return, they are various Scriptures that speak of that return, and you can't say definitely they are a physical bodily manifestation because of all the figurative language in them.
Dan Darey makes the point in the first part, as I noted in Post 118, by listing the Scriptures below.
Matthew 16:27
“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels…”
1 Thessalonians 4:16
“For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God…”
2 Thessalonians 1:7
“…when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire”
Revelation 1:7
“Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him….”
Revelation 19
“And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True…”
Is He coming on a white horse? Did the disciples see Him ascend on a white horse?
Is He coming in a flaming fire? Did His disciples see Him ascend in a flaming fire?
Did He ascend with the voice of an archangel and trumpets blowing?
No, these verses speak of His glory and judgment if you understood the OT references of such things as a flaming fire.
"every eye will see him return," Revelation 1:7Do any of his disciples claim to have seen him at the siege in Jerusalem in AD 66 -70?
Why would you ask such a question? Peter, Paul, and James were martyred before AD 70, and every NT book was a warning of soon-coming judgment, not the aftermath other than a description of the heavenly country and kingdom. Peter and Paul were put to death between 64-68 AD, per church tradition, so none of their epistles can be written after that time. Revelation ends with these words,
Revelation 22:17-21
"17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires, take the water of life without cost.
18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and [j]from the holy city, which are written in this book.
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with [k]all. Amen."
18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and [j]from the holy city, which are written in this book.
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with [k]all. Amen."
Revelation is written about a mainly Jewish judgment for it is another take on the Olivet Discourse.
Nothing else needs to be added to the Bible. It has everything necessary for salvation.
What about any one of the billion Mary's that hung around with him, did any one of them mention his return? What about Joanna,and Susanna? what about Salome, does she give an account of Jesus being present at the siege in Jerusalem AD 66-70?
Whether they mentioned anything or not, these canonized accounts are the ones that God preserved for our benefit and salvation; no others were needed.
Do any of them make any mention of seeing their lord at the siege in AD 66 70?
What makes you think any were in Jerusalem at that time? They were warned to flee before Jerusalem was destroyed.
What about his "secret "disciples Joseph of Arimathea? Or Nicodemus, do they make mention of seeing him at the siege of Jerusalem in AD 66 -70? And what about his own MOTHER!??? ANSWER: NO TO ALL OF THE ABOVE!!!
It was the apostles who were anointed with the Holy Spirit to communicate the gospel. God preserved what writings He needed so that we could know of this great salvation.
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@Stephen
I don't care if you don't believe them. I am simply pointing out to you what it is that the scriptures actually DO SAY and not what I want them to say AND CERTAINLY NOT WHAT YOU WANT THEM TO SAY!How was Jesus to return...IN THE FATHER'S GLORY. How did the Father come in glory, for the umpteenth time?Define glory
First, tell me how the Father is described as coming in His glory in the OT.
You ignore the context, as I have pointed out many times.Its always the other side that doesn't get the "context" isn't it?
You isolate verses and ignore the rest of the context, as I have shown many times now.
He will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” <<<<<<<<<<hasn't happened has it?You're dead mistaken. One verse does not make doctrine.No that will be the bible that is mistaken, then you see, those are not my words, they are words taken directly from your own unreliable scriptures.HERE>>>Acts 1:11Bare assertions.No they are biblical facts.Your interpretation is not the biblical fact.I haven't "interpreted" anything.. I have clearly repeated what it is the scripture themselves actually say. I haven't added my own opinion of what is being conveyed and I have certainly not taken anything away."every eye will see him,"
Yes, you have.
Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
What does it mean to come with or on the clouds? Does the Bible explain such language further? Yes, it does. Clouds speak of the glory of God and the judgment of God.
Who pierced Him? It was attributed to the nation of Israel, per Zechariah 12:10. It says "tribes of the earth." What does that mean? Does it mean literally every tribe on earth, or is it a specific relationship to the twelve tribes of the land of Israel? Can earth mean land? Obviously, when reading Zechariah 12, it means the tribes of the land of Israel. Revelation 1:7 alludes to two Scriptures, Daniel 7:13-14 and Zechariah 12:10. The nation of Israel handed over their Messiah to be pierced and put to death. Jesus told them that the blood of all their prophets and wise men who be required of this generation because they had heaped up the cup of God's wrath to the fullest extent when they crucified His Son.
and you say, ‘If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’
so that upon you will fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
Now when Pilate saw that he was accomplishing nothing, but rather that a riot was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd, saying, “I am innocent of this Man’s blood; you yourselves shall see.”
And all the people replied, “His blood shall be on us and on our children!”
They condemned themselves. Even so, Jesus gave them a 40 year period of grace.
Do any of his disciples claim to have seen him at the siege in Jerusalem in AD 66 -70?
The evidence is strong to believe the NT writings are all complete before AD 70. That is most reasonable to believe, and you can't reasonably show otherwise. Peter and Paul are martyred under Nero's reign. There is no reference to the most important event in the history of Israel in the NT as already happening. Their whole system of worship, everything their economy revolved around, was destroyed in AD 70.
Kenneth Gentry, Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation and John A.T. Robinson, Redating the NT document the evidence nicely. If I was a betting man I would bet you have never read either book.
What about any one of the Mary's? What about Joanna,and Susanna? what about Salome, does she give an account of Jesus being present at the siege in Jerusalem AD 66-70? Do any of them make any mention of seeing their lord at the siege in AD 66 70?What about his "secret "disciples Joseph of Arimathea? Or Nicodemus, do they make mention of seeing him at the siege of Jerusalem in AD 66 -70? And what about his own MOTHER!??? ANSWER: NO TO ALL OF THE ABOVE!!!
What specific point in this video do you want me to respond to?
What is your point here? Three signs? What do you want to discuss about them? Please be more specific.I have said that just like YOU keep reposting biblical verse after biblical verse that you believe proves Jesus has already returned, they too contain BIBLE passages and verses that predict Jesus' imminent return that hasn't happened yet. YOU can take what you like from them, I don't care.What do you want me to take away from your link and discuss? I am not going to squelch every fire you start. Be specific.I have been specific. You just don't agree with them.I have said that just like YOU keep reposting biblical verse after biblical verse that you believe proves Jesus has already returned, they too contain BIBLE passages and verses that predict Jesus' imminent return that hasn't happened yet. YOU can take what you like from them, I don't care.
Mention the one you think best refutes His coming in AD 70.
So. Stop crying and stamping your feet . You haven't proven anything at all and never can.I can't prove anything to someone who will not be convinced. For others who take this seriously, please investigate further. Perhaps they will understand the truth of the matter of which the Preterist speaks. The Second Coming was in AD 70.How many times!? I too agree that Jesus was still around in AD 70. I believe there was every chance that he was present at the siege of Jerusalem. What I categorically WON'T be convinced of is that his dead, stinking and rotting corpse came back to life, shared a meal, went up into the clouds, came back down and made himself know that -Revelation 1:7"every eye will see him," present at the siege of Jerusalem in AD 66 - 70.And you have proven nothing at all as much as you believe you have.
Exactly, you won't believe He rose from the dead and was taken into heaven in a cloud of glory. You deny perhaps hundreds of NT passages that tell us that Jesus died. Instead, you fantasize about Him remaining alive based on what?
You are a closed book. Your mind is closed to the evidence. Your confirmation bias and anger stop you from understanding or considering the opposite.
You need first of all to prove that a dead and rotting stinking 3 day old corpse was returned to life. <<<<<<<<<<<THAT should be your starting point if you want to convince me of anything.
I won't convince you of anything. All I can do is show others the unreasonableness of what you believe.
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@Stephen
You have to give justification for your point of view,I did you clown. I quoted the bible just as you have done.HERE>>>. “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”2Peter 3:4
Please, I'll ask you again (second time), refrain from the ad homs.
You refuse to consider the whole context of 2 Peter or his first letter either.
2 Peter 1:16 For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.
Peter makes it known to the believer that they did not follow clearly devised tales. He was an eyewitness of Jesus' glory when He was taken into the Shekinah glory. There is a contrast between true believers and those who profess belief. Peter is telling the true believer that the Lord is not slow in keeping His promises, not wanting any of them to perish.
2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also appeared among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2 Many will follow their indecent behavior, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
[i]Reckless, self-centered, they speak abusively of angelic [j]majesties without trembling, 11 whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a demeaning judgment against them before the Lord. 12 But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, using abusive speech where they have no knowledge, will in [k]the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed, 13 suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their [l]deceptions as they feast with you, 14 having eyes full of adultery [m]that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having hearts trained in greed, accursed children; 15 abandoning the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the [n]reward of unrighteousness; 16 but he received a rebuke for his own offense, for a mute donkey, speaking with a human voice, restrained the insanity of the prophet.
17 These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the [o]black darkness has been reserved. 18 For, while speaking out arrogant words of no value they entice by fleshly desires, by indecent behavior, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error, 19 promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what anyone is overcome, by this he is enslaved. 20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22 [p]It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”
17 These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the [o]black darkness has been reserved. 18 For, while speaking out arrogant words of no value they entice by fleshly desires, by indecent behavior, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error, 19 promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what anyone is overcome, by this he is enslaved. 20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22 [p]It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”
These scoffers and mockers are like false prophets, sowing false teachings. Because of them, the truth will be maligned, exploiting the true believers with false words, springs without water, speaking out arrogant words of no value, using abusive speech where they have no knowledge. It is better that they had not known the way of righteousness. These people are like the grumbling generation in the desert that never saw the Promised Land. That negativity is the backdrop to 2 Peter 3.
This does not cut it: "every eye will see him," <<<<<<<<<<DID EVERY EYE SEE HIM RETURN? NO!See Him in what way?Arrive the same way as he went HERE>>>Acts 1:11
Explained perfectly well in the three links in Post 118 for the reader's information.
And according to millions of Christians, he hasn't returned yet. Are they stupid to believe he will soon?
Misinformed. The word is there to inform them.
Jesus said He would return in that generation.And he didn't according to 2Peter 3:4
You ignore the context, as I have pointed out many times.
How is the Bible inconsistent when properly understood? The problem is that you think you have correctly interpreted it when you have not.I haven't interpreted it in anyway at all. I have simply repeated what the scripture actually states, not what I want it to state., unlike YOU!
Yes, you have. You have used a 21st-century understanding. What did it mean to the 1st-century audience of address?
You pay no attention to the meanings found in Scripture, just make it up,Oh ffs stop it!!! YOU are the one that has made up the story of Jesus crucified DEAD and lying stinking in a grave for three days, then rising ALIVE from his grave and going up into the clouds of heaven to then descend back to earth and his return to already have happened in AD 66_70, NOT ME!When you examine prophecy, everything He said did happen in His Olivet Discourse happened.STOP LYING!!!! These were the OT prophecies:
I'm not lying. Stop insinuating that I am a liar. The Olivet Discourse covers many OT prophecies, but the focus of it is what will happen in their generation. Jesus makes numerous prophecies concerning them and that generation. Any yet unfulfilled prophecy, both OT and NT, was to be fulfilled by AD 70.
Isaiah 43:5-6. Gathering all the diaspora (scattered)Jews from around the globe back to Jerusalem. FAIL! And failed twice if you are to be believed.
The true believers were citizens of the heavenly Jerusalem. Thus they were gathered there.
Zechariah 14:9 The god of the Hebrews will be followed universally uniting humanity as one. FAIL! And failed twice if you are to be believed.
It did not fail.
for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
Another word for the kingdom of God is the kingdom of heaven, the heavenly country.
Isaiah 2:4 Usher in a world peace, ending all suffering oppression and illnesses. FAIL! And failed twice if you are to be believed.
Revelation 21:1-4 (NASB)
The New Heaven and Earth
21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among the people, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His [a]people, and God Himself will be among them[b], 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”
21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among the people, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His [a]people, and God Himself will be among them[b], 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”
Revelation 22:14-16 (NASB)
14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they will have the right to the tree of life, and may enter the city by the gates. 15 Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral persons, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you of these things [a]for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”
16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you of these things [a]for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”
The New Heaven and New Earth are with God. And we as Christians are blessed here on Earth, secured in the knowledge of the victory of the Lord Jesus Christ that will translate our earthly bodies to heavenly ones when they physically die. Yet, our faith in Jesus has given each Christian eternal life with God in heaven.
Ezekiel 37:26-28 Build a third temple. FAIL! And failed twice if you are to be believed.
That temple and priesthood were being built during the 1st-century.
Ephesians 2:19-22 (NASB)
19 So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the [a]saints, and are of God’s household, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy [b]temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.
Our temple is with God.
What is your point here? Three signs? What do you want to discuss about them? Please be more specific.I have said that just like YOU keep reposting biblical verse after biblical verse that you believe proves Jesus has already returned, they too contain BIBLE passages and verses that predict Jesus' imminent return that hasn't happened yet. YOU can take what you like from them, I don't care.
What do you want me to take away from your link and discuss? I am not going to squelch every fire you start. Be specific.
He will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” <<<<<<<<<<hasn't happened has it?You're dead mistaken. One verse does not make doctrine.No that will be the bible that is mistaken, then you see, those are not my words, they are words taken directly from your own unreliable scriptures.HERE>>>Acts 1:11Bare assertions.No they are biblical facts.
Your interpretation is not the biblical fat.
I don't care if you don't believe them. I am simply pointing out to you what it is that the scriptures actually DO SAY and not what I want them to say AND CERTAINLY NOT WHAT YOU WANT THEM TO SAY!
How was Jesus to return...IN THE FATHER'S GLORY. How did the Father come in glory, for the umpteenth time?
So. Stop crying and stamping your feet . You haven't proven anything at all and never can.
I can't prove anything to someone who will not be convinced. For others who take this seriously, please investigate further. Perhaps they will understand the truth of the matter of which the Preterist speaks. The Second Coming was in AD 70.
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@Stephen
Are those MILLIONS of Christians that believe the second coming is imminent, stupid?Most are mislead and duped by the Dispensational view of Scripture of Darby and Scofield, or some other futurist view, just like I'm sure you have been influenced in the past.And you don't consider yourself to have been duped? You people do make me grin at times. It is always the other side that has it all wrong isn't it?
Ditto.
You have to give justification for your point of view, not just keep repeating the same verse over and over.
This does not cut it: "every eye will see him," <<<<<<<<<<DID EVERY EYE SEE HIM RETURN? NO!
See Him in what way?
So are they stupid to believe that Jesus return is imminent?
Definitely mislead and brainwashed into a point of view that does not agree with the deeper text.
1. Jesus said He would return in that generation.
2. He said this age would end when He came.
3. He said He would come in the Father's glory. How did the Father come in glory (a point you continually fail to reflect upon because it does not favour your point of view).
4. He said that judgment was near.
5. All the prophetic signs He said would happen have happened in or before AD 70.
On these and many other issues, it is most reasonable to believe He has already come. Every prophetic sign points to His coming in judgment, just as He said they would.
For one thing, I am logically consistent; you are not.Then that means the bible is not consistent (which I agree) as I have only highlighted what it is the bible clearly states. But you just ignore it and I don't care.
It most certainly is consistent. Non-sequiturs. How is the Bible inconsistent when properly understood? The problem is that you think you have correctly interpreted it when you have not.
HERE>>>. “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”2Peter 3:4
I justified Peter's mention of the scoffers and his explanation of why the Lord had not come to that point in time. You ignored the explanation as you usually do, creating more red herrings to make it appear that you are right in your take when in fact you ignore the greater context.
The bible at 2Peter 3:4 justified my question and my claim. You are on the ropes sunshine and have proven nothing.
Bull.
"every eye will see him", <<<<<<<<<<DID EVERY EYE SEE HIM RETURN? NO!Luke 24:51 While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven.
Already explained and, as usual, brushed off by you.
He will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” <<<<<<<<<<hasn't happened has it?
I explained, and you ignored my explanation. Instead, you repeated the same mantra.
He will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” <<<<<<<<<<hasn't happened has it?You're dead mistaken. One verse does not make doctrine.No that will be the bible that is mistaken, then you see, those are not my words, they are words taken directly from your own unreliable scriptures.HERE>>>Acts 1:11
Bare assertions.
You pay no attention to the meanings found in Scripture, just make it up,Oh ffs stop it!!! YOU are the one that has made up the story of Jesus crucified DEAD and lying stinking in a grave for three days, then rising ALIVE from his grave and going up into the clouds of heaven to then descend back to earth and his return to already have happened in AD 66_70, NOT ME!
When you examine prophecy, everything He said did happen in His Olivet Discourse happened.
You have shown not a single piece of evidence that proves a single one of those claims. And if you want to attempt the longest thread on the religion sub forum board,be my guest. But you simply cannot shake off what the bible itself has to say on matter no matter what you consider yourself to be.
Bull. I have indeed. You keep denying it is evidence.
Meanwhile, here are some videos concerning "the signs" that we are all to look out for complete with BIBLE passages and verses that predict Jesus' imminent return.
What is your point here? Three signs? What do you want to discuss about them? Please be more specific.
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@Stephen
Yes, Jesus was taken up into heaven and clouds of glory hide Him from their sight,And this proves what exactly.
That you know very little of what Scripture teaches. His disciples saw Him going into heaven UNTIL the glory cloud hid Him from their sight.
[ The Ascension ] And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were watching, and a cloud took Him up, out of their sight.
Luke 24:50-53
The Ascension
50 And He led them out as far as Bethany, and He lifted His hands and blessed them. 51 While He was blessing them, He parted from them and was carried up into heaven. 52 And they, after worshiping Him, returned to Jerusalem with great joy, 53 and were continually in the temple [z]praising God.
50 And He led them out as far as Bethany, and He lifted His hands and blessed them. 51 While He was blessing them, He parted from them and was carried up into heaven. 52 And they, after worshiping Him, returned to Jerusalem with great joy, 53 and were continually in the temple [z]praising God.
John 17 (NASB)
The High Priestly Prayer
17 Jesus spoke these things; and raising His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, so that the Son may glorify You, 2 just as You gave Him authority over all [a]mankind, so that [b]to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I glorified You on the earth [c]by accomplishing the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now You, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world existed...11 I am no longer going to be in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, so that they may be one just as We are...13 But now I am coming to You;...
17 Jesus spoke these things; and raising His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, so that the Son may glorify You, 2 just as You gave Him authority over all [a]mankind, so that [b]to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I glorified You on the earth [c]by accomplishing the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now You, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world existed...11 I am no longer going to be in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, so that they may be one just as We are...13 But now I am coming to You;...
Clouds signify God's glory, power and/or judgment.
What's more, why do you consider anything you have posted this far , proof of anything?
For one thing, I am logically consistent; you are not. You pay no attention to the meanings found in Scripture, just make it up, and Scripture is its own interpreter. God has a way of verifying what He means. Scripture, when rightly interpreted, comes together beautifully. You woodenly stick to complete literalism, whereas sometimes the passages have a deeper meaning found by other clues, such as with Matthew 16:27-28. I asked you numerous times how did the Fathe come in glory. This you could not answer either because you knew it would damage your case or because you were ignorant of how the Father came in glory in the OT. Jesus said He would come in the Father's glory. Thus, you have to understand what that means.
And you keep avoiding the very obvious point that these people, didn't ask when is the second coming going to happen BECAUSE IT HAD ALREADY HAD HAPPENED! , now did they?
Already happened? Not when Peter's wrote either epistle. Where do you get that outrageous false deduction from? They were scoffing because He had not yet come. They doubted he would come because He was taking so long. Thus Peter corrected that false belief that you so readily propagate.
NO! they asked because it HADN'T HAPPENED WHEN JESUS PROMISED IT WOULD HAPPEN?
You misunderstand when it would happen. You also misunderstand what kind of coming it would be.
HERE>>>. “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”2Peter 3:4The bible at 2Peter 3:4 justified my question and my claim. You are on the ropes sunshine and have proven nothing.
No, 2 Peter justifies the opposite of your bluff, as I pointed out briefly in my last post.
"every eye will see him", <<<<<<<<<<DID EVERY EYE SEE HIM RETURN?
See or understand? Do you see what I mean? Jesus told the High Priest that he would see the Son of Man seated at the Father's right hand in heaven.
Matthew 26
63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, “I place You under oath by the living God, to tell us whether You are the [aa]Christ, the Son of God.” 64 Jesus *said to him, “You have said it yourself. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
From now on the Son would be seated at the right hand of the Father, and they would understand this coming on the clouds of glory as the Father did in AD 70 when the complete fulfilment of Matthew 24 had taken place.
Luke 24:51 While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven.He will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” <<<<<<<<<<hasn't happened has it?
You're dead mistaken. One verse does not make doctrine.
It happened in AD 70.
Part 1 lays the grounds for the discussion.
Part 2 is very revealing. Reader, please read it, starting at.
"For first century Jews familiar with Torah and the prophets, the “cloud” represented the presence of Jehovah. And, in the context of the ascension and the Kingdom in Acts 1, it would have signified the arrival of Messiah into the presence of Jehovah in Zion. This is precisely the connection that Peter makes.
Acts 2:34-36
For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.” Therefore, let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ – this Jesus whom you crucified."
Read down to,
1 Timothy 3:16
Part 3 states,
"1. He was received by a cloud.
2. He was taken up in glory, to enter into his glory.
3. He was taken up while blessing his disciples.
Therefore, Jesus had to return in “in like manner”."
Are those MILLIONS of Christians that believe the second coming is imminent, stupid?
Most are mislead and duped by the Dispensational view of Scripture of Darby and Scofield, or some other futurist view, just like I'm sure you have been influenced in the past.
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@Stephen
You said "no show."And so does the bible.
No, it does not. You misinterpret the Second Coming and have tunnel vision and a spirit that does not understand spiritual truths.
HERE>>>. “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”2Peter 3:4The bible at 2Peter 3:4 justified my question and my claim. You are on the ropes sunshine and have proven nothing.
The Bible does not justify your claim at all. Don Preston, The Elements Shall Melt with Fervent Heat, p. 1, makes the case very clear, to understand 2 Peter you need to understand the purpose of the epistle.
And Peter's answer to such scoffers who claimed Jesus' Second Coming was a no-show was 2 Peter 1:16-21, a passage that deals with Jesus' transfiguration. Peter, James and John witnessed Jesus transformed in the glory of the Father when the cloud enveloped Jesus on the mountain. They understood what the glory of the Father looked like and what the transformation during the Second Coming was about. It was about the change in the Old Covenant system of worship (what their heaven and earth focused around, to the better New Covenant way at the end of the age). That very same passage you keep quoting, Matthew 16:27-28 (see Mark 9:1), deals with the transfiguration. You would do well to read the first six pages of the book under the link above.
Mark 9:9
9 When they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead.”
What did the vision mean? See p.5.
oldest propaganda trick goingHow do you keep missing this princess>Peter, not to mention those that took him to task admitted that the Christ hadn't return and this is the reason he was forced to move the goal posts from " a generation " to a thousand years!<<<<< this is the "oldest propaganda trick" that has been peddled for TWO THOUSAND YEARS!!!!And I see that you are still no closer to starting your own thread ..I posted those links for you and you decided you didn't want to even look at them never mind debunk them.Indeed, your response to those links was to asked me " what am I supposed to do with them"?I told you then, ` do what you like' I am just showing you that the same verses can and are used to "prove" the opposite to what you claim`.I also said 'I don't care what you do with them or glean from them. It makes absolutely no difference to me.You post reems of links.Nope, just two. And you ignored them and I don't care.The facts are that this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Revelation 1:7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. " <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< did not and has not happened!
Yes, coming with the clouds of glory, in the same manner in which the Father came in judgment in the OT.
All the tribes of the LAND understood He was in the glory of the Father in heaven bringing judgment upon that generation.
Who are those tribes? The tribes refer to the tribes of Israel.
Zechariah 9:1 (NASB)
Prophecies against Neighboring Nations
9 The pronouncement of the word of the Lord is against the land of Hadrach, with Damascus as its resting place (for the eyes of mankind, especially of all the tribes of Israel, are toward the Lord),
9 The pronouncement of the word of the Lord is against the land of Hadrach, with Damascus as its resting place (for the eyes of mankind, especially of all the tribes of Israel, are toward the Lord),
Revelation 21:12 (NASB)
Zechariah 12:10-14
10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem [h]the Spirit of grace and of pleading, so that they will look at Me whom they pierced; and they will mourn for Him, like one mourning for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. 11 On that day the mourning in Jerusalem will be great, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the [i]plain of [j]Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, every family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself and their wives by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Levi by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself and their wives by themselves; 14 all the families that are left, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves.
As in Revelation, you find in the original OT prophecy each of the tribes of Israel weeping and mourning.
But that is not all. The other part of the verse comes from Daniel 7:13-14, and the scene is a heavenly one in which the Son of Man comes before the Father and receives glory and honour, the glory and honour of the Father.
Revelation 1:17a
Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him,
Daniel 7:13-14 (NASB)
The Son of Man Presented
13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a son of man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 And to Him was given dominion,
Honor, and [a]a kingdom,
So that all the peoples, nations, and populations of all [b]languages
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.
Where is the Son of Man coming? He is coming before the Father in heaven. During the judgment of Jerusalem and Judah in AD 70, every eye would see or understand what John referred to in Revelation 1:17 was Daniel 7:13-14. If that was not enough, Jesus even foretold the Chief Priest that he would see (understand) the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Father and coming on clouds of heaven (judgment).
Jesus *said to him, “You have said it yourself. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
And to follow Revelation, further along, we see the fulfillment of the vision in Daniel 7:13-14 when Jesus comes into His kingdom.
And neither has this >>>>>>>>>>>Acts 1:11 And said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”
Yes, Jesus was taken up into heaven and clouds of glory hide Him from their sight, and He would come in the same glory cloud but this time in judgment in AD 70. As the Father judged the nation, so too the Son judged the nation, for what is true and applied to God the Father is true and applied of God the Son. I asked you before, How did the Father judge nations in the OT? Jesus said He would come in the glory of the Father. Even if Stephen cannot understand this, please reader be aware that the Father never physically was seen, just the glory cloud of His presence. Clouds were synonymous with judgement.
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