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@Castin
@drafterman
"It is abundantly clear that not only does the mod team have no experience moderating, they have no conception of it, either." -drafterman
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@Castin
@KingLaddy01
"DDO established a culture that had less and less of a passion for serious debating, but would remain interested in forum activity. This was carried on to here, and it will not be a serious debate site as long as it exists." -KingLaddy01
[Source]
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@Castin
@3RU7AL
"The point is that the rules, as they are stated, are unclear (too subjective) and enforcement appears to be arbitrary." -3ru7al
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@Vader
We would all support ourselves lol
Despite the common pirate theory that "every pirate only ever votes for himself," there are some of us who have learned the burden of leadership is not always desirable.
I don't envy the mods who have to handle this mess. Which is part of why I think a better blocking feature, allowing users to delete their own content and adding more automated restrictions would greatly alleviate the need for moderation by giving more user control to block out the trolls.
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Which, I beleive, brings us full circle back to drafterman's current profile picture and the topic of this thread.Action may not have been deemed appropriate in some of those cases.
Despite the hypothetical story that people are mad at the mods for being too harsh, I'm seeing the exact opposite complaint very consistently throughout this thread and all other currently active threads.
Most people seem to want more moderation, but also consistent moderation. Instead of seeing the same people get slapped with temp bans every week, lets try heading the problem off at the pass by just deleting obvious troll posts and unnecessary personal attacks when they happen.
I'll differ with drafterman in that I'm not opposed to having a MEEP to discuss altering this policy. But a MEEP may be pointless if it just degrades into a massive argument thread.
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I report a lot of stuff that either doesn't ever got looked at (just stays flagged forever) or is eventually marked "all reports have been handled" without any apparent action having been taken....unreported category of reportable things. It would be great if more people reported...
Plus, the limit of reporting 10 things a day is pretty restrictive. I could report every violation I see and run out of reports in about ten minutes.
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@Castin
...one of the most heated complaints from members is that mods are heavy-handed and oppressive tyrants...
Again; I already pointed out that I don't buy this claim. Mods keep saying that people make this complaint, but I can't find anyone who actually IS making this complaint, other than a handful of obviously simplistic trolls from a few months back.
The real complaint is a lack of consistency. Some rules are enforced, some aren't. Some users get punished, some don't. Some posts get deleted, some don't. Sometimes moderators say the CoC is the only set of rules, some times they make up stuff from outside the CoC. Some people seem to get smacked down for minor stuff, while others are able to run amok with obvious trolling as their only contribution to the site. Emphasis on the forums is wayyyyy too heavy, while debates seem entirely unmoderated, comment sections dissolve into borderline psychotic hissy-fits and votes get randomly deleted for subjective reasons. The whole site is a s--tshow of random and unpredictable enforcement in a sea of endless trolling.
I laid out what I believe the objections we all agree upon are, and as of yet nobody has disputed any of those, nor has any convincing rebuttal from any moderator made an appearance.
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I keep hearing this tall tale about how at some point in the undisclosed past, there was some great revolt of users who rebelled against the moderators for deleting offensive posts.
However, the best examples the mods have provided of this supposed rebellion seem to be little more than a few trolls complaining that their troll posts got the axe. Some of said trolls don't even seem to use this site anymore.
I'm not convinced. Trolls who get what they deserve are expected to complain. But this is a debate website, not 4chan. The argument should go to the intelligent users who have the capability to behave in a mature fashion, not trolls who whine loudly enough to make the mods feel bad.
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Frankly, this is a pretty good point. If posts that are illegal, threatening or pornographic can be deleted without needing to preserve "evidence" of the post, then there really isn't much of a case to be made that we need an eternal record of someone using a naughty word.If it was illegal content, or pornographic content, this wouldn't even be a discussion.
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@Castin
@drafterman
Completely agree. I voiced the same opinion over here.If they disapproved of it, they should have deleted it.
If you delete it, you destroy evidence.
If you really care about that (and that isn't the argument bsh1 gave), then implement a moderator tool to "censor" posts which violate the rules. The general public would be restricted from seeing the inappropriate content, while moderators would still retain access to said content and could use it as "evidence" later if needed.
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@RationalMadman
@Vader
@KingLaddy01
Can I play "devil's advocate" and/or the "voice of reason" for a moment? (This will probably blow up in my face.)
I know that there is some bad blood going on here. You guys don't like RM, and RM doesn't seem to like you much either. I'm sure everyone has their reasons.
However, although each of us are approaching it in different ways, it looks like we are all trying to draw attention to several of the same issues;
- Moderation on this site has a very poor reputation, with many perceptions that moderation actions are unfair, unjustified, poorly explained, inconsistent or outright immoral.
- The community is shrinking and many angry users are leaving the site.
- Most users are unwilling to donate money to keep the site running, while ironically, the small pool of users who do donate are actually opponents of the current moderation policies.
- Current moderation policy, no matter what logic is offered to defend it, has failed to address serious problems with trolling and harassment.
- The majority of the community is made up of former DDO users, who either intentionally or inadvertently imported a lot of the same bad behavior which caused DDO to collapse.
Since we mostly seem to agree on these points, perhaps it would be best to focus this thread on communicating these issues and leave the old DDO drama at the door?
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1. Kingladdy made those arguments originally. I merely agree with them, because simple observation of this community and it's behavior implies the truth of his assessment....the kind of arguments you're making are best addressed to the community as a whole, not just to me as a moderator.
2. I never actually addressed you at all. You joined this thread of your own violition.
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Which brings us full circle back to what Kingladdy and I were discussing earlier in this thread......the community has quite forcefully asked moderation not to do this.
DDO established a culture that had less and less of a passion for serious debating, but would remain interested in forum activity. This was carried on to here, and it will not be a serious debate site as long as it exists.
Debateart is waning in its userbase by the week. From the beginning it was an obscure refugee camp for DDO users, and one that hasn't even attracted every single important member to the site. Now, people have begun to flee either due to firmly disapproving of moderation, or realizing that the quality discourse on this site does not even closely resemble the level that DDO had even in it's dying days, let alone years ago when DDO was a hub for discussion, and not a site where activity is turned on/off like a switch.
Do you want this to be a serious debate website?Or do you want it to be a life support system for the dying DDO community?
At this point, I frankly agree with KingLaddy. This site is just DDO v2.0, which was created to be a refugee camp for a handful of users that fled from the original DDO. That same group of people is the same group that only posts on the forums, ignores the debates and feels that they should be allowed to insult other users with no meaningful consequence. This is "the community" that doesn't want their posts to get deleted.
That group of users will never get any larger than it is now, but it will shrink as people get frustrated and lose faith in a system that seems to be failing them. Meanwhile, no new users from outside the pool of fromer DDO users can be attracted to the site, because non-DDO users like myself step in here, get a good look at what is going on, and head straight for the door.
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Another interesting point of note here...
I've seen the owner of the site complain that nobody is donating money.
And meanwhile, the only two users who I have seen say that they did donate money were two users that got slapped with temp bans.
And meanwhile, the only two users who I have seen say that they did donate money were two users that got slapped with temp bans.
Make of that what you will.
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@Plisken
I would think it practical to allow users to delete their own content regardless of any reporting.Is it practical to give users permission to delete their own content upon it being reported by someone else?
Most modern websites allow users to delete content they post to the site whenever they wish.
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I didn't mention "restraining orders" in my rant, but based on my experience in attempting to use one to stop a troll who was harassing me, I'm inclined to believe they are worthless. I'm not saying they should be removed from the spectrum of options, but leaning more heavily on them is definitely NOT the solution to the problems this site is facing.
Again; When someone breaks the rules, just delete the post.
Why preserve actions that violate the rules? The most obvious consequence of violating the rules should be for an authority to reverse the inappropriate action.
If someone robs a bank, they don't get to take the money to jail with them. But letting someone post nasty insults, banning them for the insults and leaving the insults online is like sending the bank robber to jail with the money.
Most of these trolls probably don't care about temp bans or "restraining orders" when they still get to keep coming back and insulting the same users over and over again.
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@Vader
Some people just don't have the time to make huge debates with school and stuff.
To be fair, I do understand that real life obligations take priority over an internet website.
But again, this brings us back to the fact that this site is being treated as more of a life support machine for the last dying remnants of the DDO community, rather than its own independent project.
Under any normal circumstance, if people don't have time to debate, they wouldn't be on a debate website in the first place. But this isn't really a debate website, and most of these people aren't really here to debate at all... which is why they have plenty of time to accrue thousands of forum posts.
Not to mention that a lack of time has not prevented people from creating an abundance of completely absurd debates... trees are better than people, the sun is god, should so and so kill himself, etc.
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@KingLaddy01
- DDO established a culture that had less and less of a passion for serious debating, but would remain interested in forum activity. This was carried on to here...
That would explain a lot.
Debateart is waning in its userbase by the week. From the beginning it was an obscure refugee camp for DDO users, and one that hasn't even attracted every single important member to the site. Now, people have begun to flee either due to firmly disapproving of moderation, or realizing that the quality discourse on this site...
You make a good case, and I have to agree.
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@KingLaddy01
If you are not biased, then why did you believe that him being banned was a poor decision?
In regards to the specific decision you are talking about (the 2-day ban, not the current 10-day one), I believe that RM himself agreed that he deserved to be banned in that specific circumstance (at least initially, before a certain moderator began adding snarky responses to the thread). RM actually told me I was wrong to object.
My real problem with the ban is with the moderators. They act selectively against users who are problematic for them and/or who are unpopular with the community. And mainly even in those cases, it is usually in regards to behavior that takes place here on the forums.
Equally bad behavior, and even worse behavior, is often completely overlooked when the victim is a relatively "minor player" on the site, or if the behavior was mostly within the context of a debate/comment section.
What mystifies me most, is that "verbal warnings" and "temp bans" seem to be the only tools the moderators are ever willing to even consider, much less utilize. If someone does something that breaks the rules, I believe there should be an immediate reaction to rectify the situation. If I make a post insulting someone, then the post should get deleted ASAP. I could say the most horrible things possible about you right now, and I would likely get a verbal warning (at most), while the horrible comments themselves would still be preserved here for all eternity. Why should actions that violate the rules be preserved that way? Just delete them. If statements that violate the CoC got deleted, people would be less likely to such things in the first place.
The only thing the mods will delete are votes. And even that is sketchy, as some votes that blatantly violate the rules are left intact, while others get deleted for highly subjective reasons. And if someone votes an hour before the debate closes and a moderator can't get to it in time? Oh well. Tough luck.
On top of all else, the moderators actually encourage (and some times commit themselves) some of the most problematic issues that I've observed, such as allowing obvious trolls to harass people who vote against them.
Basically, my issue is with the "spectrum of force" options that the moderators currently use. Their options are basically do nothing, or temp ban. Nothing is the most common option, with only the most outrageously severe repeat trouble makers getting petty temp bans that serve no real purpose. There should be a TON more options in between those two points, as well as beyond those two points. And the fact that most bad behavior is simply ignored or given a verbal warning is the reason why this place is basically a troll nest of the worst order.
I will give the moderators one thing; I recently appealed a moderator decision that I disagreed with, Virtuoso agreed to reconsider and eventually made the right call. That gives me a minor ray of hope. But it is a small one against the mountain of problems this site faces.
If this community really wants the drama to stop (and thats a big IF) then the only way that can ever happen is with better moderation. Smaller offenses need to be handled quickly with small responses, such as deleting rude comments. Bigger offenses need to be dealt with more harshly, without months of verbal warnings proceeding actual action. And frankly, certain users who do nothing but troll the forums without ever contributing to an actual debate need to face the very real possibility of a permanent banhammering.
Really what it boils down to is this:
Do you want this to be a serious debate website?
Or do you want it to be a life support system for the dying DDO community?
Do you want this to be a serious debate website?
Or do you want it to be a life support system for the dying DDO community?
Because you obviously can't have both.
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Perhaps.
But I still think my viewpoint as a non-DDO user is valuable here. I'm not biased for or against anyone because of past behavior.
But I still think my viewpoint as a non-DDO user is valuable here. I'm not biased for or against anyone because of past behavior.
What I'm seeing here and now, at this exact moment, is still one giant mess of people all trolling and harassing each other on a daily basis, for no immediately apparent reason, and no benefit.
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I should also probably clarify this; I was never a DDO user.
I know that almost everyone in this community was a former DDO user. Most of you have "history" (or "baggage") with each other. I don't.
I showed up one day, looking for a serious debate site where intelligent people were interested in discussing the most relevant topics of our day.
Instead I seem to have stepped into a shitstorm of half-insane internet drama with intermittent breaks for rap battles.
So I guess the best way to explain my perspective is this; Being pissed off about one person on this site is a lot like being pissed off that your car has a flat tire when the gas tank is on fire.
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@Vader
...a hypocrite crybaby Eminem wanna be who calls people bullies yet doxxes others...
I mean... doesn't that describe about half the users of this site though?
Seriously, almost everyone on here claims to be a rapper, musician, lyricist, poet, song writer, etc, etc, etc.
And every other day we have a new rap battle. But rarely any serious debates.
Seriously, almost everyone on here claims to be a rapper, musician, lyricist, poet, song writer, etc, etc, etc.
And every other day we have a new rap battle. But rarely any serious debates.
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You guys don't seem to like him much, but I will say he is one of the few people on this site who has treated me respectfully.
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@Vader
@KingLaddy01
@supa;
Does Drama engage you more in the forums tho?
Me personally? No. I avoid the forums except to give feedback on the problems with the site. You may recall that I dropped out of a forum mafia game I was considering because I didn't trust this site enough to want to participate anymore.
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@kingladdy01;
Your best buddy seems to love doing that
I assume you are talking about RM? From what I hear, he is quitting the site once his ban is over. But maybe thats just a rumor. Not like I can ask him, since I have no communication with him beyond this site.
But actually, I was inferring toward another user of this site. Several users, all of the same ideology actually. And I've seen a certain moderator do it too. The mods say that arguing with people about their votes is a good thing, but I've rarely ever seen it result in anything positive. People rarely say much beyond "I clearly won and you are an idiot for voting against me!" (Or something very similar to that effect.)
Ramshutu is about the only person on this site who will discuss his vote and the reason for said vote in a reasonable manner, even offering constructive feedback for those looking to improve their debating skills. If I disagree with his reasoning on a vote, I'll discuss it with him and can expect a reasonable response (if not a response I'll like). Most other users will either say nothing about votes (which is fine) or fly into a berserker rage leading to childish insults being hurled in every direction (which shouldn't be okay).
This isn't an active site. The future is inevitable, people will tire of the site's moderation and the vestiges of the DDO community will be in shambles.
I definitely agree with you on this part. Activity has already visibly declined in the short time I've been using this site.
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I'm sure drama seems "good" to the majority of users who stick mostly or entirely to the forums.
It really has no benefit for the actual debates. People throwing giant hissy-fits when someone votes against them, harassment of certain users and obvious troll debates with no intellectual value are serious problems on this site.
It really has no benefit for the actual debates. People throwing giant hissy-fits when someone votes against them, harassment of certain users and obvious troll debates with no intellectual value are serious problems on this site.
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@Vader
If I'm ever banned, please initiate a very large hyper-dramatic public thread demanding answers.
Infer that whatever answer you get is a lie.
Infer that whatever answer you get is a lie.
Then accuse the mods of stealing your sandwich.
Thank you in advance.
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@drafterman
Part of the problem.
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I agree.Trials foster a culture of mob rule, and are thus counterproductive to the interests of fairness, order, and effective site administration.
However, I also believe the current moderators are counterproductive to the interests of fairness, order, and effective site administration.
Compromise; Moderator decisions could be subject to an appeals system in which in which a group of non-moderators can overturn a moderator decision. It would be a sort of "peer review" system.
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I am joining the moderator side solely because of...
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I would just like to throw in that the banned users aren't the only ones who have been less active lately. My distrust of the mods has also made me less active on the site.
The community on this site is very small. I really don't think it can afford to run people off by letting the mods alienate parts of the user base.
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@blamonkey
If you want to send me a PM I might take the time to type up a detailed explanation (it is a very long story). But I'm not going to continue to discuss it on this forum since a certain moderator treats every opinion shared here as an opportunity to talk down to people who can't block him.
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I imagine part of the hold up is that one of the people who signed up to play is currently banned...
And honestly, with all the recent drama involving moderators and multiple people getting smacked with the ban hammer in a short span of time... I think I'm going to drop out of this game before it gets started. Sorry folks, but my life has enough drama without adding to it.
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@3RU7AL
Fair enough. Except I don't think the judgement used would be adequately described as "best" in this case.It would be like telling all police officers, "use your best judgment" and then expecting uniform enforcement.
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@3RU7AL
I think improving the rules would help. But truly good moderators would still be able to function effectively even with poorly written rules. I don't believe that is happening right now.
Also,
Who do you think created the rules?
What he said.
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@3RU7AL
Why not?
Because of what you said HERE;
The point is that the rules, as they are stated, are unclear (too subjective) and enforcement appears to be arbitrary.[...]I've seen many RFDs that are left standing that do not meet these requirements and many that are struck down.There doesn't seem to be any consistency one way or another. Even the mods seem to inject personal opinion into their decisions to remove a particular vote and then let another similar vote stand.
You pretty much summarized my sentiments exactly, except that I don't believe the problem is limited exclusively to removal of votes, but other decisions as well.
On the whole I've observed more bad decisions than good ones, and when combined with the fact that one particular moderator treats this forum as an opportunity to talk down to anyone who feels this way, that pretty much seals my vote.
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@Ramshutu
@3RU7AL
The issue here is that really any attempt to modify or change vote moderation is - to a greater or lesser extent - mostly missing the point and simply polishing the deck chairs on the titanic.
Agreed.
...there seems to be an inability for people to be able cope with people voting against them, even if those people are voting in good faith.
Agreed.
The point is that the rules, as they are stated, are unclear (too subjective) and enforcement appears to be arbitrary.[...]I've seen many RFDs that are left standing that do not meet these requirements and many that are struck down.There doesn't seem to be any consistency one way or another. Even the mods seem to inject personal opinion into their decisions to remove a particular vote and then let another similar vote stand.
Agreed.
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@Mharman
Mike: sure.
All others: NO.
Also, Tejretics should be on this vote as well. I don't approve of him either.
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@bsh1
Why am I still being tagged in this discussion? I never asked you to explain your decision, nor did I ever give any indication that I was seeking any kind of response from you at all.
In fact, I'm going to follow Drafterman's lead on this and ask that you discontinue any further attempts to needlessly tag me in your content.
You are doing a great job alienating users of this site. Keep up the good work.
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Unrelated fun fact; Kayne West is the only man on earth to be called a "Jackass" by TWO sitting U.S. Presidents, one from each major party.
On topic; Sorry to hear about another bad moderator decision on this site.
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@DebateArt.com
@bsh1
Such as? Moderation cannot address concerns which are not brought to our attention.
You know what I'm referring to, as we have discussed it privately.
Again, I did it privately, as opposed to throwing a public hissy fit over it or harassing someone.
I certainly have no objection to the proposal Drafterman made in that post; in fact, it's quite a nice idea.
Great. Lets hope it gets implemented then.
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@RationalMadman
you don't know the history when I say I am anti-drafterman-movement.
I admit I don't know the background on that. I also can't really offer an opinion on it.
However, his idea that I liked to was a good one. I believe it will help to address the poor decisions made by moderators and make both voters and debaters a lot happier about votes in the long run.
If moderators can't just nuke votes without warning, but have to give the voter a chance to correct any shortcomings, then it makes life a lot easier for the voter and also gives the debater a chance to dispute anything specific about the vote they may have a legitimate reason to dispute. After the vote has been corrected and allowed to stand, no further (public) bickering over the vote should be allowed.
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@RationalMadman
I didn't say you did. I was referring to a different situation.I have never once blamed moderation on DarC for corruption neither in votes nor in site-moderating thus far.
As I did admit, I think the moderators on this site are doing a poor job overall, but that opinion is in relation to situations I have experienced. Not situations involving anyone else.
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@DebateArt.com
The actual problem with voting on this site is that whenever a debater sees a vote which was against them, they automatically jump to the conclusion that the vote was "unfair" and that the voter "lied" about something they said.
They rarely consider the possibility that their argument may have been interpreted in a different way than they intended (possibly because they wrote it poorly or because it was simply a bad argument).
And even after a moderator has evaluated a vote and deemed it appropriate, they merely insist the moderators must be "biased" or "corrupt" in some way. This often happens when atheists don't like votes which were cast by "Theists" (as they derisively call us). I always find this very ironic, because most of the moderators on this site are atheists themselves, so if they were biased, it certainly wouldn't be in favor of any "Theists" around here.
I also think moderation on this site is poor and many bad decisions have been made by the moderators. But the difference is that I don't throw a massive public hissy fit over it every time I witness it, nor do I start harassing people that voted against me.
Bottom line; Nobody around here has any tolerance for votes they merely disagree with, and there are no rules preventing debaters from arguing with or harassing voters they don't like.
My vote on this idea is NO. I don't even know how this idea was conceived, as it does nothing to address any actual problem that currently exists.
What you should implement is the suggestion that Drafterman made HERE.
Anything that affects the same winrate and/or rating (especially rating) needs to be identically harshly moderated.
I also agree with what RM said here. If a debate is ruled a "troll" debate, then it should no longer count toward ratings. If something counts toward ratings, it should be required to abide by the same rules as every other rated debate.
We also need some sort of objective standard to determine which debates are "troll debates" and which aren't. It shouldn't just be a moderator's personal opinion.
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@Castin
Er, I felt like your short statement was sufficient enough.
Crap though, if you have been awake for 30 hours and you aren't camping the fire giant hideout in Everquest, you should probably go to bed.
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@Castin
Debating in the forums is debate. It's thread debate.
Back in my day we just called that a flame war.
If that's your thing, cool, whatever I guess.
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@Castin
Well, you tell me;
Why even participate in a debate website if you plan to ignore the main feature of the site?
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The debates are nothing more than a popularity contest.
They sometimes are, but I could not disagree more strongly with the sentiment that they usually are.
The FORUM is a popularity contest, with a massive side-order of trolling.
Seriously, it is really sad how many users of this site do nothing but post on the forum while ignoring the debates entirely. Why even participate in a debate website if you plan to ignore the main feature of the site? Just go find some generic forum to troll. There has to be at least a few million to choose from.
Seriously, it is really sad how many users of this site do nothing but post on the forum while ignoring the debates entirely. Why even participate in a debate website if you plan to ignore the main feature of the site? Just go find some generic forum to troll. There has to be at least a few million to choose from.
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